The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[WPM]

The great tribulation is referred to by Jesus in Matthew 24:15-30 as being just prior to His Second Coming in verse 30b.

This is talking about AD70. This is nothing to do with your imaginary future paradigm. I have addressed this several times and you have carefully ducked around it. You have to! Do you even know how biblical interpretation effectively happens? You interpret Scripture which Scripture! Look at the parallel passages and you will fit the jigsaw puzzle together.

What is "rabbit" the error ?

And please stop saying that have I been "taught" things from some human teacher. You don't know anything about my walk with the Lord.


What ? It is right in the text.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

You referenced v 4 not 2 or 3. Keep to the script. You are all over the place. Your posts contradict each other. I noticed you didn't quote all these versus together. That's because if you did then the reader will quickly see that you're contradicting the sacred text.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 says:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition [Gr. apōleia or destruction];
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth [katechō or restrains] that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity [Gr. anomia lawlessness] doth already work: only he who now letteth [katechō or restrains] will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked [Gr. anomos – or that lawless one] be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his his coming [Gr. parousia]:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

So, sometime prior to the second coming, antichrist under the control of Satan will be allowed to perform his activities unimpeded – with all power and with all deception. Before the coming of the Lord there is a great falling away. None of this happens after the coming of the Lord as you have been taught. It precedes it. That is you twisting Scripture again. That is what you do! It seems like Scripture is there to be played with in your estimation instead of read, embraced and applied. If you did then you would be Posttrib.

Antichrist is shown here to be destroyed by the coming of the Lord. Hello! He is gone then. This is the end. There is no space for your imaginary tribulation after the coming of Jesus.

 

[WPM]

There will be a temple built because in Revelation 11:1-2, John was told to measure the temple of God.

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

In case you missed it, the Old Testament temple has been destroyed along time ago, as Jesus predicted. It is redundant. It has been replaced by the New Testament temple. This will never be undone. There will be no rival to Christ and His people. That is where the presence of God and the favor of God resides today. Everywhere you look in the New Testament after the cross, the temple is Christ and His people. The spirit of antichrist will infiltrate the temple of God – God's people – at the end and try and corrupt their minds. But he cannot deceive the elective God. He can only deceive those amongst the people of God who are not real.

Hopefully you pick on my color coding. Green is for the mentions of the New Testament heavenly city. Blue is for the spiritual application of it with the bride of Christ.

While there are many references to the heavenly abode, the city of God, heavenly Zion, and Paradise, in the New Testament, we will look at “the holy city” or “holy Jerusalem.”

Under the old covenant, natural Jerusalem was considered “the holy city.” But after the removal of the old covenant and the introduction of the new heavenly Jerusalem became “the holy city” or “the city of my God.”

For example, in Matthew 4:5 we learn: “Then the devil took him to the holy city, and set him on the pinnacle of the temple.”

This was before the new covenant. Here we are likely looking at the physical temple in physical Jerusalem. But after the introduction of the new covenant through the death of Christ we see the movement away from natural Jerusalem to heavenly Jerusalem.

Most difficulty surrounds Matthew 27:53. What does this relate to? Is this speaking about the earthly city or the heavenly city? After the cross what was “the holy city”?

Matthew 27:53 tells us: “And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”

The theologians have debated this passage for years and have arrived at varying positions. A lot can be influenced by one’s theological position. I would conclude that this is talking about the heavenly abode. This was a heavenly testimony of the victory of Christ.

Paul compared earthly Jerusalem to heavenly Jerusalem under the new covenant in Galatians 4:22-31, “For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.”

We see the two Jerusalems compared and contrasted here, representing two different distinct peoples – the saved and the lost. The earthly city is a symbol of bondage, whereas the heavenly city is used as a picture of freedom. Unfortunately, Premils concentrate their eyes upon the wrong Jerusalem and elevate the wrong Israel. Many today have their eyes on the wrong Jerusalem and places hopes upon it that are in clear conflict with Scripture. They seem to forget, the old temporal earthly type has been replaced by the new heavenly eternal reality.

Hebrews 12: 22-24: “But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”

This relates to the here-and-now and are ongoing. It speaks of our immediate entry into the kingdom of God and our current spiritual standing in the New Jerusalem.

Revelation 11:8 explicitly states, “the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.”

This description was definitely not intended to be a commendation of Jerusalem but to describe it for exactly what it was/is. Many modern pro-Israel commentators today would probably throw the charge of anti-Semitic at such a charge, however, this charge comes from Christ.

The next greatest debate is over Revelation 11:1-2. Again, is this talking about the earthly or heavenly city?

Revelation 11:1-2: “And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein (the redeemed). But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles (unbelievers): and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.”

The greatest way to understand these challenging passages is to employ other relevant Scripture in the New Testament in order to aid our understanding. In this case, the other passages are all in the book of Revelation. This helps us grasp the authors intent. If we do that, we can only conclude that this is talking about the bride of Christ.

This text would seem to be insinuating that the world at the end will trample the saints of God down for a short season before the end.

Revelation 20:9 seems to parallel Revelation 11:1-2: “And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.”

There is no city mentioned or qualified in the Revelation under the new covenant to be called “the beloved city” or “the holy city” other than New Jerusalem (Christ’s bride). This telling us that the world will surround the saints before the end. Revelation 20 is the 7th of 7 parallel accounts that take us through the intra-Advent period to the coming of the Lord.

 

[WPM]

There will be a temple built because in Revelation 11:1-2, John was told to measure the temple of God.

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Neither you nor WPM are factoring in the end times time frames into your beliefs.



View attachment 47821

Revelation 3:12: “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

Revelation 21 and 22 calls heavenly Jerusalem “the holy city” three times.

Revelation 21:1-4 declares, “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle [Gr. skēnē] of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.”

The tabernacle of His body is now complete.

Revelation 21:9-10: “And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.”

The New Jerusalem is not just described as a city, it is also described as being the bride of Christ. This is similar to the redeemed Church being described as the temple of God made without hands in the New Testament. It is constructed with people not stones.

The New Jerusalem is described as both “that great city” and “the bride, the Lamb's wife.” This symbolism is no different from the faithful being described by the New Testament writers as stones in the temple of God made without hands.

Revelation 22:19: “And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”

 

[WPM]

A temple built with the "intent" to be for the worshiping and praise of God.

Why do you think Jesus actually destroyed the old covenant temple? Why do you think the curtain was cut in two? It was rendered redundant through the arrival of Christ – the eternal temple, and man's only redeemer. What is more, there is no more requirement for animal sacrifices. They were finished at the cross. The old covenant is gone forever. We are now in the new covenant period. The presence of God is no longer restricted to a building built by human hands. He resides within a spiritual temple throughout the world today that worship God in spirit and in truth.

Christ is the new covenant temple then. He is the final sacrifice for sin. The old covenant is abolished. I am not sure why you are promoting its restoration.

For what purpose? Why would we need it? There was a reason why the curtain was ripped in two. There was a reason the temple was destroyed in AD70. The temple has been rendered redundant. It has been replaced by a better temple.

Daniel 9:26 says: “the people of the prince that shall come (speaking of the Roman soldiers) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.”

In Daniel 9:27 after predicting that the old covenant would be removed, the angel predicted that God would destroy the temple (the centre-point of the sacrifices) forever. We learn: “for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”

The consummation is the one final future Coming of Christ.

We see the fulfilment of this in Christ’s words in Matthew 23:34-35: “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord (the consummation, as Daniel predicted).”

Christ continues (to remove any ambiguity as to what He was referring to) in Matthew 24:1-2, “And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

This couldn’t be clearer.

What was going to replace the old physical Jewish building in Jerusalem was not something that was restricted to one race but a global spiritual temple that embraced all nations equally.

In John 4:19-20 we see Christ addressing this subject, in response to a statement made by the woman at the well. The woman said to Christ, “Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.”

Christ responded in vv 21-24, “Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”

What Christ was teaching here was that a new economy was being introduced through His earthly ministry that would forever replace the old. No longer would the worship of the living God be restricted to a natural geographical land-mass or be centred upon a physical temporal brick building built with hands in earthly Jerusalem, rather, it would now be concentrated in a spiritual eternal temple (the redeemed Church) which is spiritual located within the heavenly New Jerusalem. That temple would not be restricted to one physical nation but would be situated throughout all the nations of the world.

Since Christ, the worship of God was no longer restricted to a physical earthly building but rather relocated to an invisible spiritual temple called the Church.

The Jews at the time of Christ, being ignorant and earthly minded, interpreted this statement to mean: He would destroy and rebuild the physical Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. The reading records, “Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?”

However, the next verse exposed their blindness, saying, “But he spake of the temple of his body” (v 21).

Christ spiritualizes the temple here. None could surely dispute this. There were 2 different mindsets in this picture. Christ’s heavenly mind-set presenting the introduction of the new covenant in the form of Himself and the Jews carnal earthly mind-set hankering towards an old inadequate system.

Christ also declared during His ministry, whilst standing in the actual temple, “I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple” (Matthew 12:6). However, the Jews in the main had No comprehension of that glorious statement. To this spiritual Temple would the nations finally find mercy, thus, fulfilling perfectly what the old temple couldn’t. And thus, through Himself (the living Temple), fulfilling Isaiah 2:2 that “all nations shall flow unto it.”

Granted, the temple was central to the Jewish faith. For anyone to intimate in any way that it would be destroyed was viewed as nothing short of blasphemy. However, Christ was redirecting their eyes from the old temporal building – which was an imperfect shadow and type of Himself – and pointing them towards the new all-sufficient eternal temple – in the form of His person. Through His impending death, the temporal temple and its ceremonies would be done away with.

Hebrews 9:11 directly rebukes those who look to an earthly carnal building in modern Israel. It explicitly states, “Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building.”

This is God’s perfect temple today – and it is eternal. This building will never fall, be replaced or share a central place with another.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There will be a temple built because in Revelation 11:1-2, John was told to measure the temple of God.

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

That's not talking about a literal physical temple. What do you think it means when it talks about John measuring "them that worship therein"? Their heights and weights? How many people are in a physical temple? Please explain that to me if this is supposed to be taken literally.

Also, you didn't address my point. Why not? I said this:

But, the problem is that such a temple is not what Paul would have called "the temple of God". You have no way around that. Any temple called "the temple of God" must be a true temple of God which some future temple built by Christ rejecting Jews would not be.

Please explain to me how a future physical temple built by Christ-rejecting Jews could be considered "the temple of God".

Neither you nor WPM are factoring in the end times time frames into your beliefs.

Yes, we are. Any other lies you would like to tell? It's not a good look, Doug. You are not factoring in the fact that passages like Luke 21:34-36 refer to the actual day that Christ returns and talks about escaping the wrath that He will send down on the entire earth that day and you somehow think it's referring a period of time lasting for years instead.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

A temple built with the "intent" to be for the worshiping and praise of God.

This is why it's very hard to take you seriously, Doug. Show me one other verse in all of scripture where "the temple of God" refers to anything but a true temple of God that God Himself would call "the temple of God". Some physical temple built by Christ-rejecting Jews doesn't qualify.

It's so clear that you have to resort to making things up that are foreign to scripture in order to get scripture to fit your doctrine. Never would a temple built with the supposed intent of worshiping God be called "the temple of God". No chance of that whatsoever. God Himself would not consider such a temple to be His temple. Nowhere does scripture prophesy anything about a fake "temple of God".

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Putting an end to the falling away and the man of sin as you are saying - is a positive thing, right.

Very positive. That will happen when Jesus returns. I very much look forward to that day.

So why would the Thessalonians have been concerned that the day of the Lord had already begun ?

We don't know that any of them were. Paul was talking about a hypothetical situation where IF they had heard about or received a letter about the day of the Lord having already begun they should not believe that because he had taught them that certain things had to happen first before the day of the Lord. So, if they allowed themselves to be deceived by any such teaching, he was reminding them about the things that had to happen first so they would know that the day of the Lord had not yet come.

He had taught them in a previous letter in 1 Thess 4:13:5:11 that the day of the Lord would include the rapture and the complete destruction of Christ's enemies. Which he reiterated in 2 Thess 1:7-10. So, if someone told them the day of the Lord was already at hand they could be deceived into thinking they missed being gathered to Christ. He had to remind them of what he taught them to make sure they understood what was actually supposed to happen in contrast to anything else they might hear or read about.

 

[WPM]

That's not talking about a literal physical temple. What do you think it means when it talks about John measuring "them that worship therein"? Their heights and weights? How many people are in a physical temple? Please explain that to me if this is supposed to be taken literally.

Also, you didn't address my point. Why not? I said this:


Please explain to me how a future physical temple built by Christ-rejecting Jews could be considered "the temple of God".


Yes, we are. Any other lies you would like to tell? It's not a good look, Doug. You are not factoring in the fact that passages like Luke 21:34-36 refer to the actual day that Christ returns and talks about escaping the wrath that He will send down on the entire earth that day and you somehow think it's referring a period of time lasting for years instead.

Premils habitually spiritualize what is literal and literalize what is spiritual.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The temple is not yet built. I agree on that point.

And is unlikely to be built until after the Gog/Magog event - because of the Muslim presence on the temple mount..

That the Antichrist goes into the temple (once built), sits, claiming to have God-hood - will be a sudden without warning act by the person.

Paul did not say anything about an act by a supposed Antichrist being sudden and unexpected, he said the day of the Lord would bring unexpected and "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape". You are blatantly taking what Paul said in 1 Thess 5:2-3 out of context here. Why? Why can you not be honest with scripture? What you are describing is not "sudden destruction".

Please try again and tell me your exact understanding is of the unexpected and "sudden destruction" that Paul wrote about. What will make it unexpected and sudden in your view?

 

[Douggg]

This is talking about AD70.

What ! Matthew 24:15-30 is about 70 AD ? Jesus was seen coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory - in 70 AD.

Are you preterist ?

So, sometime prior to the second coming, antichrist under the control of Satan will be allowed to perform his activities unimpeded – with all power and with all deception. Before the coming of the Lord there is a great falling away. None of this happens after the coming of the Lord as you have been taught. It precedes it.

You are playing word games. There is one Second Coming of Jesus back to stand on this earth.

Differently there is the coming of Jesus for the rapture, the gathering of the raptured and resurrected saints to meet Jesus in the air and taken to heaven.

And you are being very dishonest by continually saying "as you have been taught". Stop with those insertions in your posts.

 

[Douggg]

Very positive. That will happen when Jesus returns. I very much look forward to that day.


We don't know that any of them were. Paul was talking about a hypothetical situation where IF they had heard about or received a letter about the day of the Lord having already begun they should not believe that because he had taught them that certain things had to happen first before the day of the Lord. So, if they allowed themselves to be deceived by any such teaching, he was reminding them about the things that had to happen first so they would know that the day of the Lord had not yet come.

He had taught them in a previous letter in 1 Thess 4:13:5:11 that the day of the Lord would include the rapture and the complete destruction of Christ's enemies. Which he reiterated in 2 Thess 1:7-10. So, if someone told them the day of the Lord was already at hand they could be deceived into thinking they missed being gathered to Christ. He had to remind them of what he taught them to make sure they understood what was actually supposed to happen in contrast to anything else they might hear or read about.

Are both you and WPM preterists as well as being Amil ?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Are both you and WPM preterists as well as being Amil ?

No, we're not. So, can you please address what I said in my post instead of trying to create a distraction like this? What did I say in my post that would lead you to ask this question?

 

[Keraz]

Our Hope for the Future:
It seems that there are as many views of what God has planned for the end of this age, as there are people who study the subject. But there is only one actual future for us and those who teach false theories will be judged more severely. James 3:1
Then there is the bulk of Christians, who just simply don’t want to know, or find the prophetic Word just too hard to comprehend.

In our Bible, we are told: God does nothing without revealing His plan to His servants. Amos 3:7 Paul says: We are not in the dark, the Day of sudden destruction will not come upon us like a thief. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-6

We see in 2 Thessalonians 2:11… God puts those who do not open their minds to the love of the truth, under a compelling delusion, which makes them believe what is false. Then in Isaiah 29:9-14, talking to us, that is: the Christian peoples, the Laodicean type Church of today; we are…. pitiful wretches, we attend ‘church’ but our hearts are far from the Lord. Our worship is by rote and made up of rules taught from men. Therefore once more the Lord will astound His people, shock and amaze us.

Most of us won’t know His plans, because the wisdom of the wise will be removed and the discernment of the intelligent will be lost. Matthew 11:25
The Day is coming; When the wicked and godless will vanish and all who love evil will be cut down. Isaiah 29:20-21, Isaiah 66:15-17, Psalm 83, Rev. 6:12-17

Then: In that Day; the deaf will hear the words of scripture and the blinded will see through the impenetrable darkness. Isaiah 29:18 & 24 The lowly will once again rejoice in the Lord, as the Holy Land is regenerated into a fruitful garden Land. Ezekiel 36:8, Amos 9:13-15, Isaiah 35

That Day of fire and tempest, Malachi 4:1-3, is not a Day for all who believe in the Lord to panic or be frightened, for Righteousness will rise among them, as the Lord heals the wounds [of spiritual and physical exile, Ezekiel 37] inflicted upon His people. Isaiah 30:25-30, Zephaniah 3:8-10, Revelation 7:9-17, Luke 21:26-28

This is what we look forward to, our great hope for the future:
Ezekiel 34:11-16 Now, [that is: soon after the Day of the Lord’s wrath against the nations] I, Myself will search for and gather My people, I will rescue them for wherever they are scattered after that Day of cloud and darkness. I shall lead them out of the nations, Micah 2:12-13, Psalms 107, Isaiah 35 and bring them home to their own country. I shall make a Covenant with them to ensure peace and prosperity and they will have good leaders. Ezekiel 34:23-31, Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11

After they are settled, Jeremiah 30 & 31, the Lord will summon Gog to come down from the north and invade the Land recently restored from ruin, whose people are gathered from many nations and are now settled and prosperous. Ezekiel 38:8
This is in order for the Lord, through His people, to show Himself great and holy to the nations. Ezekiel 38:16

Later, the Leader of the One World Government, a ten region confederation, Daniel 7:24, Rev 17:12-13, will come to the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, and make a seven year treaty of peace with them. Daniel 9:27, He will break it at the mid-point and invade Beulah. Zechariah 14:1-2
Those people who refused to agree to a treaty with the leader of the OWG, will be taken to a place of safety for the final 3 ½ years of this age. Revelation 12:14

Those who did agree: Isaiah 28:14-15, must remain. They are seen in Zephaniah 14:1-2, Revelation 12:17
But this conquest of the holy Christian peoples, Daniel 7:25, Revelation 15:5-8, will trigger the Great Tribulation trumpet and bowl punishments.
Then; 1260 days later, the Lord Jesus will Return, destroy those attackers of Jerusalem, bind up Satan and commence His Millennial reign.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What ! Matthew 24:15-30 is about 70 AD ? Jesus was seen coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory - in 70 AD.

Are you preterist ?

Goodness sakes, Doug. How long have you talked to him about these things? Many years, right? You know that he has said MANY times that he believes Matthew 24:15-21 is related to 70 AD and Matthew 24:29-31 is related to the future second coming of Christ. So, didn't it occur to you that he might have missed that you put "Matthew 24:15-30" instead of "Matthew 24:15-21"? when he said it relates to 70 AD? It's very unusual for anyone to refer to "Matthew 24:15-30" as referring to one narrative the way you do.

Do you never consider what someone has said before when looking at what they are saying now while allowing that they might make a mistake or a typo or whatever here and there? Instead, you are going to think that he has changed his mind from what he has said repeatedly for many years about those verses?

 

[WPM]

What ! Matthew 24:15-30 is about 70 AD ? Jesus was seen coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory - in 70 AD.

Are you preterist ?

You are playing word games. There is one Second Coming of Jesus back to stand on this earth.

Differently there is the coming of Jesus for the rapture, the gathering of the raptured and resurrected saints to meet Jesus in the air and taken to heaven.

And you are being very dishonest by continually saying "as you have been taught". Stop with those insertions in your posts.

Read what I have previously presented and which Pretribbers have repeatedly ignored.

Read Scripture. Read history. Check out AD70.

This has already been long-fulfilled. Please address the biblical evidence.

Jesus, first of all, speaks about the destruction of the temple in AD70, as a result of Israel's unbelief. He then talks about a future climactic day in the future when every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Here were two key events that would happen in the then future. The disciples were obviously inquisitive as to when these would happen. They then asked two questions in Matthew 24 in response to our Lord’s words. Matthew 24:3 records:

1. “Tell us, when shall these things be?”
2. “and what shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end (sunteleías, meaning completion, or consummation) of the world (age)?”

This proves that the disciples were enquiring about the realization of these two aforementioned days. They wanted to know about their fulfillment. Sadly, Preterists and Premillennialists each ignore the other's events relating to the past and the future. Both are therefore missing the context and meaning. The context proves that Israel will be forced to cry "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" at Christ's future "parousia," at "the end of the age.”

Christ addressed both questions and both eras in chapter 24. However, because of the intermingling of His response, many Bible students suffer great confusion in identifying what aspect of the teaching relates to AD 70 and what relates to the second coming.
In His response to the first question in Matthew 24:15-22, He spoke of the end of the 40 year probationary period (AD 70), saying, “When ye (the disciples) therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, whoso readeth, let him understand: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation [Gr. thlipsis], such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.”

Mark 13:14-20 says, “when ye (the disciples) shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. For in those days shall be tribulation (thlipsis), such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.”

This can only refer to the wrath of God being poured out on Jerusalem that destroyed the existing socio-political/cultural/religious system of Judaism, which was an offence to God. This people were decimated. Their religious system was effectively brought to nought. Nothing before AD 70, or after it, could compare in regard to the extent of its demise. Luke 21:20-24 reinforces that we are looking at AD 70.

Luke’s parallel passage, in Luke 21:20-24, records, “when ye (the disciples) shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”

Please note the close correlation between these 3 accounts of the same event - AD70. A comparison of these three parallel narratives will see the correspondence in teaching. Pay especial notice of what is highlighted in brown. This proves that this is an historic event that pertains to the judgment of Jerusalem as a punishment for their rejection of Christ and has been long fulfilled.

Plainly: “the abomination of desolation … standing where it ought not” or standing “in the holy place” relates to the Roman soldiers that would destroy the city of Jerusalem. Luke adds meat to the bones, saying: “when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.” Here is the warning sign to run! There is also the limitation of that judgment so that the Gospel would spread to the nations. The Gospel spread as Jewish families were spread throughout the world.

The Lord tells us that unless this judgment upon Jerusalem was shortened “there should no flesh be saved” (Matthew 24:22). In essence, what He was saying was, there would have been no possibility of Jewish Christians surviving it and consequently no hope of a lost Gentile world receiving this great Gospel if God’s wrath would not have been limited to a short time-period in relative terms. If the wrath of God would have continued to be poured out on wicked man as it was on Jerusalem then mankind would have been finished. But it was restricted to Christ-rejecting Jerusalem.

How can futurists seriously relate these parallel accounts of the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, which resulted in the unbelieving Jews being dispersed to “all nations,” to a supposed seven-year end-time persecution of the Church of Jesus Christ? Remember, it was this awful approaching judgment upon the Jews that caused Christ to weep over Jerusalem, crying, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.”

 

[WPM]

Are both you and WPM preterists as well as being Amil ?

Most of us are partial preterist and partial futurist in some way, if we were honest. Maybe not you.

 

[Douggg]

It's very unusual for anyone to refer to "Matthew 24:15-30" as referring to one narrative the way you do.

No it is not. It is very common to those of us who hold the futurist premil view.

 

[Douggg]

Most of us are partial preterist and partial futurist in some way, if we were honest. Maybe not you.

You don't have timeline charts and you don't include any of the end times time frames in your posts.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No it is not. It is very common to those of us who hold the futurist premil view.

Let me clarify what I meant. Most do not see Matthew 24:4-14 as being fulfilled by 70 AD and then Matthew 24:15-30 as referring to the future as you do. So, because of that, you rarely see anyone reference Matthew 24:15-30 specifically as one narrative the way you do.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You don't have timeline charts and you don't include any of the end times time frames in your posts.

When talking about what will happen on the day Christ returns, as we have been doing, what point is there to referencing those time frames? You won't acknowledge that passages like Luke 21:34-36, 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 only refer to "that day" Jesus will return unexpectedly like a thief in the night which is when heaven and earth will pass away.