The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Douggg]

I suppose you believe the time needed is about one thousand years?

no.

Yet Paul writes the resurrection from the graves shall be in a moment and twinkling of an eye.

It is going to happen quickly.

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The world in unbelief, under the sway of the god of this world will not know (see) the coming last day approaching. Which is why, as in the time of the flood, the world of unbelief will be unaware, eating and drinking, celebrating as though all is well and they shall not suffer the wrath of God to come.

Both pre-trib and anytime rapture view have large windows that the rapture could take place, beginning with right this current second - but both also have a limit.

pre-trib - the limit is before the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27 begins.
anytime rapture view - the limit is before the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved
God-hod - in the middle part of the 7 year 70th week.

Differently, post-trib has a one day window. Which the rapture takes place on the day of Jesus's Second Coming.

 

[Douggg]

Doug, can you please stop the lies? You're better than this. Post-trib cannot predict what day Jesus will return.

Of course, post-trib cannot predict a calendar day. I am not saying that they do.

But post-trib predicts the rapture will happen on the day of Jesus's Second Coming, whatever calendar day that turns out to be. That's a one day window.

Jesus said, instead, to watch because we don't know what day the rapture will take place.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Of course, post-trib cannot predict a calendar day. I am not saying that they do.

You said "The point is that the rapture can not be predicted to happen on a set day - like post-trib predicts.".

What did you mean by this? It comes across as you saying that post-trib claims to be able to predict what day the rapture will occur.

But post-trib predicts the rapture will happen on the day of Jesus's Second Coming, whatever calendar day that turns out to be.

Yeah, so?

That's a one day window.

So?

Jesus said, instead, to watch because we don't know what day the rapture will take place.

Right. We don't know what day Jesus will come and gather us to Himself and destroy His enemies. In our view, that will all happen quickly on that day. So, I'm just not seeing your point here. You're trying to act as if the post-trib view can claim to know what day the rapture will take place, but that is not the case.

In case you're somehow not understanding what I'm saying, I believe the following will occur quickly and that it includes both the rapture and God's wrath when Jesus returns.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

 

[Douggg]

I think he might be thinking of some post-tribbers who see the references to 1,260 days and such as literal and they think at a certain point they would be able to calculate the day of His return using the time periods referenced in Daniel and Revelation. But, of course, that is completely foolish. It's offensive to be lumped in with those fools.

Do you think the rapture could happen today ?

 

[Douggg]

You said "The point is that the rapture can not be predicted to happen on a set day - like post-trib predicts.".

What did you mean by this? It comes across as you saying that post-trib claims to be able to predict what day the rapture will occur.

post-trib predicts the rapture will happen on the same day as the day of Jesus's Second Coming.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do you think the rapture could happen today ?

Yes, but only because of my understanding of 2 Thess 2:1-12 and Matthew 24. Paul made it very clear that a mass falling away had to occur first and the man of sin being revealed (my understanding of that is far different than yours). Jesus also talked about many turning away from the faith and a significant increase in deception and wickedness before He comes to gather His own to Himself (Matthew 24:10-12;23-31). It seems to me that those things have already begun to happen and it doesn't say for how long it would happen, so because of that I do believe the rapture could occur today.

The thing that makes these discussions confusing at times is that both sides use the word "tribulation" but mean different things by it. In my view, I am post-trib in the sense of Jesus returning after a time period of increased spiritual tribulation. Otherwise known as "Satan's little season". And I know you would not define "the tribulation" the same way I do. I'm not even sure how you would define it exactly.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

post-trib predicts the rapture will happen on the same day as the day of Jesus's Second Coming.

Yes, and so what? What is your point in saying this?

 

[Douggg]

The thing that makes these discussions confusing at times is that both sides use the word "tribulation" but mean different things by it. In my view, I am post-trib in the sense of Jesus returning after a time period of increased spiritual tribulation. Otherwise known as "Satan's little season".

The terms, post-trib, pre-trib, mid-trib, for as long as I can remember implies the "trib" to be the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27. It is a misnomer because the whole 7 years is not tribulation. Non-the-less, that is the meaning of the "trib" in those views.

If you have a different definition of "trib" for you version of post-trib - then your view is something else, not the post-trib view.

 

[Douggg]

Yes, but only because of my understanding of 2 Thess 2:1-12 and Matthew 24.

Since you believe that it is possible for the rapture to happen today - you are not post-trib. Rethink the label of your rapture timing view. Maybe you are "any day" rapture view. I just created a label for you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The terms, post-trib, pre-trib, mid-trib, for as long as I can remember implies the "trib" to be the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27. It is a misnomer because the whole 7 years is not tribulation. Non-the-less, that is the meaning of the "trib" in those views.

If you have a different definition of "trib" for you version of post-trib - then your view is something else, not the post-trib view.

I don't need you to define "the tribulation" for me. You always have this imagined authority that you don't actually have. You are talking about one particular post-trib view that some have (mostly, if not only premils have it but an amil could technically have that view as well), but it is not the only post-trib view there is.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Since you believe that it is possible for the rapture to happen today - you are not post-trib.

LOL. I love how you foolishly think you can try to tell me what I believe. Based on my understanding of the tribulation, my view is post-trib. It is absolutely foolish for you to try to say otherwise. I don't need to agree with your understanding of what the tribulation entails.

Rethink the label of your rapture timing view. Maybe you are "any day" rapture view. I just created a label for you.

I would never want to assign the same label to my view as you use for your ridiculous view.

 

[The Light]

Since the pre-trib rapture doctors refer to 1 Thessalonians 4 as proof of their belief in a rapture of Christ's Church prior to the "great tribulation", when the faithful and serious Bible student actually looks at what Apostle Paul taught there in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the gathering of the Church, then it becomes obvious the pre-trib rapture doctors are telling LIES.

Run Davy, Run you have no answers as usual so i reposted for you.

Can you explain why many of the them which sleep in the ground shall be changed? Why aren't all of them that sleep in the ground changed?

Daniel 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

1 Thess 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

What is that, "... and the dead in Christ shall rise first" about, since that happens when Jesus descends from Heaven to gather His Church? Even the previous 1 Thess.4:15 verse confirms that those us still alive on earth shall not 'precede' the asleep saints that have already died (Greek for KJV "prevent" actually means 'to go beforehand' or precede).

That "... and the dead in Christ shall rise first" is about the RESURRECTION of the asleep saints that Jesus will bring with Him when He comes...

1 Thess 4:13-14
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
KJV

When does the future RESURRECTION happen per God's Word?

Jesus said:
John 6:40
40 And this is the will of Him That sent Me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
KJV
Click to expand...

Seems pretty clear. The alive shall not precede the dead. The dead in Christ rise first. Bingo. Simple enough

The alive remain. Simple enough.

Then he comes for the alive that remained. He will bring the dead in Christ with Him when He comes for the alive that remained.

Lines up perfectly with the feasts of God.

What "last day"? Simply, the final day of this present world!

When does the final day of this present world occur? At the 6th seal? At the 7th trumpet blown by an angel? After the 1000 years?

What Apostle Paul actually taught about the time of Christ's future coming to gather His Church is actually that it will occur ON THE 'LAST DAY' OF THIS WORLD, not... with some secret rapture prior to the "great tribulation".

When is this last day of this present and when will it occur? At the 6th seal? At the 7th trumpet blown by an angel? After the 1000 years?

Or do you have another last day picked out?

No wonder the pre-trib rapture doctors instead just scan... over those 1 Thess.4 verses instead of actually covering what Paul taught in them!

Why does Paul say this?

1 Thes 5
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Why doesn't Paul just say but of the time and season?

 

[Douggg]

I would never want to assign the same label to my view as you use for your ridiculous view.

My rapture view is "anytime rapture view". Anytime between right now and the day the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood.

 

[WPM]

Of course, post-trib cannot predict a calendar day. I am not saying that they do.

But post-trib predicts the rapture will happen on the day of Jesus's Second Coming, whatever calendar day that turns out to be. That's a one day window.

Jesus said, instead, to watch because we don't know what day the rapture will take place.

Are you feeling OK? You seem to be talking incoherently here.

 

[WPM]

post-trib predicts the rapture will happen on the same day as the day of Jesus's Second Coming.

And?

 

[WPM]

Run Davy, Run you have no answers as usual so i reposted for you.

Can you explain why many of the them which sleep in the ground shall be changed? Why aren't all of them that sleep in the ground changed?

Daniel 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Seems pretty clear. The alive shall not precede the dead. The dead in Christ rise first. Bingo. Simple enough

The alive remain. Simple enough.

Then he comes for the alive that remained. He will bring the dead in Christ with Him when He comes for the alive that remained.

Lines up perfectly with the feasts of God.


When does the final day of this present world occur? At the 6th seal? At the 7th trumpet blown by an angel? After the 1000 years?


When is this last day of this present and when will it occur? At the 6th seal? At the 7th trumpet blown by an angel? After the 1000 years?

Or do you have another last day picked out?


Why does Paul say this?

1 Thes 5
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Why doesn't Paul just say but of the time and season?

I already refuted this and you once again ducked around the rebuttal. That is what you have to do to sustain your error!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

My rapture view is "anytime rapture view". Anytime between right now and the day the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood.

Well, that's obviously not my view, right? So, why would I want to put that same label on my own view as you suggested? LOL. Come on, Doug. We both believe the rapture could occur at any time, but it would be silly for us to label our views the same since you say it can happen "Anytime between right now and the day the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood" which is a pile of nonsense I would never agree with. Surely, you can understand this...I hope.

 

[Douggg]

Well, that's obviously not my view, right? So, why would I want to put that same label on my own view as you suggested? LOL. Come on, Doug. We both believe the rapture could occur at any time, but it would be silly for us to label our views the same since you say it can happen "Anytime between right now and the day the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood" which is a pile of nonsense I would never agree with. Surely, you can understand this...I hope.

I suggested your view is "any day" , not the "anytime rapture view" which I came up with.

Your view spans the rapture could happen between today and the day of Jesus's Second Coming. So stop referring to yourself as post-trib. But "any day rapture view", as I suggest and define for you.

 

[Douggg]

Fair enough!

Are you going to go for the "any day rapture view" as well ? Defined as that your view spans the rapture could happen"any day" between and including today and the day of Jesus's Second Coming.

 

[Douggg]

Well, that's obviously not my view, right? So, why would I want to put that same label on my own view as you suggested? LOL. Come on, Doug. We both believe the rapture could occur at any time, but it would be silly for us to label our views the same since you say it can happen "Anytime between right now and the day the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood" which is a pile of nonsense I would never agree with. Surely, you can understand this...I hope.

I think this is your rapture timing view...