3 God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

[GISMYS_7]

1 Timothy 2:3-4

New King James Version​

3 God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Randy Kluth]

1 Timothy 2:3-4​

​

New King James Version​

3 God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Amen. God's word is fair to all, and extends an invitation to cooperate with God to all.

However, God already knows, in advance, that some will agree to live by His word and some will not. Consequently, God has been able to anticipate the results of those who live by His word and those who don't.

And this means people will arrive in the world with the intention to either cooperate with God's word or not. Some will accept God's invitation to Salvation and some will not. I will leave this determination up to God alone, whose word it is we must submit to.

 

[Arthur81]

1 Timothy 2:3-4​

​

New King James Version​

3 God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Does Tit_2:11 really teach that the saving grace of God has appeared to every member of the human race without any exception? Of course not! It matters little whether one interprets “the appearance of the saving grace” as referring to the bestowal of salvation itself, or to the fact that the gospel of saving grace has been preached to every person on earth. In either case it is impossible to make “all men” mean “every individual on the globe without exception.”

Again, does Rom_5:18 really teach that “every member of the human race” is “justified”?

Does 1Co_15:22 really intend to tell us that “every member of the human race” is “made alive in Christ”?

But if that be true, then it follows that Christ did not only die for every member of the human race, but that he also actually saved every one without any exception whatever. Most conservatives would hesitate to go that far.

Moreover, if, wherever it occurs, the expression “all men” or its equivalent has this absolutely universalistic connotation, then would not the following be true:

(a) Every member of the human race regarded John the Baptist as a prophet (Mar_11:32).
(b) Every member of the human race wondered whether John was, perhaps, the Christ (Luk_3:15).
(c) Every member of the human race marveled about the Gadarene demoniac (Mar_5:20).
(d) Every member of the human race was searching for Jesus (Mar_1:37).
(e) It was reported to the Baptist that all members of the human race were flocking to Jesus (Joh_3:26).

And so one could easily continue. Even today, how often do we not use the expression “all men” or “everybody” without referring to every member of the human race? When we say, “If everybody is ready, the meeting can begin,” we do not refer to everybody on earth!

Thus also in the present passage (1Ti_2:1), it is the context that must decide. In this case the context is clear. Paul definitely mentions groups or classes of men: kings (verse 1Ti_2:2), those in high position (verse 1Ti_2:2), the Gentiles (verse 1Ti_2:7). He is thinking of rulers and (by implication) subjects, of Gentiles and (again by implication) Jews, and he is urging Timothy to see to it that in public worship not a single group be omitted. In other words, the expression “all men” as here used means “all men without distinction of race, nationality, or social position,” not “all men individually, one by one.”
From Baker's New Testament Commentary, BNTC

 

[Arthur81]

Amen. God's word is fair to all, and extends an invitation to cooperate with God to all.

However, God already knows, in advance, that some will agree to live by His word and some will not. Consequently, God has been able to anticipate the results of those who live by His word and those who don't.

And this means people will arrive in the world with the intention to either cooperate with God's word or not. Some will accept God's invitation to Salvation and some will not. I will leave this determination up to God alone, whose word it is we must submit to.

You wrote:

"God already knows, in advance, that some will agree to live by His word and some will not."

Is that foreknowledge of God based on the "will" of the "some'; or is it based on His will by Decree?

 

[Randy Kluth]

You wrote:

"God already knows, in advance, that some will agree to live by His word and some will not."

Is that foreknowledge of God based on the "will" of the "some'; or is it based on His will by Decree?

Brother that's the million dollar question, and I'm open. I personally am a Predestinarian, and believe that God predetermines things. But what that is based on involves Man's cooperation (or not) with God's will.

So when men do not cooperate with God's word, things go haywire, and people come into the world with a predetermined preference for going their own way. God doesn't wish for this, but people have been given free will which affects even their unborn children. When they are born, either spiritually or environmentally, with a predisposition towards rebelling against God's word, then God can fully foretell their ultimate choices, which still must be lived out in real time, to be fair.

And that's because people, regardless of their eternal destiny, still have gradations of cooperation with God's word or not, determining the degree of punishment, or placement in eternity. More or fewer stripes is what we were told.

Outer darkness--not stretched out on a rack, because God doesn't punish like Grand Inquisitors do. People will either live in God's Kingdom or live outside of it in Outer Darkness.

Either way, people are now given the opportunity to show their degree of cooperation with God's word, and this will determine their fate in eternity. That's how I see it. And you?

 

[GISMYS_7]

Reject Jesus as Lord or believe and accept Jesus as your Lord and savior=your choice!!!
Calvinism down the drain.

 

[Arthur81]

I prefer to stay with the clear declarations of God's word, rather than the theories of religious humanism.

Written in the Old Covenant:

Psa 110:1-4 NRSVue "The LORD says to my lord, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool.” 2 The LORD sends out from Zion your mighty scepter. Rule in the midst of your foes. 3 Your people will offer themselves willingly on the day you lead your forces on the holy mountains. From the womb of the morning, like dew, your youth will come to you. 4 The LORD has sworn and will not change his mind, “You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.”

Eze 36:22-28 NRSVue "Therefore say to the house of Israel: Thus says the Lord GOD: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. 23 I will sanctify my great name, which has been profaned among the nations and which you have profaned among them, and the nations shall know that I am the LORD, says the Lord GOD, when through you I display my holiness before their eyes. 24 I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you, and I will remove from your body the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put my spirit within you and make you follow my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances. 28 Then you shall live in the land that I gave to your ancestors, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God." Keep in mind: Ezekiel prophesied around 580 BC and the Jews returned to their land as recorded in Ezra and Nehemiah, around 450 BC about 130 years after Ezekiels' prophecy. Then later came the dispensation of the gospel with the coming of the Son of God as the man, Jesus Christ.

Under the New Covenant:

Php 2:12-13 NRSVue "Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed me, not only in my presence but much more now in my absence, work on your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

Joh 6:37-40 RSV "All that the Father gives me will come to me; and him who comes to me I will not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; 39 and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

Joh 10:25-28 NRSVue "Jesus answered, “I have told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name testify to me, 26 but you do not believe because you do not belong to my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand."

 

[Randy Kluth]

You wrote:

"God already knows, in advance, that some will agree to live by His word and some will not."

Is that foreknowledge of God based on the "will" of the "some'; or is it based on His will by Decree?

I have a problem with the word "decree," because it implies that people do not have a choice. God gave people free will, but understands the circumstances by which people decide one way or another. It's like knowing a horse will choose to eat the hay instead of rocks.

God forms the child based upon the choice ancestors have made, whether according to God's word or not. It may not even involve conscious cooperation with God's word.

Those who cooperate with God's word, conscious of it or not, produce good children. Those who rebel against God's word produce children of like kind, who gravitate towards rebelling against God's word and fighting for their "rights" and independence from God and for their own "god-hood." They freely choose to "eat the rocks."

That's probably as clear as mud, which only goes to show how clear my views are on this subject. ;)

 

[Arthur81]

Adam and Eve had a free will. Once they sinned, free will was lost and man's will became bound to his sinful nature. Man indeed makes choices daily, he has 'free agency', but he is never totally free from his sin nature, even in his state of being regenerate. From another view, how can a spiritually dead person have a free will?

"But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—" (Eph 2:4-5 NRSV)

I think of a couple verses that give us a hint how this happens:

"A certain woman named Lydia, a worshiper of God, was listening to us; she was from the city of Thyatira and a dealer in purple cloth. The Lord opened her heart to listen eagerly to what was said by Paul." (Acts 16:14 NRSV)

"Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed me, not only in my presence, but much more now in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure." (Phil 2:12-13 NRSV)

"But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God, who were born, not of blood or of the will of the flesh or of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12-13 NRSV)

Being born again of the will of God, precedes any spiritual act of man. I do not remember being born physically into this world and I do not remember being born spiritually. I remember when I professed my faith, but not when I was born from above.

 

[Scott Downey]

Jesus did not bear the sins of all men, just many men.

If he bore the sins of all men, all would live to God being saved, but men still die in their sins if they do not believe in me, said Christ.

The ones he bore the sins of, are saved.

Hebrews 9:28
so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

1 Peter 1
23 who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose [a]stripes you were healed. 25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and [b]Overseer of your souls.

Isaiah 53:12
Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the spoil with the strong, Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors.

John 8:24
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

 

[Scott Downey]

John 10, Jesus gives up his life only for His sheep, who are the sheep.
All the sheep gets saved, not the goats.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 Jesus used this illustration, but they did not understand the things which He spoke to them.

Jesus the Good Shepherd​

7 Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who ever came [a]before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12 But a [b]hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

 

[GISMYS_7]

1 Timothy 2:3-4​

3 God our Savior, 4 who desires """all""" men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
""ALL"" is an easy word for most people to understand. And you???

 

[Scott Downey]

1 Timothy 2:3-4​

3 God our Savior, 4 who desires """all""" men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
""ALL"" is an easy word for most people to understand. And you???

The same theme is in Acts 17:30
But it does not explain why a particular person believes, but other scriptures do explain why.

24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one [j]blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked, while others said, “We will hear you again on this matter.” 33 So Paul departed from among them. 34 However, some men joined him and believed, among them Dionysius the Areopagite, a woman named Damaris, and others with them.

 

[FaithWillDo]

1 Timothy 2:3-4​

​

New King James Version​

3 God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Dear GISMYS_7,

Here is the full scripture as it should be translated:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

If you believe that the scripture should be translated as "desires" instead of "will have", the scripture itself would not make any sense. Can't you see that? I'll explain it below.

If Christ only "desires" to save mankind, that is an emotion and is not an act that produces a result. An emotion can be testified to be true in the present because it does not require anything to happen. But when the verse is translated as "will have", it does require something to happen in the future (due time). After it has happened, it can only then be "testified" to be true.

But even if the scripture should be translated as "desires", you need to apply the verse below to your understanding (a little here and a there a little, Isa 28:9-12).

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.

Christ is mankind's God and even if He only desires to save all mankind, "that will he do". Christ rules supreme and will accomplish all that pleases Him.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Joe

 

[Beebster]

Dear GISMYS_7,

Here is the full scripture as it should be translated:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

If you believe that the scripture should be translated as "desires" instead of "will have", the scripture itself would not make any sense. Can't you see that? I'll explain it below.

If Christ only "desires" to save mankind, that is an emotion and is not an act that produces a result. An emotion can be testified to be true in the present because it does not require anything to happen. But when the verse is translated as "will have", it does require something to happen in the future (due time). After it has happened, it can only then be "testified" to be true.

But even if the scripture should be translated as "desires", you need to apply the verse below to your understanding (a little here and a there a little, Isa 28:9-12).

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.

Christ is mankind's God and even if He only desires to save all mankind, "that will he do". Christ rules supreme and will accomplish all that pleases Him.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Joe

Well said Joe. I agree wholeheartedly.

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. (1 John 2:2)

Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? (Isa 53:1)

God Bless.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Well said Joe. I agree wholeheartedly.

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. (1 John 2:2)

Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? (Isa 53:1)

God Bless.

Dear Beebster,
Since you believe that Christ is truly the Savior of the world, do you understand His plan for accomplishing this great work? In other words, do you understand the pathway to salvation that Christ causes His Elect to travel in this age and the pathway that the "lost" of the final age will travel?

Also, have you seen the Abomination of Desolation that Christ mentions in Mat 24:15? It is one of the keys to understanding the pathway to salvation.

Joe

 

[Beebster]

Dear Beebster,
Since you believe that Christ is truly the Savior of the world, do you understand His plan for accomplishing this great work? In other words, do you understand the pathway to salvation that Christ causes His Elect to travel in this age and the pathway that the "lost" of the final age will travel?

Yes. I know who does the judging as and with Christ and who the lake of fire is:

For many are called, but few are chosen. (Mat 22:14)

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; (1 Pet 2:9)

For our God is a consuming fire. (Heb 12:29)

Also, have you seen the Abomination of Desolation that Christ mentions in Mat 24:15? It is one of the keys to understanding the pathway to salvation.


Joe

Who opposeth and exalteth HIMSELF above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that HE as God sitteth in the temple of God, SHEWING HIMSELM that HE is God. (2 Thes 2:4)

Peace.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Yes. I know who does the judging as and with Christ and who the lake of fire is:

For many are called, but few are chosen. (Mat 22:14)

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; (1 Pet 2:9)

For our God is a consuming fire. (Heb 12:29)


Who opposeth and exalteth HIMSELF above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that HE as God sitteth in the temple of God, SHEWING HIMSELM that HE is God.(2 Thes 2:4)

Peace.

Dear Beebster,
Yes, in this age, Christ is only saving those blessed individuals who were chosen from the foundation of the world to be saved early. That is why they are called First Fruits.

Paul's conversion "type", the parables which begin with the phrase "the kingdom of heaven is like" and all the end-time prophecies teach the pathway to salvation that each of the Elect will travel.

Below is my summary of the major events that Christ will cause His Elect to experience:

• Christ gives the Early Rain of the Spirit to call a person to be a saint. This includes the "many" and the "few". This is when the person will make a confession of faith and will enter the church (1Cor 12:3). However, the new believer will remain spiritually blind, carnally minded and unconverted (Mat 12:43-45, Paul' experience on the Damascus Road) at this time.
• The spirit of anti-Christ will then come to the unconverted believer and cause the Abomination of Desolation to occur within them. When the new believer consumes Satan's leavened bread and becomes "worse than the first"; a Man of Sin who mixes their own works with faith under the New Covenant.
• The new believer then "falls away" (mixes works with faith/sin that leads to death) and loses their salvation. They unknowingly enter the apostate church. The "many" who are only called to be saints will remain in this lost condition until they die.
• For the Elect in this apostate condition (man of sin/Seven Headed beast), Christ will send a converted believer to them with the call of Elijah to repent from their works. With their repentance, the pathway for Christ to return to them is made straight.
• Christ will then come quickly to them (the Second Coming of Christ) and pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit. This is when an Elect believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise (Eph 1:10-14).
• This is also when the new child of God is born within the believer and is gathered up to heaven to dwell with Christ (spiritually speaking, not literally, Mat 24:29-31).
• Also at this time, the believer's spiritual blindness will be healed.
• Now with "eyes that can see", the Marriage Supper/Lord's Supper will occur where Christ feeds the Elect believer His milk, bread and New Wine (truth of the New Covenant). This is when they will "see" the Abomination of Desolation which previously occurred within themselves when the spirit of anti-Christ entered them (Mat 24:15-16).
• Christ then spiritually appears to the believer and the Day of the Lord (judgment) begins.
• During the Day of the Lord, the spirit of anti-Christ and the believer's carnal nature (Great Harlot) will be "taken" from within the believer and cast into the Lake of Fire for destruction (shown in Rev 19:20 and Mat 24:40-41). The believer is now converted. After the conversion process is complete, all that will remain within the believer is the Holy Spirit who will begin maturing the new child of God into a perfect man by feeding them "strong meat" accompanied with chastisement. This maturing process will teach them righteousness (Isa 26:9, Phi 2:13).
• Next comes the time of testing by Satan when he is loosed from his prison (Rev 20:7-10). After the believer passes their time of testing, it will be said that they have overcome this world just as Christ overcame this world (Rev 3:21).
• The believer is now ready for the bodily resurrection which will occur at the end of the age (redemption of the body).

Joe

 

[Beebster]

Hi Joe, my name is Eric, by the way.

I would say I'm on board with most of what you're saying, but a few things are not quite sitting right with me.
I don't have time to respond to all of the post but I intend to and maybe we will come to total agreement. More than likely I am misunderstanding some things you've said.

Dear Beebster,
Yes, in this age, Christ is only saving those blessed individuals who were chosen from the foundation of the world to be saved early. That is why they are called First Fruits.

Yes. They are being saved. It is a process.
And yes they are the First Fruits, i.e heaven, the clouds, the few, the chosen, the Elect, the 12, the 144, 000, New Jerusalem, Christ, the one body, and the list goes on and on.

Paul's conversion "type", the parables which begin with the phrase "the kingdom of heaven is like" and all the end-time prophecies teach the pathway to salvation that each of the Elect will travel.

Yes Paul's conversion is typical. Not only blindness, but it shows how quickly Christ can convert the worst of the worst.
Paul was already called into the church, and I must say since he was leading Christians to the slaughter, already spiritually blind.
But yes, when you are called into the church you certainly are blind.

Peace.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Hi Joe, my name is Eric, by the way.

I would say I'm on board with most of what you're saying, but a few things are not quite sitting right with me.
I don't have time to respond to all of the post but I intend to and maybe we will come to total agreement. More than likely I am misunderstanding some things you've said.

Yes. They are being saved. It is a process.
And yes they are the First Fruits, i.e heaven, the clouds, the few, the chosen, the Elect, the 12, the 144, 000, New Jerusalem, Christ, the one body, and the list goes on and on.

Yes Paul's conversion is typical. Not only blindness, but it shows how quickly Christ can convert the worst of the worst.
Paul was already called into the church, and I must say since he was leading Christians to the slaughter, already spiritually blind.
But yes, when you are called into the church you certainly are blind.

Peace.

Dear Beebster,
You said:
Yes. They are being saved. It is a process.
And yes they are the First Fruits, i.e heaven, the clouds, the few, the chosen, the Elect, the 12, the 144, 000, New Jerusalem, Christ, the one body, and the list goes on and on.

Yes! You are seeing more truth than anyone I have met on this forum. Even the "Two Witnesses" (Rev 11) represent all the Elect. And like Paul's conversion, the Two Witnesses teach the pathway to salvation that Christ causes His Elect to travel.

You said:
Yes Paul's conversion is typical. Not only blindness, but it shows how quickly Christ can convert the worst of the worst.
Paul was already called into the church, and I must say since he was leading Christians to the slaughter, already spiritually blind.
But yes, when you are called into the church you certainly are blind.

Again, you are seeing more truth than anyone I have met on this forum.

Mankind is born spiritually blind due to mankind's marred spirit. The flaw in mankind's spirit is that it is weak. That weakness allows the flesh to govern mankind, thus making everyone carnally minded. It is the carnal mind that blinds a person from "seeing" the true Christ (Word of God).

Even after an unbeliever is given the Early Rain of the Spirit, they will remain spiritually blind, carnally minded and unconverted. It takes both the Early and Latter Rains to be saved. However, the Early Rain will give a person a measure of faith which will cause them to make a confession of faith when they are presented the Gospel. But due to their spiritual blindness, all they can truly understand is "Christ and Him crucified" (1Cor 2:2). In other words, they can understand the truth of Christ's physical work that He did under the Old Covenant but the work and teachings of Christ under the New Covenant will remain blurred (Mark 8:15-25).

The Old Covenant was given to be understood by carnal mankind. It does not require spiritual vision to understand. However, the New Covenant is spiritual and only the converted Elect who have had their spiritual blindness healed are able to understand it.

Because all new believers remain carnally minded, they will prefer the Old Wine over the New Wine. Because of this preference, it is easy for Satan to deceive a new believer and cause them to mix their own works (Old Wine) with the works of Christ under the New Covenant (New Wine).

Prov 23:30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. 31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. 32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.

When a believer does this mixing, they are committing the one and only sin that leads to death. The false Doctrine of Free Will is this sin's foundational belief. And it is by this sin that Satan spiritually kills the saints and grows the apostate church. All new believers (even the Elect) will be bitten by the serpent and will experience being devoured by the wolves (ministers of Satan) who came into the church near the end of the 1st century A.D. Shortly after Paul's death, all the churches became apostate and nothing has changed since that time. All of the approximately 2,000 different denominations/sects of Christianity in the world are apostate. They all mix works with faith.

I would love to expand on my comments above with scripture. If you have any specific questions, I would be happy to answer them.

Joe