The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[WPM]

Can you talk like a man,?
If so let's debate.

Now that it has been shown that you have no Scripture, this is all you have: infantile chides, insults and ad hominem. We are seeing the death throes a Pretrib on this thread. You have no rebuttal to Posttrib or Amil.

 

[WPM]

And that illustrates the problem. He gives opinions with vague explanations and thinks that's enough to prove his case. It's completely ridiculous.

Exactly. That is all they have. All Doug has is his faulty charts. That sums up what we are engaging with.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ok thanks.
Just letting you know my overall position.

Which you had already done several times. What I don't know is how and why you believe what you do because you won't clearly show that using scripture.

...which obviously you trample and don't care about.

That's an obvious lie because I wouldn't ask you to exegete scripture and show me exactly how and why you believe what you do if I didn't care about it.

I am not really interested in talking to you either.

I never said I'm not interested in talking to you. Slow down and read what I actually say. I would like for each of us to show clearly how and why we each believe what we do. Is that too much to ask? In the original posts of the thread WPM explained clearly how and why he believes what he does using scripture and we each have done the same several times since. I wish you would do the same.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Exactly. That is all they have. All Doug has is his faulty charts. That sums up what we are engaging with.

They think we are just throwing insults around despite the fact that we are asking them repeatedly to exegete scripture so we can see exactly how and why they believe what they do. But, most of them don't even try to do that. Why should we just take their word for it when they make claims? I wouldn't expect anyone to believe anything I say if I never backed it up with scripture and neither should they.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You have been taught wrong. The bride is not gathered until Revelation 19, at the one and only future climatic return of Christ, thus demolishing your thesis. Revelation 19:7-10 tells us, “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

His “wife” is said to have “made herself ready.”

Ready, “for the marriage of the Lamb.” Whilst we (the Church) have been betrothed to Christ in salvation, the marriage will not be finally consummated until the bridegroom comes.

The marriage union is the glorification feat where we are eternally changed in order to enjoy God forever – this is the final act of redemption. This is the marriage of the Lamb. In short, a prepared bride is made ready to unite with a prepared bridegroom. For this climactic event she is arrayed in the righteousness of Christ. This is her worthiness for marriage.

Exactly. They try to claim that the marriage has already occurred at that point, when the reality is that it has not yet occurred, but instead the bride is ready for the marriage at that point. This is just another of many examples of how they try to change scripture to fit their doctrine.

They interpret Matthew 25:1-13 the same way even though the parable is about the coming of the Son of man which Jesus very clearly said would occur "AFTER the tribulation of those days" (Matthew 24:29-31).

 

[WPM]

Are you kidding me? When do you plan on ever actually debating? Debating involves exegeting scripture so that people can be clear about how and why you believe what you do. You NEVER do that. How about you start now?


You are a complete hypocrite. All you do here is talk trash and you've never exegeted even one word of scripture so far. Is it too much to ask you to do that?

You should honestly take this is a great compliment. They cannot refute the biblical message so all they have is to attack the messenger.

 

[WPM]

Tribulations and Wrath FROM Heaven UPON the all the living “inhabitants” upon the face of the Earth is a 7 year period of time.

Absolutely God protects Christians those IN Christ…
The same way God protected Noah and his family…raising them UP off the Face of the Earth…BeFORE the Earth is Destroyed…!!



Your own merit is faulty. You are what you accuse. Gaslighter.

How about actually showing us any scripture the teaches a rapture of the Church followed by a 7 years trib followed by a 3rd coming, instead of always voicing personal opinions?

Here is your big opportunity to actually prove that there is actual hard Scripture that teaches your beliefs or expose by your avoidance that you actually are advocating false teaching. It is one of the other. Time to bring your evidence to the table.

 

[Douggg]

Exactly. That is all they have. All Doug has is his faulty charts. That sums up what we are engaging with.

What the bible has is its end times time frames - which the time frames on my charts come from.

Amils view all of the these time frames as metaphoric. Therefore Amils cannot make timeline charts containing these...

 

[WPM]

I don’t have a one-liner toddler version for you.

That sums up the thrust of your biblical evidence. It is nonexistent. All you have is ad hominem.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I do not know what you're trying to say here.

Neither does he.

 

[Douggg]

Yes if someone is amil or preterest, I need a heads up.
Otherwise I am at a disadvantage thinking I am on board with their position. When in actuality I tend to leave those two categories to their own discussion.
( grand canyon leaps are a waste of time, and most have such a huge investment in their deal, nobody, or the Bible is going to make a sliver of difference to their investment)

Based on my own discussion boards experience of over 20 years, there are two groups that can't be reasoned with...
(1) partial preterists (2) Amils

One of the positives that has come out of this thread is the total exposure of Amils lack of ability to make timeline charts because of their rejection of the end times times frames given in the bible as literal.

 

[WPM]

What the bible has is its end times time frames - which the time frames on my charts come from.

Amils view all of the these time frames as metaphoric. Therefore Amils cannot make timeline charts containing these...


View attachment 48074

You cannot even address simple questions that challenge your theology . I've asked you several questions that (i believe) expose your understanding of Daniel 9. You have ducked around them every time. You have to! I believe your whole timeframe is messed up. Your charts are therefore faulty.

1. Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
2. Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
3. Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?
4. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9?
5. Where in Daniel 9 does it tell us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown?
6. Where is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9?
7. Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?
8. Where does it say that antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel in Daniel 9?
9. Where are the tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9?
10. Where does it mention the rebuilding of a third temple?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What the bible has is its end times time frames - which the time frames on my charts come from.

Amils view all of the these time frames as metaphoric. Therefore Amils cannot make timeline charts containing these...

Doug, you need to repent of your lies. You are trying to make it look as if we believe those time periods are fictional, but that is not the case. For example, we acknowledge that the thousand years has a beginning and ending, but we just don't see it as a literal thousand years just as the references to "a thousand generations" in the OT are not literal or the reference to the "cattle on a thousand hills".

 

[WPM]

Based on my own discussion boards experience of over 20 years, there are two groups that can't be reasoned with...
(1) partial preterists (2) Amils

That is because they are 2 groups that expose your error!!! That is why you struggle so much answering their questions.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Based on my own discussion boards experience of over 20 years, there are two groups that can't be reasoned with...
(1) partial preterists (2) Amils

How do you imagine that you can be reasoned with when all you do when asked to exegete scripture and CLEARLY show how and why you believe what you do, you respond with vague comments and charts? That's not how to exegete scripture and is not how to have a serious discussion about scripture. Your dream is that people would just post charts back and forth all day, but it's never going to happen.

 

[WPM]

How do you imagine that you can be reasoned with when all you do when asked to exegete scripure and CLEARLY show how and why you believe what you do, you respond with vague comments and charts? That's not how to exegete scripture and is not how to have a serious discussion about scripture.

He doesn't know how to do that. That is why he hides behind his charts. See if he can answer the questions I just presented, for about the fourth time. Don't hold your breath! They expose his error.

 

[WPM]

Neither does he.

The reason why they have got so vindictive is because they're frustrated. They are frustrated because every Scripture they twist is exposed on this thread. All they have now is ad hominem. The reader will see this.

 

[Taken]

How about actually showing us any scripture the teaches a rapture …

1 Thes 4
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We-
Them-
Caught Up-
Clouds-
Air-
Lord-
We, Them, Lord, together forever.

of the Church

1 Thes 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thes 4:
[17] Then we which are alive …

Bodily dead IN CHRIST rise up First -
Bodily alive IN CHRIST rise up Secondly -

followed by

Rom 1
[18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

a 7 years trib

Rev 11:
[2] But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Gentiles shall tread holy city ~
Forty two months -

Rev 11:
[3] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and
threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Power given from “I”..”MY” -
Power given to “I, My” two witnesses -
Power given for 1,260 days -

followed by a 3rd coming,

“3rd coming” are your words. Not my job to regard or to explain your words.

* Son of Man Came to Earth ONCE, (Humble)
* Son of Man Returns to Earth ONCE, (with Power)

instead of always voicing personal opinions?

You have ZERO authority to voice your opinion while dictating others should not.

Regarding Spiritual Opinions…I WILL voice my Personal Opinion of MY Personal Relationship with the Lord God Almighty without consideration of “your permission”.

If YOU are unlearned (which you repeatedly reveal) in Scriptural Teaching of Gods Word…OF His revealing, His offering, His Way….FOR an individual to ESCAPE being subject to suffering Gods TRIBULATIONS and WRATH God SHALL send down from Heaven…

you most certainly would be without understanding of:
WHO, WHAT, WHY, WHEN, HOW, regarding Gods “ESCAPE” plan (From Gods TRIBULATIONS and WRATH).


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

The reason why they have got so vindictive is because they're frustrated.

THIS is the TITLE of THIS THREAD…—->

The absurdity of Pretrib logic

THAT ^ is NOT simply a disagreement with men who Trust to Believe in a RAPTURE, and its timing….

It IS:
1) A false claim pretrib believers are BASING their spiritual BELIEF in “LOGIC”.
2) A personal vindictive attack that their Belief IS absurd.

The door swings both ways…When you are the first to sling crap, don’t be surprised if some of that crap splashes back upon yourself.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Because the nature of the two witnesses coming back to life is not that of the rapture/resurrection which is redemption of the bodies of believers. The rapture/resurrection change into eternal, incorruptible bodies with happen in the twinkling of an eye, at the shout of Jesus, with voice of the archangel, and trump of God.

11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.



Actually I moved from being pre-trib to being anytime rapture view. Pre-trib maintains that the rapture must happen before the 70th week starts. Differently, I maintain that the rapture must happen before the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood, anytime between now and then.

Pre-trib Rapture view is before the covenant is confirm for one week (seven years) in Daniel 9:27.

Anytime Rapture view is anytime before the Antichrist's act of going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God in 2Thesslaonains2:4.

Thank you for a thoughtful post.