The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[CadyandZoe]

Can you actually give me Scripture instead of presenting your own private opinions?

Are you serious? You really don't know?

 

[WPM]

Are you serious?

Yes, this is a Bible discussion forum.

 

[CadyandZoe]

If by tag team you mean that Amils consistently use Scripture to prove biblical truth, then yes, I suppose Amils do indeed support biblical doctrine we bring to these discussions in opposition to doctrines of Premils.

And you ignore other scriptures that disprove Amil.

 

[WPM]

And you ignore other scriptures that disprove Amil.

Not so. Quite the opposite. You did not present any Scriptures. That is likely testimony that you do not have any.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes, this is a Bible discussion forum.

So you need to find out where it talks about the Lord returning to the clouds to meet his followers? And you have no idea what passage talks about Armageddon? Really WPM? What is this really about then?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We become kings when we come to Jesus. We hold that position in heaven when we die. Crowns symbolically represent that position.

They ignore the following passage which mentions Jesus currently reigning, mentions His resurrection as being the first, and mentions us having been MADE priests and kings of God the Father and His Son Jesus.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

People need to read the above passage in order to understand the context and timing of this verse:

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The similarities are obvious.

Who has part in the first resurrection? All those who Jesus loves and has washed from their sins "in his own blood". That includes us. The second death has no power over them (us) even now.

Whose resurrection was the first resurrection? Jesus's resurrection, according to Revelation 1:5, Acts 26:23, 1 Corinthians 15:20 and Colossians 1:18.

When does Jesus reign? He was already reigning when the book of Revelation was written according to Revelation 1:5-6 (and many other passages like Matthew 28:16-18, Ephesians 1:19-23, Colossians 1:12-13 and 1 Corinthians 15:25).

When are believers considered to be kings and priests of God the Father and of Christ and to be reigning with Christ? Now, according to Revelation 1:5-6.

We need to allow scripture to interpret scripture and pretribs do not do that. They interpret a passages in such a way that contradicts many other passages and instead of rethinking how they are interpreting that passage, they twist the other passages to fit their view of that passage. They use horrible and dishonest hermeneutics.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Not so. Quite the opposite. You did not present any Scriptures. That is likely testimony that you do not have any.

Are you interested in the truth or being right?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There are two comings of the Lord then.

Do you want to have an actual discussion or just continue making claims without backing them up? Please address what I said.

Do you believe the following verse is about the rapture and not the second coming?

2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

That verse immediately reminds me of this:

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Does 2 Thess 1:10 not remind you of the above passage?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Are you interested in the truth or being right?

What truth are you presenting? I only see your opinions. Do you have any interest in backing them up or do you equate your opinions with scripture?

 

[WPM]

So you need to find out where it talks about the Lord returning to the clouds to meet his followers? And you have no idea what passage talks about Armageddon? Really WPM? What is this really about then?

I'm not interested in getting into this with you.

Do you still deny the deity of Christ?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is the one and only coming of the Lord Jesus Christ to the sky to rescue all His elect and destroy all the wicked.



That is a picture of heavenly Jerusalem today. Earthly Jerusalem has been judged and condemned already. She has lost her theocratic favorite position throughout the world.



This is the one and only coming of the Lord Jesus Christ to the sky to rescue all His elect and destroy all the wicked.

Agree. Well, those questions were easy to answer. Pretribs just can't accept how simple this all is. They have to make it as convoluted as possible because, for some reason, they can't accept the simplicity of it all.

 

[CadyandZoe]

They ignore the following passage which mentions Jesus currently reigning, mentions His resurrection as being the first, and mentions us having been MADE priests and kings of God the Father and His Son Jesus.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

People need to read the above passage in order to understand the context and timing of this verse:

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The similarities are obvious.

Who has part in the first resurrection? All those who Jesus loves and has washed from their sins "in his own blood". That includes us. The second death has no power over them (us) even now.

Whose resurrection was the first resurrection? Jesus's resurrection, according to Revelation 1:5, Acts 26:23, 1 Corinthians 15:20 and Colossians 1:18.

When does Jesus reign? He was already reigning when the book of Revelation was written according to Revelation 1:5-6 (and many other passages like Matthew 28:16-18, Ephesians 1:19-23, Colossians 1:12-13 and 1 Corinthians 15:25).

When are believers considered to be kings and priests of God the Father and of Christ and to be reigning with Christ? Now, according to Revelation 1:5-6.

We need to allow scripture to interpret scripture and pretribs do not do that. They interpret a passages in such a way that contradicts many other passages and instead of rethinking how they are interpreting that passage, they twist the other passages to fit their view of that passage. They use horrible and dishonest hermeneutics.

Do you want to have an actual discussion or just continue making claims without backing them up? Please address what I said.

I did address it. Sorry you missed it.

Do you believe the following verse is about the rapture and not the second coming?

2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

There are two second comings as I explained to WPM.

Coming 1:
Jesus meets with his followers in the air.

Coming 2:
Jesus fights at Armageddon.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 2 Thessalonians 1:10 discuss Coming 1.

 

[CadyandZoe]

What truth are you presenting? I only see your opinions. Do you have any interest in backing them up or do you equate your opinions with scripture?

So no one can have a true opinion?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm not interested in getting into this with you.

Do you still deny the deity of Christ?

Don't waste your time with someone who is afraid to post any scripture. He is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I'm not interested in getting into this with you.

Do you still deny the deity of Christ?

Do you don't want to discuss the subject? Okay.

 

[rwb]

Because post-trib view has the rapture taking place on the specific day of Jesus's return. But Jesus said (paraphrasing) that no man knows that specific day and hour, only God the Father knows.

When God the Father determines when, God the Father is going to say to Jesus - now is the day and hour, go resurrect the saints in Christ and translate the living saints in Christ (the rapture). ( Of course no one's knows
what God the Father's exact words will be. I am just trying to explain.)

Actually, as post trib Amil we believe the rapture shall come when the last trumpet sounds the Lord's Second coming! That does not anticipate a SPECIFIC day, but a day that none shall know which shall come when the last trumpet sounds that TIME shall be no longer. The problem you face is trying to use Scripture to prove the day after Jesus returns marks the beginning of more time (one thousand more years) even though Scripture plainly tells us that time for this earth is no more when the last/seventh trumpet sounds. Scripture also proves that the last trumpet marks the resurrection and rapture when Christ comes the Second time.

 

[rwb]

And you ignore other scriptures that disprove Amil.

Perhaps you would be so good as to show which Scriptures disprove Amil?

 

[WPM]

Do you don't want to discuss the subject? Okay.

Do you still deny the deity of Christ?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I did address it. Sorry you missed it.

There are two second comings as I explained to WPM.

Coming 1:
Jesus meets with his followers in the air.

Coming 2:
Jesus fights at Armageddon.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 2 Thessalonians 1:10 discuss Coming 1.

For some reason you decided not to address it in direct response to me. I don't necessarily read every post that isn't directed to me since there are so many.

Okay, so you agree that 2 Thessalonians 1:10 is a reference to the rapture, which you call "Coming 1". So, do you ignore the preceding verses which tell what also happens on that day?

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

This passage clearly shows Jesus destroying His enemies on the same day that the rapture (1 Thess 4:16) occurs. So, why do you separate those into two entirely different comings of Christ?

 

[rwb]

So no one can have a true opinion?

Opinion without verification from Scripture is meaningless!