The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Spiritual Israelite]

Already did.
You should have learned in First grade how to concisely answer a direct question.

Teacher ~ Question
Susie does your mother live in the house you live in?
Student ~ Answer
A lady lives in my house.
Teacher ~ Vague, doesn’t answer question.
Teacher ~ Try again.
Student ~ Answer
Yes.

Not my job to teach you how to have a valid worthwhile conversation.

You are a child. Like your immature childish brethren, you are incapable of making a coherent argument using scripture.

Are there any adult pretribbers here who would like to have an adult discussion? Step on up!

 

[WPM]

In your post-trib view, you have packaged the seventh trumpet sounding, the Second Coming of Jesus, the rapture - into one single specific day.

But Jesus said no-one knows the day nor hour, but God the Father. And that the world will be at ease, marrying and given in marriage - which does not fit the status of the world at Jesus's Second Coming to end the great tribulation.
.
You think the rapture happens at Jesus's Second Coming, right ? But Jesus said....


40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

What is your point? Why will none of you explain your argument? It seems like Pretrib is an esoteric belief that can only be understood by wacko cryptic conspiracy theorists.

 

[WPM]

In your post-trib view, you have packaged the seventh trumpet sounding, the Second Coming of Jesus, the rapture - into one single specific day.

But Jesus said no-one knows the day nor hour, but God the Father. And that the world will be at ease, marrying and given in marriage - which does not fit the status of the world at Jesus's Second Coming to end the great tribulation.
.
You think the rapture happens at Jesus's Second Coming, right ? But Jesus said....


40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” What day and hour? The one and only final future climactic coming (or parousia) of our Lord. Please see the Greek word is used twice here in this passage. This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

Christ describes this day as an unanticipated day for many – one that will find many unprepared. For those who are playing at religion they will be caught on. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The wicked are an all-inclusive group; they include every Christ-rejecter – from the religious professors to the outright profane hypocrites. They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

 

[MA2444]

Those that think that they have replace Israel do not take scripture literally.

It's pretty clear in

Romans 11:1-5
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.../KJV

 

[MA2444]

What is your point? Why will none of you explain your argument? It seems like Pretrib is an esoteric belief that can only be understood by wacko cryptic conspiracy theorists.

And tell me brother, what part of the Bible is not a conspiracy theory (fact)? Lol.

Just because I'm paranoid doesnt mean that they're not out to get me!

 

[rwb]

In your post-trib view, you have packaged the seventh trumpet sounding, the Second Coming of Jesus, the rapture - into one single specific day.

But Jesus said no-one knows the day nor hour, but God the Father. And that the world will be at ease, marrying and given in marriage - which does not fit the status of the world at Jesus's Second Coming to end the great tribulation.
.
You think the rapture happens at Jesus's Second Coming, right ? But Jesus said....


40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

I suppose you believe the time needed is about one thousand years? Yet Paul writes the resurrection from the graves shall be in a moment and twinkling of an eye. In the same manner when God spoke all things in heaven and earth being created in six days, so too shall all the saints, both the dead and living, shall be caught up and changed in the blink of an eye or in "the hour that is coming". The world in unbelief, under the sway of the god of this world will not know (see) the coming last day approaching. Which is why, as in the time of the flood, the world of unbelief will be unaware, eating and drinking, celebrating as though all is well and they shall not suffer the wrath of God to come.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What is your point? Why will none of you explain your argument? It seems like Pretrib is an esoteric belief that can only be understood by wacko cryptic conspiracy theorists.

Do we have to offer them money in order to get them to actually exegete some scripture and make a coherent argument? Maybe that's what it takes.

 

[WPM]

And tell me brother, what part of the Bible is not a conspiracy theory (fact)? Lol.

Just because I'm paranoid doesnt mean that they're not out to get me!

I actually suspected this. LOL.

 

[WPM]

Do we have to offer them money in order to get them to actually exegete some scripture and make a coherent argument? Maybe that's what it takes.

Maybe. LOL.

They have to come up with something compelling eventually, something that is not derived from the Left Behind novels.

 

[WPM]

It's pretty clear in

Romans 11:1-5
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.../KJV

You do not seem to have a clue what Paul is pressing at here.

To arrive at the ‘corporate position’ one has to totally ignore Paul’s overriding message of two types of Israeli in Romans 9–11 (and in the whole book of Romans). Throughout, he is constantly differentiating between Israelis that are blind and Israelis that are elect.

Paul declares in Romans 11:1-5:

Q. “I say then, Hath God cast away his people?”

A. “God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.”

The evidence that God had not rejected Israel as a whole back in Paul’s day is shown here in the fact that there was a small remnant of believing Jews (including himself) that had accepted Christ and therefore embraced the new covenant arrangement.

Dispensationalists conveniently overlook this with their fixation on the whole nation of natural Israel. They seem to imagine that God must save every single Jew in order for Him to be considered faithful to Israel. But that is not what Scripture says or demands.

God had not cast away Israel in Paul’s day. He remained faithful to those who desired to embrace His only provision for sin and uncleanness. Even though most Israelites rejected Christ, those that were foreknown by God, and were true Israelites, came to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Maybe. LOL.

They have to come up with something compelling eventually, something that is not derived from the Left Behind novels.

I might be willing to give them money if it would get them to actually use scripture to back up their claims. I don't have a whole lot of spare cash, though. We amils might all need to chip in to the Pretrib Exegesis Fund.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You do not seem to have a clue what Paul is pressing at here.

• To arrive at the ‘corporate position’ one has to totally ignore Paul’s overriding message of two types of Israeli in Romans 9–11 (and in the whole book of Romans). Throughout, he is constantly differentiating between Israelis that are blind and Israelis that are elect.
• One also has to ignore the whole context and setting of Paul’s comments “all Israel shall be saved.” He uses the phrase immediately after demonstrating that the elect Israeli good olive only holds those Jews that are of the household of “faith.”
• As Paul expands his argument on the salvation of his own kinsmen, and tells us that all Israel shall be saved, he does it within the vital context of a faithful believing remnant of Israelis. Many fail to see that Paul has already established that the believing element within the overall physical nation of Israel is “a remnant.”
• Some also seem to overlook Paul’s supporting evidence from the Old Testament Scripture (in Isaiah 59:20) that shows that the people in view are a spiritual segment of the overall whole who put their faith in Christ and repent of their sin.

Paul declares in Romans 11:1-5:

Q. “I say then, Hath God cast away his people?”

A. “God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.”

The evidence that God had not rejected Israel as a whole back in Paul’s day is shown here in the fact that there was a small remnant of believing Jews (including himself) that had accepted Christ and therefore embraced the new covenant arrangement.

Dispensationalists conveniently overlook this with their fixation on the whole nation of natural Israel. They seem to imagine that God must save every single Jew in order for Him to be considered faithful to Israel. But that is not what Scripture says or demands.

God had not cast away Israel in Paul’s day. He remained faithful to those who desired to embrace His only provision for sin and uncleanness. Even though most Israelites rejected Christ, those that were foreknown by God, and were true Israelites, came to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

Absolutely right. Dispensationalists do not differentiate between saved and unsaved Israelites, but Paul clearly did. You can't hope to understand Romans 11 without recognizing that.

Seeing it the way they do (not differentiating between saved an unsaved Israelites) leads them to believe that when Paul wrote this:

Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

They actually think that he was saying that all Israelites, including saved Israelites, "are enemies for your sakes". What?!! That is insane! No saved Israelite was an enemy of the gospel for the Gentile's sakes. Only "the rest" who "were blinded" (Romans 11:7), and not part of the remnant of saved Israelites, were enemies for the Gentiles' sakes.

And they think Paul was saying that all Israelites, including the hypocritical Pharisees and scribes that Jesus very sharply rebuked in Matthew 23, "are beloved the the father's sakes". Unbelieving Pharisees and scribes "beloved for the father's sakes"? No chance! It is only "the election" which Paul previously referenced in verse 7 which were the "remnant according to the election of grace" are beloved for the father's sakes, not "the rest" who "were blinded".

 

[WPM]

I might be willing to give them money if it would get them to actually use scripture to back up their claims. I don't have a whole lot of spare cash, though. We amils might all need to chip in to the Pretrib Exegesis Fund.

No, no, no. You are not going there! They are showing who they are and what foundation they are building their beliefs upon.

 

[Douggg]

What is your point?

What do you mean what is my point ? I made three of four posts about my point. The point is that the rapture can not be predicted to happen on a set day - like post-trib predicts.

 

[WPM]

What do you mean what is my point ? I made three of four posts about my point. The point is that the rapture can not be predicted to happen on a set day - like post-trib predicts.

What are you talking about? No one knows the day of His appearing.

You need to take your Pretrib glasses off. Until you do, you will never understand Posttrib. Your reasoning is as clear as mud.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, no, no. You are not going there! They are showing who they are and what foundation they are building their beliefs upon.

Okay, I will keep my money and use it for better things.

 

[WPM]

Okay, I will keep my money and use it for better things.

Phewww. I was getting worried.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What do you mean what is my point ? I made three of four posts about my point. The point is that the rapture can not be predicted to happen on a set day - like post-trib predicts.

Doug, can you please stop the lies? You're better than this. Post-trib cannot predict what day Jesus will return. Not the version of post-trib that people in this thread hold to, at least. And, you're talking to us here, not some other post-tribs who foolishly think the exact day of His return can be determined.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Phewww. I was getting worried.

Really? I guess I should have included a smiley when I said that. I would never even dream of actually doing that. I highly doubt they would exegete scripture even if offered money to do so, anyway.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What are you talking about? No one knows the day of His appearing.

You need to take your Pretrib glasses off. Until you do, you will never understand Posttrib. Your reasoning is as clear as mud.

I think he might be thinking of some post-tribbers who see the references to 1,260 days and such as literal and they think at a certain point they would be able to calculate the day of His return using the time periods referenced in Daniel and Revelation. But, of course, that is completely foolish. It's offensive to be lumped in with those fools.