The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Douggg]

You have no idea. You can post what you've been taught on so many passages it is hard to take your posts serious.

The Lord is my teacher.

The third woe is the 7th Trumpet and the destruction that accompanies it at the climactic second coming.

What verse says that the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth is the sudden destruction by Jesus at His Second Coming ?

Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

------------------------------------------------------------

The problem with your understanding is that you are confusing the reaction by those in heaven in Revelation 11:15-19, when the 7th trumpet sounds, with what the actual 7th trumpet third woe is.

In Revelation 11:15-19, them in heaven are over-joyed when the 7th trumpet sounds, because it means the end of Satan - the troublemaker - and his mystical kingdom of Babylon the Great has come. Satan's kingdom will be dismantled over the short time, times, half time that he will have left.

 

[WPM]

I think you are interpreting "sudden destruction" as meaning exclusively as death. But destruction has a broader meaning. It can mean the destruction of their homes. their jobs, their retirements, their social order, etc.

Of course, I will agree with you that the "sudden destruction" includes death on a broad scale. But I disagree that everyone will die during that time.

But it says: none will escape. So, you are fighting with Scripture.

It seems like you are trying to dilute the meaning in order to allow Pretrib. You are manipulating the Word. Amils take the text literally. This is where we differ.

 

[WPM]

But I don't think immediate destruction is what Peter is intending. I think Peter was emphasizing that the scoffers would be caught unware by the sudden beginning of the day of the Lord.

Peter did reference Paul's epistles in verse 15- 16. So accordingly, we should consider what Paul said about the beginning of the day of the Lord as Paul enlightened the Thessalonians about in 2Thessalonians2:3-4. Those 2 things.

1. the falling away.
2. the revealing of the man of sin by his action of going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood.

You are TOTALLY butchering the text. Understandably so. The text strongly forbids Pretrib and Premil. This is a whole load of nothing.

 

[WPM]

The Lord is my teacher.


What verse says that the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth is the sudden destruction by Jesus at His Second Coming ?

Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

------------------------------------------------------------

The problem with your understanding is that you are confusing the reaction by those in heaven in Revelation 11:15-19, when the 7th trumpet sounds, with what the actual 7th trumpet third woe is.

In Revelation 11:15-19, them in heaven are over-joyed when the 7th trumpet sounds, because it means the end of Satan - the troublemaker - and his mystical kingdom of Babylon the Great has come. Satan's kingdom will be dismantled over the short time, times, half time that he will have left.

Do you have the ability to let the Bible speak for itself instead of imposing your views on the sacred text? The third woe is the 7th Trumpet and the destruction that accompanies it at the climactic second coming. The 7th trumpet is the last trump elsewhere in Scripture. This is the end of the world. Revelation is full of recaps. They give us different camera views of the end-time period. They look at the coming of the Lord from different angles.

Read the text. Let it speak for itself. It gets old how Pretribs manipulate the text to fit their error.

Revelation 11:14-19: “The second woe is past (the great battle); and, behold, the third woe (the last trump – the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ) cometh quickly. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."

The climactic Second coming is the 3rd woe!

This narrative, once again, clearly proves that the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ the eternal state which is an everlasting reign – i.e. without measure or without end.

The day of the Lord – the day of judgment – has arrived in which all will be judged. This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Also, the undoubted finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” not for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.” Those who reject such evidence do so (in the main) in order to support the Pretribulationist doctrine.

At the last trumpet, Christ will “reward” the saints and “destroy” the wicked. It is “the time of the dead, that they should be judged.” One wonders how anyone could not see a general resurrection of the dead here in order to enable a general judgment.

 

[The Light]

This is spot on. A major problem with the pretrib doctrine is not differentiating between a spiritual time of tribulation before Christ returns and the wrath of God that comes down on the day He returns. This leads them to accuse us post-tribs of believing that we will go through God's wrath, which, of course, we do not believe at all.

Nope. Not a problem at all when we realize there are two raptures. One for the Church Pretrib and one for the 12 tribes across the earth post trib...............which is pre wrath.

And you do have the Church going through the wrath of God when we are clearly told that we are not appointed to wrath. Over and over again your beliefs do not line up with scripture. You need to tell your teachers that they are clueless and confused.

 

[The Light]

The text strongly forbids Pretrib and Premil. This is a whole load of nothing.

Not a snowballs chance. The scripture clearly supports a pre trib rapture.

 

[WPM]

Nope. Not a problem at all when we realize there are two raptures. One for the Church Pretrib and one for the 12 tribes across the earth post trib...............which is pre wrath.

And you do have the Church going through the wrath of God when we are clearly told that we are not appointed to wrath. Over and over again your beliefs do not line up with scripture. You need to tell your teachers that they are clueless and confused.

LOL. And where is your Scripture? Do you even think your beliefs need hard Scripture? This is frankly ridiculous. You are full of noise. You have not one single prooftext.

 

[WPM]

Not a snowballs chance. The scripture clearly supports a pre trib rapture.

Really? I think you think that you stating an opinion makes it a fact. That is not true. You have to actually quote the text aunt show the biblical evidence for it to be true. That is something you cannot do. Read what the text says without any manipulation.

2 Peter 3:3-15 tells us: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming (parousia)? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation.”

We glean a lot of helpful detail here relating to what happens to the creature and creation when Jesus comes, and what immediately follows. If we are able to divorce ourselves from what we have been taught, we are looking at a very climactic picture.

· Unquestionably, the focus of this message is directed to the end-time-cynics who question God.
· These fools question God keeping His “promise.” What promise? It is “the promise of his coming.”
· The scorn and derision of these foolish last days scoffers and mockers are directed specifically towards the reality and occurrence of Christ’s Advent in glory.
· It is not in any way concentrated upon a supposed group of ‘millennial scoffers’ 1,000 years later. If this is supposed to be a collection of ‘millennial scoffers’ 1,000 years after the second coming, why would they be saying, “Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation”? Such a notion is a complete absurdity as Christ’s coming (or parousia) is long past.
· This text shows us that today is the only day of salvation. Peter responds to the mockers scoffing at the apparent delay in Christ's return: “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). Romans 2:4 reaffirms that salvation is limited to this side of the second coming.
· The actual wrath described by the Holy Spirit comes suddenly and unexpectedly upon these foolish last days scoffers and mockers. There is no escape. They are the recipients of total destruction.
· We also see in this reading that “the day of the Lord will arrive (or heko) as a thief in the night; in the which (en heé)” or literally translated “in which” (the word “the” being absent from the original). The detail described arrives with Jesus.
· What happens to creation when Jesus arrives? 1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise. 2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’, 3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly. 4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly. The Premillennialist claims to be a literalist, so there is no spiritualization that can explain this away. It is water-tight.
· The description of the destruction could not be more comprehensive. It is undoubtedly the end. It involves wholesale and unavoidable annihilation for the wicked. It embraces the full gamut of fallen creation.
· What is this replaced with? A future millennium filled with sin and sinners, crying and dying? No. The Holy Spirit tells us that it the “new heavens and a new earth” that follows Christ’s return.
· The arrival of the “new heavens and a new earth” are here significantly connected to “his promise.”
· The Holy Spirit then assures the last days elect that their lot is not wrath or destruction. They experience the new heavens and new earth at His appearing.

Fallen creation is going to be purged of all corruption when Jesus comes. The wicked will be destroyed and the earth will be regenerated by fire. The redeemed will be glorified to inherit the new glorified earth. These scoffers are the same fools that Paul speaks of in I Thessalonians 5:2-7 who Jesus will take vengeance on when He comes and will destroy because of their rejection of Christ. This judgment is shown to be wholesale, immediate and unavoidable for the rebel.

 

[WPM]

And you do have the Church going through the wrath of God when we are clearly told that we are not appointed to wrath. Over and over again your beliefs do not line up with scripture. You need to tell your teachers that they are clueless and confused.

Amils believe we are rescued from the final wrath. Any wrath on the wicked today we are exempted from.

 

[The Light]

LOL. And where is your Scripture? Do you even think your beliefs need hard Scripture? This is frankly ridiculous. You are full of noise. You have not one single prooftext.

I have posted numerous scriptures. But alas there are 5 wise and 5 foolish. The wise are watching and ready as our Lord instructed. The foolish cackle in blindness.

 

[The Light]

Really? I think you think that you stating an opinion makes it a fact. That is not true. You have to actually quote the text aunt show the biblical evidence for it to be true. That is something you cannot do. Read what the text says without any manipulation.

2 Peter 3:3-15 tells us: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming (parousia)? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation.”

We glean a lot of helpful detail here relating to what happens to the creature and creation when Jesus comes, and what immediately follows. If we are able to divorce ourselves from what we have been taught, we are looking at a very climactic picture.

· Unquestionably, the focus of this message is directed to the end-time-cynics who question God.
· These fools question God keeping His “promise.” What promise? It is “the promise of his coming.”
· The scorn and derision of these foolish last days scoffers and mockers are directed specifically towards the reality and occurrence of Christ’s Advent in glory.
· It is not in any way concentrated upon a supposed group of ‘millennial scoffers’ 1,000 years later. If this is supposed to be a collection of ‘millennial scoffers’ 1,000 years after the second coming, why would they be saying, “Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation”? Such a notion is a complete absurdity as Christ’s coming (or parousia) is long past.
· This text shows us that today is the only day of salvation. Peter responds to the mockers scoffing at the apparent delay in Christ's return: “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). Romans 2:4 reaffirms that salvation is limited to this side of the second coming.
· The actual wrath described by the Holy Spirit comes suddenly and unexpectedly upon these foolish last days scoffers and mockers. There is no escape. They are the recipients of total destruction.
· We also see in this reading that “the day of the Lord will arrive (or heko) as a thief in the night; in the which (en heé)” or literally translated “in which” (the word “the” being absent from the original). The detail described arrives with Jesus.
· What happens to creation when Jesus arrives? 1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise. 2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’, 3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly. 4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly. The Premillennialist claims to be a literalist, so there is no spiritualization that can explain this away. It is water-tight.
· The description of the destruction could not be more comprehensive. It is undoubtedly the end. It involves wholesale and unavoidable annihilation for the wicked. It embraces the full gamut of fallen creation.
· What is this replaced with? A future millennium filled with sin and sinners, crying and dying? No. The Holy Spirit tells us that it the “new heavens and a new earth” that follows Christ’s return.
· The arrival of the “new heavens and a new earth” are here significantly connected to “his promise.”
· The Holy Spirit then assures the last days elect that their lot is not wrath or destruction. They experience the new heavens and new earth at His appearing.

Fallen creation is going to be purged of all corruption when Jesus comes. The wicked will be destroyed and the earth will be regenerated by fire. The redeemed will be glorified to inherit the new glorified earth. These scoffers are the same fools that Paul speaks of in I Thessalonians 5:2-7 who Jesus will take vengeance on when He comes and will destroy because of their rejection of Christ. This judgment is shown to be wholesale, immediate and unavoidable for the rebel.

When it is realized there are two raptures this goes up in smoke.

 

[The Light]

Amils believe we are rescued from the final wrath. Any wrath on the wicked today we are exempted from.

Amils are pretty clueless. Five wise, five foolish.

 

[Douggg]

But it says: none will escape. So, you are fighting with Scripture.

It seems like you are trying to dilute the meaning in order to allow Pretrib. You are manipulating the Word. Amils take the text literally. This is where we differ.

It means that the beginning of the day of the Lord will impact everyone on earth at that time. The text does not say everyone with die.

 

[Douggg]

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The wake up, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

What translation are you using that has "The wake up" in the text of verse 15 ?

 

[Douggg]

The 7th trumpet is the last trump elsewhere in Scripture.

That's not the issue. The issue is what is the seventh trumpet third woe to the inhabiters of the earth according to the text.

In Revelation 12:12, which woe is this to the inhabiters of the earth ?

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

 

[MA2444]

You are TOTALLY butchering the text. Understandably so. The text strongly forbids Pretrib and Premil. This is a whole load of nothing.

Scripture?

 

[WPM]

I have posted numerous scriptures. But alas there are 5 wise and 5 foolish. The wise are watching and ready as our Lord instructed. The foolish cackle in blindness.

We all agree that this is the catching away. But what are those left behind for? Does it say they are left behind for a tribulation period or for sudden destruction? Destruction! That is why Jesus says: remember Lot's wife. That is why He tells us wherever the dead bodies are there are vultures. This is the end!

So, this is not remotely a Pretrib prooftext. Quite the opposite! It forbids it.

 

[WPM]

What translation are you using that has "The wake up" in the text of verse 15 ?

I do not honestly know how that come up. I have amended to correct KJV rendering.

 

[WPM]

It means that the beginning of the day of the Lord will impact everyone on earth at that time. The text does not say everyone with die.

Yes it does!

Jesus likened that day to Noah and Lot's day. How many escaped then?

Do you literally believe the wicked will experience "sudden destruction" from His appearance as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:3)?
Do you literally believe the wicked "shall not escape" as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:3)?

 

[WPM]

That's not the issue. The issue is what is the seventh trumpet third woe to the inhabiters of the earth according to the text.

In Revelation 12:12, which woe is this to the inhabiters of the earth ?

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

I already showed you what the Bible said about the third woe. The passage you quoted does not mention the third woe.

It seems like in your estimation, any time the word "woe" comes up in Revelation it refers to the 3rd woe? I believe your confusion emanates from the fact that you view Revelation as a chronological book. That is the only way you can come to such an assumption.

I already gave you the context for the third wow and you simply ignored it. It is hard to engage with you when you do that.

Revelation 11:14-19: “The second woe is past (the great battle); and, behold, the third woe (the last trump – the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ) cometh quickly. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."

The climactic Second coming is the 3rd woe! This is the end. This is the general judgment. This is when all rebellion is finally subjugateed. Check it out. You miss how Revelation is written and parallels.

Revelation 12 takes us right back to the first advent. It shows us Christ "the man child" being caught up to rule and reign during this intra-Advent period.