The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[WPM]

Absolutely. He doesn't even attempt to address your arguments, which, in my view, is an admission that he knows your arguments are correct and he has no answer for them. And he's too prideful to admit it. He cares more about showing off his erroneous charts than about the truth taught in scripture.

That is because when their theory is refuted, they have no defence. When truth is presented, they have no rebuttal. The debate has been long won.

 

[Douggg]

Just like I thought. If Scripture cuts across your erroneous charts it is avoided and rejected. The fact that you duck every single question is testimony that it exposes your error. You cannot even address the words of Christ that show the second coming to be climatic.

None of your questions incorporate the end times time frames of events.

 

[WPM]

Ok this is from the Galiliean wedding thread (Post 1195-Pg. 60) and since it's been asked many times if I could show that the rapture is pretrib and the trib lasts for 7 years. Let's start i the book of Daniel and start from what I wrote in the other thread, and I want to clarify any thing that you may need clarified. Ask away and I'll do my best to repharse it in an effective manner.

Your whole argument falls apart on the fact that Daniel 9 is the foundational verse that Pretrib is based on. Of course, many of us have discovered, the passage is nothing to do with some future 7 years as you intimate.

Where are the 2 comings of the Lord in Daniel 9 separated by 7 years?

What other harmonious time period is butchered like that in Scripture?

Is there a gap between the 7th and the 8th week?

Daniel 9:2 says: “In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplication, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes.”

Are these seventy years linear, congruent and sequential?

Can you give me another example in Scripture of such a decapitation of a harmonious time-period - like where God says 7 days and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 days, or 7 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 years, or 70 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 70 years? Anything?

 

[WPM]

None of your questions incorporate the end times time frames of events.

What? These passages are totally applicable and your charts are all you have. The Scriptures refute your position. I will repost what you say is not end-times:

You are constantly rewriting Scripture in order to try and let your doctrine fit. But it will not. That is because you are trying to force a round peg into the square hole.

1. Do you literally believe Christ is coming suddenly and unexpectedly "as a thief in the night" as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:2 and 2 Peter 3:10)?
2. Do you literally believe the wicked will experience "sudden destruction" from His appearance as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:3)?
3. Do you literally believe the wicked "shall not escape" as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:3)?
4. Do you literally believe that "the heavens shall pass away with a great noise" when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
5. Do you literally believe that "the elements shall melt with fervent heat" when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10 & 12)?
6. Do you literally believe that "the earth also ... shall be burned up" when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
7. Do you literally believe that "the works that are therein [the earth] shall be burned up" when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
8. Do you literally believe that the righteous are actually looking "for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness” when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:13)?

Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

How many wicked survived in Noah's day?
How many wicked survived in Sodom?

You know, in both of these examples, all the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed. So will it be when He appears. All the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed, so will it be when He appears.

It is both the suddenness and the scale of the destruction happening that is enlightening for the end-time Bible student.

The plain focus of this teaching in Luke 17 (reference Noah and Lot’s day) is the nature and degree of the judgment that befell the wicked in these two familiar Old Testament stories and especially the extent of that particular wrath. The key element and major emphasis of this discourse is the fact (speaking of the ungodly) that God “destroyed them all.” The comprehensive destruction of the wicked in both of these examples is the important lesson of the narrative; both the whole world of Noah’s day and the whole individual city of Sodom in Lot’s day saw the immediate and complete rescue of the entire righteous coupled together with the immediate and complete destruction of the entire wicked.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

None of your questions incorporate the end times time frames of events.

 

[Douggg]

Your whole argument falls apart on the fact that Daniel 9 is the foundational verse that Pretrib is based on. Of course, many of us have discovered, the passage is nothing to do with some future 7 years as you intimate.

The 7 years of Daniel 9:27 are the same 7 years of Ezekiel 39:9 following the Gog/Magog event. Armageddon is in Ezekiel 39:17-20, at the end of the 7 years.

In Ezekiel 39:21-29 is Jesus Himself speaking in the text having returned to this earth (sometime in the near future). Ezekiel 39:28 corresponds to Matthew 24:31, the gathering of the elect.

 

[WPM]

The 7 years of Daniel 9:27 are the same 7 years of Ezekiel 39:9 following the Gog/Magog event. Armageddon is in Ezekiel 39:17-20, at the end of the 7 years.

In Ezekiel 39:21-29 is Jesus Himself speaking in the text having returned to this earth (sometime in the near future). Ezekiel 39:28 corresponds to Matthew 24:31, the gathering of the elect.



View attachment 47653

What? Because you say so? I do not think so. This is based on your bogus charts not God's Word.

You just rejected 3 clear end-time passages and applied 2 OT passages that have nothing to do with it. Unbelievable! This reveals how deceptive and dangerous Pretrib is.

 

[JLB]

Do you literally believe Christ is coming suddenly and unexpectedly "as a thief in the night" as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:2 and 2 Peter 3:10)?

For the wicked He will come as a thief in the night.


For the Christians who literally believe His word, he will not come as a thief in the night.

But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4

• But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief

We have the signs He gave for us to watch for, just before His coming.




JLB

 

[WPM]

View attachment 47649

Exactly. They do more to support our cause than we do. Just give them enough rope ...

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The 7 years of Daniel 9:27 are the same 7 years of Ezekiel 39:9 following the Gog/Magog event. Armageddon is in Ezekiel 39:17-20, at the end of the 7 years.

In Ezekiel 39:21-29 is Jesus Himself speaking in the text having returned to this earth (sometime in the near future). Ezekiel 39:28 corresponds to Matthew 24:31, the gathering of the elect.



View attachment 47653

The 7 years of Daniel 9:27 are the same 7 years of Ezekiel 39:9 following the Gog/Magog event. Armageddon is in Ezekiel 39:17-20, at the end of the 7 years.

In Ezekiel 39:21-29 is Jesus Himself speaking in the text having returned to this earth (sometime in the near future). Ezekiel 39:28 corresponds to Matthew 24:31, the gathering of the elect.



View attachment 47653

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Exactly. They do more to support our cause than we do. Just give them enough rope ...

Right. Some things that people here say are so ridiculous that we don't even need to bother refuting it. Everyone can see how ridiculous it is and they don't need our help to see it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

For the wicked He will come as a thief in the night.


For the Christians who literally believe His word, he will not come as a thief in the night.

But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4

• But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief

We have the signs He gave for us to watch for, just before His coming.




JLB

Yes, but that doesn't mean we will ever know the day or hour of His coming in case that's what you're saying (not sure if you are or not). It just means if we are ready for it then it won't take us completely off guard like it will unbelievers because we are expecting Him to come.

This is Jesus giving a message to believers:

Mark 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. 34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. 35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: 36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. 37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

The difference between us and unbelievers is not that we will know the day or hour of His coming and they will not, but rather that we will be ready for Him whenever He comes and they will not.

 

[Douggg]

What? Because you say so? I do not think so. This is based on your bogus charts not God's Word.

You just rejected 3 clear end-time passages and applied 2 OT passages that have nothing to do with it. Unbelievable! This reveals how deceptive and dangerous Pretrib is.

My charts are based on what is in the scriptures. You have no charts because you cannot make a timeline because you have not figured out the end times time frames of events in the bible, how they fit together.

 

[jeffweeder]

I guess that's what it takes to get him back here. You just need to think about him. :)

Yeah, good to get the band back together

 

[jeffweeder]

My charts are based on what is in the scriptures. You have no charts because you cannot make a timeline because you have not figured out the end times time frames of events in the bible, how they fit together.

But The Apostle Paul had it figured out right?
He didn't totally confuse the issues like some do.

 

[MA2444]

You do more to promote Posttrib (by your avoidance) than I possibly can.

That sounds odd. WHy are you trying to promote posttrib? Because if you teach people that they shouldnt be looking for their Lord sooner rather than later. There's still time to party, he said.

So why are the pretrib people evil or going to hell? Because they chose to watch for the Lord sooner than you want them too? That's as kooky as it gets.

 

[Keraz]

My charts are based on what is in the scriptures. You have no charts because you cannot make a timeline because you have not figured out the end times time frames of events in the bible, how they fit together.

It is when you re-arrange Revelation; placing the Sixth Seal at the Return; that puts all your 'charts' in error.

But it seems that many others here make the same mistake of thinking when Jesus Returns, He will destroy the earth. This is not what we are told in Revelation 20, and many Prophesies tell of the glorious period of the reign of King Jesus for the next thousand years.
It will be the terrible devastation of the Lords Day of fiery wrath, which will commence all the Prophesied end time events. Something we should all know about and be ready for, as is quite evident by the signs, it is close now.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But The Apostle Paul had it figured out right?
He didn't totally confuse the issues like some do.

Yep. He had it figured it out without needing any charts to figure it out and without needing any charts to explain it to others. Imagine that.

 

[Keraz]

So why are the pretrib people evil or going to hell?

No true believer, who keeps their faith, will go to hell. John 3:16
But because of false beliefs, esp teaching and promoting unscriptural theories, they will lose any rewards. 1 Corinthians 3:13-15

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That sounds odd. WHy are you trying to promote posttrib? Because if you teach people that they shouldnt be looking for their Lord sooner rather than later. There's still time to party, he said.

So why are the pretrib people evil or going to hell? Because they chose to watch for the Lord sooner than you want them too? That's as kooky as it gets.

Slow your roll, man. No one is saying pretrib people are evil or going to hell. Do you really think anyone here would say that? Of course not, dude. Maybe try asking for clarification first before thinking anyone is saying that. Okay? Great.