The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Douggg]

But The Apostle Paul had it figured out right?
He didn't totally confuse the issues like some do.

Here is the table I put together of all the end times time frames given in the bible with the specific verses which have the time frames in them. Are any of these found in epistles written by Paul ? No.

They are in three books of the bible. Revelation, Daniel, Ezekiel.

 

[MA2444]

Can you give me another example in Scripture of such a decapitation of a harmonious time-period - like where God says 7 days and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 days, or 7 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 years, or 70 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 70 years? Anything?

Your asking me to show you where Daniel fits in with your wacky theology? I can't do that. If you want to discuss what Daniel says, we can do that, but you demanding that everything be in the one verse...is stupid.

GB.

 

[Douggg]

But it seems that many others here make the same mistake of thinking when Jesus Returns, He will destroy the earth

I don't think that when Jesus Returns that He will destroy the earth.

 

[MA2444]

Slow your roll, man. No one is saying pretrib people are evil or going to hell. Do you really think anyone here would say that? Of course not, dude. Maybe try asking for clarification first before thinking anyone is saying that. Okay? Great.

Hey man he used the term promote posttrib. Like'sit' a salvific issue or something. What will the Lord hold the pretribbers guilty for, for watching for Him before wpm started watching, lol. So pretribbers are more eager to see the Lord's return? What's wrong with that? Why does Post Trib need Promoted?

I tell you brother, that has an evil tone to it. Why are you guys obsessed with provong pretribbers wrong and trying everything in your power to get us to stop watching! That's dark no matter the doctrine.

 

[MA2444]

No true believer, who keeps their faith, will go to hell. John 3:16
But because of false beliefs, esp teaching and promoting unscriptural theories, they will lose any rewards. 1 Corinthians 3:13-15

Are you pretrib or posttrib? Is it my false beliefs or theirs?

If iyou meant it was my false beliefs, then pray tell brother what danger am I in for trying to teach others to put their heart in the right place to be so expectant that He might just show up earlier than expected so watch today! Tomorrow!

If pretribbers are right, nothing happens to us, but many people who got talked out of believeing pretrib will be left behind and that would be terrible to have to live through the Tribulation.

So I'm going to lose my reward for that? Lol. I dont want to see you or any of those other guys miss the rapture boat! I wouldnt widh that i anybody. That guy dont even understand the parable of the virgins or know that oil means the Holy Spirit. I feel bad for him. He wont be ready.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Here is the table I put together of all the end times time frames given in the bible with the specific verses which have the time frames in them. Are any of these found in epistles written by Paul ? No.

They are in three books of the bible. Revelation, Daniel, Ezekiel.


View attachment 47670

Actually, yes, but he doesn't give exact amounts of time when describing them. And some of those times you're showing there are symbolic rather than literal. I don't expect you to understand what I'm saying since you are a hyper-literalist and hyper-futurist, but I'm saying this for others who actually have an open mind and actually have discernment.

For example, let's take what you call "Satan's persecution". Paul writes about that.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

2 Timothy 3:11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Paul even said that he took part in it:

1 Corinthians 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

For another example, let's take the two witnesses testifying. They are figuratively called "two olive trees" (Revelation 11:4). Paul wrote about them:

Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

I color coded this to show the parts the refer to the wild olive tree, representing the Gentiles and the natural olive tree (formerly consisting of only natural branches) which represents the Israelites. Israelite unbelievers were cut off and Gentile believers (wild olive tree) were grafted in with Israelite believers and they together "partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree". Together, Gentile and Israelite believers make up the church and witness to the world which is what the two witnesses do.

That the two witnesses witness throughout the world can be seen by what is written here:

Revelation 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

So, while Paul may not have referred to the amount of time during which certain things happen, he did write about them and that contradicts your claim that he didn't.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Hey man he used the term promote posttrib. Like'sit' a salvific issue or something.

Where? Show me. If someone did do that, I promise you that I will rebuke them severely.

What will the Lord hold the pretribbers guilty for, for watching for Him before wpm started watching, lol.

No. Who said that?

So pretribbers are more eager to see the Lord's return?

No. Why would they be? Do you remember anything I said to you about how I am excited about His return? Do you imagine that you are somehow more excited than I am just because you are pretrib?

What's wrong with that? Why does Post Trib need Promoted?

Post-trib is true, that's why. As you've been shown repeatedly.

I tell you brother, that has an evil tone to it.

What does? I think you are imagining things.

Why are you guys obsessed with provong pretribbers wrong and trying everything in your power to get us to stop watching!

We are not obsessed, we like to promote the truth. Is there something wrong with that? Pretrib can be a dangerous teaching as it can lead people into a false sense of security and make them think they don't need to worry about persecution or tribulation because they will be taken off the earth before it happens. I'm not saying you think that way, I'm saying it can lead some to think that way and that is why this topic is important to me. And we do not tell you to stop watching, so please stop making things up. That isn't helpful.

That's dark no matter the doctrine.

What is? I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[JLB]

Yes, but that doesn't mean we will ever know the day or hour of His coming in case that's what you're saying (not sure if you are or not).

On the one hand yes, I agree, we don't need to set dates about a certain day, but keep watching and praying as we see the Day drawing nearer.


On the other hand, by saying no man knows the day or hour, Jesus is indicating to His disciples, who understood Jewish idiomatic language
that He was returning during the feast of trumpets or Rosh Hashana; The Head of the year.

The way it would begin is those who were watching would blow the trumpet when the new moon was sighted, which could have been on the 29th day or the 30th day of the month, thus the saying no man knows the day or the hour.




JLB

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't think that when Jesus Returns that He will destroy the earth.

He won't annihilate it, but He will burn it up and renew it at His return. Peter indicated the following will happen in fulfillment of the promise of His second coming:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Notice that Peter said that we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. What promise is that? The one Peter alluded to earlier:

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Do we look forward to the new heavens and new earth to appear 1,000+ years after His second coming or do we look forward to the new heavens and new earth in accordance to His second coming, which would mean that promise will be fulfilled by His second coming itself. On the day He returns He will renew the heavens and the earth, resulting in the new heavens and new earth.

Do you think the following won't occur when Jesus returns?

1 Thess 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

When exactly do you think the "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" will occur in relation to Christ's return? A thousand years (plus Satan's little season) later even though the text gives no such indication of that whatsoever? That's not how sudden and unexpected destruction works. It isn't delayed by 1,000+ years.

 

[MA2444]

On the one hand yes, I agree, we don't need to set dates about a certain day, but keep watching and praying as we see the Day drawing nearer.


On the other hand, by saying no man knows the day or hour, Jesus is indicating to His disciples, who understood Jewish idiomatic language
that He was returning during the feast of trumpets or Rosh Hashana; The Head of the year.

The way it would begin is those who were watching would blow the trumpet when the new moon was sighted, which could have been on the 29th day or the 30th day of the month, thus the saying no man knows the day or the hour.




JLB

You're here...There cant be more than one JLB and that's just how you talk! How are you doing, Brother! Welcome! We got a tough crowd here man, lol. I'm Edward from the other board. A few others are here too. I dont have your number anymore, I broke my phone and had to wipe it and didnt get back my contacts. All those game pics gone too dangit, lol.

I did wind up moving to Ohio. I didnt want to at first, but you gave me the confirmation too! So Jonah came to mind and I decided Ohio might not be so bad after all! So here I am, and the Lord blessed me very much because I obeyed.

You should still have my contact info. My number hasnt changed. Shoot me a text or gimmee a call so we can catch up!

Good to see you here!

 

[JLB]

I'm Edward from the other board.

Bless you my brother.

Glad to hear from you.

God's Grace asked me to come over from the other Forum.

 

[JLB]

You're here...There cant be more than one JLB and that's just how you talk! How are you doing, Brother! Welcome! We got a tough crowd here man, lol. I'm Edward from the other board. A few others are here too. I dont have your number anymore, I broke my phone and had to wipe it and didnt get back my contacts. All those game pics gone too dangit, lol.

I did wind up moving to Ohio. I didnt want to at first, but you gave me the confirmation too! So Jonah came to mind and I decided Ohio might not be so bad after all! So here I am, and the Lord blessed me very much because I obeyed.

You should still have my contact info. My number hasnt changed. Shoot me a text or gimmee a call so we can catch up!

Good to see you here!

I sent you a text with my new number.

 

[MA2444]

Just like I thought. If Scripture cuts across your erroneous charts it is avoided and rejected. The fact that you duck every single question is testimony that it exposes your error. You cannot even address the words of Christ that show the second coming to be climatic.

You do more to promote Posttrib (by your avoidance) than I possibly can.

Where? Show me. If someone did do that, I promise you that I will rebuke them severely.

Your Pastor said it! Wpm. That's from post 317 pn page 16

He better give you a dollar back now, lol.

No. Who said that?

That's sorta how you and WPM have been making it sound. The, Absurdity of Pre-Trib Logic. and the zeal which he declares us to be so very wrong it's like he seems to be declaring us evil or something and I think we should keep it in perspective. It is a non salvific issue and the worst thing that could happen to a pretribber for being overly excited and watching for the Lord way early...is He could make Jesus feel good maybe even have a belly laugh.

You dont cancel your date with your girl because she was excited and showed up two hours early!

But on the off chance that pretribbers are right, what's the worst thing that could happen to a post tribber by not being ready and watching? They still have their salvation but now they have to go through the great trib.

So this sort of non salvific spiritual issue does not require the hostility put forth by posttribbers and ya'll should keep it in perspective.

No. Why would they be? Do you remember anything I said to you about how I am excited about His return? Do you imagine that you are somehow more excited than I am just because you are pretrib?

Matthew 24:44
44 You also must be ready all the time, for the Son of Man will come when least expected..../NLT

It says all the time. It doesnt say after the 6th seal, it doesnt say after the Tribulation. It says All The Time. Can we not understand that...all the time? All the time is now Brother.

Or is that symbolic somehow? Lol.

 

[MA2444]

Post-trib is true, that's why. As you've been shown repeatedly.

Ok so then would you pease give me your exegis on Matthew 24:44 because unless all the time doesnt mean all the time? So please explain that one because we know that all scripture has to agree with all other scripture. Let scripture interpret scripture.

Because in my mind, I most certainly have not been shown anything of the sort. Not even once.

What does? I think you are imagining things.

Not about the way wpm talks. It's been shown to actually be a minor issue unless one counts having to live through the Trib to be major. I myself would, but that's me. So I have to wonder why wpm so vehemently addresses the ptrtribbers so hostily? That he has evil intent is a possible answer.

 

[MA2444]

We are not obsessed, we like to promote the truth. Is there something wrong with that? Pretrib can be a dangerous teaching as it can lead people into a false sense of security and make them think they don't need to worry about persecution or tribulation because they will be taken off the earth before it happens. I'm not saying you think that way, I'm saying it can lead some to think that way and that is why this topic is important to me. And we do not tell you to stop watching, so please stop making things up. That isn't helpful.

A false sense of security you say? We should worry about persecution & Tribulations?
Balderdash son! Allow me:

2nd Timothy 1:7
7 For God has not given us a spirit of fear and timidity, but of power, love, and self-discipline.../NLT

Philipians 4:6
6 Don’t worry about anything; instead, pray about everything. Tell God what you need, and thank him for all he has done.../NLT

Psalm 23:4
4 Even when I walk
through the darkest valley,[a]
I will not be afraid,
for you are close beside me.
Your rod and your staff
protect and comfort me.../NLT

You were saying....? Ok consider this. If scripture repeats something, what does that mean? Does it mean it is important and He wants us to learn that? I would thik so.

So would you like to guess what is the most repeated phrase in the entire bible, repeated more times than anything else...The phrase is: Do not Fear, Fear not, Be not afraid! Over and over and over and over again. Through the entire Bible! And you want to warn me to be afraid? I'm ssorry brother but I have to pass on that. A false sense of security?

No Brother. It is a true sense of security. Maybe your faith is weak in this area? The Lord hasnt ever saved you yet? I have a couple few testimonies so for me He has and I praise the Lord for it! Oh it was a great day when 3 Police car teams were searching for me walking in the neighbrohood to arrest me. I had just been in a big auto accident and could not walk more than 6 or 8 blocks from my house. 3 teams! Couldnt find me, never saw me. I could see them at times, but they never seen me. I will admit that my spidey sense was on high alert because of the situation, but actual fear? No. I was to busy talking to the Holy Spirit and focusing on Him to be afraid! You want to hear that testimony? They never did find me and the Lord told me when it was safe for me to go back home! I hid under the shadow of the Almighty, just like psalm 91 says...Glory to God for that save! It's a great testimony Fear might've been outside knocking but I never answered the door, lol. I was busy clinging to the Lord!

 

[MA2444]

I sent you a text with my new number.

I got it.

I was still posttrib when I was on the other board, huh? I'm hard core pretrib again now! Not a decision I made lightly either. If I'm going to be wrong, then I am going to err on the side of faith.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your Pastor said it! Wpm. That's from post 317 pn page 16

He better give you a dollar back now, lol.

Was it too much trouble for you to copy and paste what he said to show me? Why do you make things up? What do you think that says about you? Here is what he said:

Just like I thought. If Scripture cuts across your erroneous charts it is avoided and rejected. The fact that you duck every single question is testimony that it exposes your error. You cannot even address the words of Christ that show the second coming to be climatic.

You do more to promote Posttrib (by your avoidance) than I possibly can.

Where did he say anything here to indicate that those who believe in pre-trib are not saved? You said "Hey man he used the term promote posttrib. Like'sit' a salvific issue or something.". Where did he say anything about salvation here? Nowhere. You apparently misunderstood me (again) and thought I was saying he didn't say anything about post-trib, but what I was saying is that he didn't relate it to salvation in any way. And he didn't.

That's sorta how you and WPM have been making it sound. The, Absurdity of Pre-Trib Logic. and the zeal which he declares us to be so very wrong it's like he seems to be declaring us evil or something and I think we should keep it in perspective.

We both truly believe that doctrine is absurd, but neither of us have EVER said that what you believe in relation to pre-trib vs. post-trib has anything to do with salvation. Not even close. Look, he and I are passionate about the word of God and defending it. Sue us. I don't believe there's anything wrong with that. Unless we actually did make what one's end times doctrine is a salvation issue, but we don't do that. I can't help it if you think that, but you have to admit that we have never actually said that. And can you at least give me the benefit of the doubt when I say I do not believe it is a salvation issue? It's not.

It is a non salvific issue and the worst thing that could happen to a pretribber for being overly excited and watching for the Lord way early...is He could make Jesus feel good maybe even have a belly laugh.

There can be other problems with believing in pretrib and I already explained that to you. If what I said doesn't apply to you, then great. Noting for you to worry about then.

But on the off chance that pretribbers are right, what's the worst thing that could happen to a post tribber by not being ready and watching? They still have their salvation but now they have to go through the great trib.

What post-tribber here has ever indicated that they are not ready and watching? None that I've seen. So, why are you judging all of us by making it as if we are not ready and not watching?

So this sort of non salvific spiritual issue does not require the hostility put forth by posttribbers and ya'll should keep it in perspective.

As if no hostility comes from the pre-trib side? LOL. Please be serious. The truth is, that we probably all could stand to calm down a bit, but at the same time I think there are much worse things than being overly passionate about the word of God. Wouldn't you agree?

I should have stuck with my just agreeing to disagree with you instead of talking to you more. This is exhausting. LOL.

Matthew 24:44
44 You also must be ready all the time, for the Son of Man will come when least expected..../NLT

It says all the time. It doesnt say after the 6th seal, it doesnt say after the Tribulation. It says All The Time. Can we not understand that...all the time? All the time is now Brother.

Or is that symbolic somehow? Lol.

That was after Jesus indicated that there would first be wars, earthquakes, famines and such and those things would not even mean the end was near. Instead, things like many turning away from the faith and an increase in wickedness and an increase in deception by false Christs and false prophets and such would indicate that His coming was near. So, why would you ignore all that when reading Matthew 24:44?

Paul taught the same thing in 2 Thess 2:1-3. So, why would they teach things that would let us know it was near if it was always imminent? You are not even considering this. But, what they didn't do is give any specific date or timeline of when it would be so that is why it wouldn't be entirely clear as to exactly when He would come, so it's best to just be ready at all times. Understand?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

A false sense of security you say? We should worry about persecution & Tribulations?
Balderdash son! Allow me:

No, we shouldn't and I didn't say that. You are always arguing with your straw man which is a huge waste of time. I said this:

"I'm not saying you think that way, I'm saying it can lead some to think that way". Can you see that? Do you understand what I'm saying there? Why do you take offense to what I said when I specifically said "I'm not saying you think that way" and regarding others I said "it CAN lead some to think that way"? Did you even read that? Can you try to slow down and read everything I say instead of just skimming over it and taking offense at something you see that I've said without seeing the context?

So would you like to guess what is the most repeated phrase in the entire bible, repeated more times than anything else...The phrase is: Do not Fear, Fear not, Be not afraid! Over and over and over and over again. Through the entire Bible! And you want to warn me to be afraid? I'm ssorry brother but I have to pass on that. A false sense of security?

Duuuuuuuude. Again, I said "I'm not saying you think that way". Is there something about that clear, straightforward statement that you don't understand? Let me know what you don't understand about it and I'll try to clarify it for you.

No Brother. It is a true sense of security. Maybe your faith is weak in this area? The Lord hasnt ever saved you yet?

Of course he has. Many times. Look what happens when you don't read what someone says carefully. It leads you to ask offensive questions like this. Please take a bit more time and read things carefully, so you avoid doing things like this.

Look, big man. We need to wrap this up. The misunderstandings you constantly have of what I'm saying have gotten old. I'm tired of having to correct all these misunderstandings repeatedly. I don't want to do it anymore. So, let's agree to disagree and move on.

 

[JLB]

I got it.

I was still posttrib when I was on the other board, huh? I'm hard core pretrib again now! Not a decision I made lightly either. If I'm going to be wrong, then I am going to err on the side of faith.

• Please remember that the Resurrection and Rapture occur at the coming of the Lord.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

• Also the Resurrection of the dead in Christ occurs before the Rapture.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thessalonians 4:16

• As well as the Resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture takes place as one event at His coming, whereby we will all be caught up together in the air and we will all be with Him.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17


Please consider these things.




JLB

 

[MA2444]

Where did he say anything here to indicate that those who believe in pre-trib are not saved? You said "Hey man he used the term promote posttrib. Like'sit' a salvific issue or something.". Where did he say anything about salvation here? Nowhere. You apparently misunderstood me (again) and thought I was saying he didn't say anything about post-trib, but what I was saying is that he didn't relate it to salvation in any way. And he didn't.

Was it too much trouble for you to copy and paste what he said to show me? Why do you make things up? What do you think that says about you? Here is what he said:

I did, I guess you missed it. Here it is again.

Just like I thought. If Scripture cuts across your erroneous charts it is avoided and rejected. The fact that you duck every single question is testimony that it exposes your error. You cannot even address the words of Christ that show the second coming to be climatic.

You do more to promote Posttrib (by your avoidance) than I possibly can.

That's the post. The last line. When I said that, you said no posttribber ever said that quote it and I'll severely rebuke them. WPM said he wants to promote post trib. Which is a ridiculous thig to say if you think about it.

We both truly believe that doctrine is absurd, but neither of us have EVER said that what you believe in relation to pre-trib vs. post-trib has anything to do with salvation. Not even close. Look, he and I are passionate about the word of God and defending it. Sue us. I don't believe there's anything wrong with that. Unless we actually did make what one's end times doctrine is a salvation issue, but we don't do that. I can't help it if you think that, but you have to admit that we have never actually said that. And can you at least give me the benefit of the doubt when I say I do not believe it is a salvation issue? It's not.

Maybe I was able to draw conclusions from his words and yours too to a lesser extent?
Ok so it is not a salvific issue. That said, why should posttrib be promoted? You answered this once and said we should worry about persecution and tribulation...and I have shown you alredy that, that is not so. We are under orders from our Commander in Chief to not fear. I gave you 3 scriptures to back it up...would you like 10 more? Or else, is there another good reason that Posttrib should be promoted?