The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[WPM]

Lol
You just posted that AFTER the trib angels gather from heaven.
Lol. In the pretrib rapture taught by the Bible, Jesus gathers from the earth.
Lol, you just posted " before the flood, pre flood, pretrib one is taken/left.
Then in that prefllod/trib setting. JESUS COMMANDS to watch and be ready

Then you ironically claim there are no verses. While leaving us in your false logic without a single postrib rapture verse!!!!!
Lol

• Does Jesus have 5 or 10 brides in your estimation?
• Do you have to be a female virgin to make the rapture?
• Do you have to have a literal lamp burning with oil at the actual moment Jesus comes to perform your Pretrib rapture?

 

[Douggg]

• There is no ushering the Church into heaven in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.

It is not ushering. It is caught up to meet the Lord in the air, to forever be with the Lord, 1Thessalonians4:17.

And it is 1Thessalonians 4:14-5:11. You left off the rapture/resurrection verses in 1Thessalonains5:10-11.

There is no 3rd coming in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.

No one is claiming a 3rd coming. That is post-trib putting words in other people's mouth. There is one Second Coming of Jesus, to stand and be present on this present earth to begin the 1000 year millennium reign on this present earth.

Jesus's First Coming to walk this earth was back in the first century.

Jesus's coming for the rapture/resurrection will be before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act of 2Thessalonians2:4. It will not be post-trib.

There are no survivors in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5. None shall escape.

It does not say "no survivors". What it says is that them saying peace and safety will not escape going through the sudden beginning of the day of the Lord. In Zechariah 14, are them who survive the great tribulation, to be rescued by Jesus at His Second Coming.

What there is in the text is "sudden destruction" accompanying Christ's return from which no one survives. This support Posttrib/Amillenialism and forbids both Pretrib and Premil.

The sudden destruction does not mean all flesh shall be destroyed, but that the time of God's wrath being poured out there will be many who die.

The post-trib/amil view is invalid. No-one is going to be saying "peace and safety" during the great tribulation. The great tribulation begins when the abomination of desolation is set up on the temple mount. Matthew 24:15-21, Daniel 12:11-12.

You need to make a timeline chart of events which organizes your claims in a comprehensive manner. Like this....







Also, you need to work on understanding all of the end times time frames presented in the bible.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It is not ushering. It is caught up to meet the Lord in the air, to forever be with the Lord, 1Thessalonians4:17.

And it is 1Thessalonians 4:14-5:11. You left off the rapture/resurrection verses in 1Thessalonains5:10-11.

LOL. Talk about nitpicking. Oh no, he left out 2 verses of Paul's narrative. That really changes everything, doesn't it? I'm kidding and making light of your silly need to point out something that is irrelevant to the point being made. If you really want to be technical about it, the narrative goes from 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11.

No one is claiming a 3rd coming. That is post-trib putting words in other people's mouth.

Oh, really? Obviously, we all know He has already come once. Are you saying you don't believe He will come again after this second coming of Christ:

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

There is one Second Coming of Jesus, to stand and be present on this present earth to begin the 1000 year millennium reign on this present earth.

Jesus's First Coming to walk this earth was back in the first century.

He will never stand on this earth as we know it again. Scripture teaches that He will burn it up and renew it when He returns (2 Peter 3:10-13) which will result in the new earth.

Jesus's coming for the rapture/resurrection will be before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act of 2Thessalonians2:4. It will not be post-trib.

Nevermind that you're wrong in your understanding of 2 Thess 2:4, but you seem to somehow miss that Paul indicated that what is described in 2 Thess 2:4 would need to happen first BEFORE the rapture.

2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

It does not say "no survivors". What it says is that them saying peace and safety will not escape going through the sudden beginning of the day of the Lord. In Zechariah 14, are them who survive the great tribulation, to be rescued by Jesus at His Second Coming.

The sudden destruction does not mean all flesh shall be destroyed, but that the time of God's wrath being poured out there will be many who die.

Do you think Paul and Peter were not familiar with Zechariah 14? I'm sure you don't and you know that they were. And, yet, they wrote this about the scope of destruction that will occur suddenly and unexpectedly like a thief in the night on the day Christ returns:

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Now, Paul was not specific about what would cause the "sudden destruction", but he did imply something about the scope of the destruction by saying "they shall not escape" it. He is implying there that no one will escape. But, if I didn't have any other scripture to back that up, you could say it doesn't specifically say that so that doesn't prove anything with complete certainty. But, I do have other scripture to back up my understanding of 1 Thess 5:2-3. And here it is:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

This passage proves that the "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" when the day of the Lord (the day Christ returns) arrives is global and will burn up the entire earth. So, literally no mortal human beings will escape that. And there is no indication whatsoever from either Paul or Peter that this global destruction happens some period of time after the day of the Lord initially arrives. Instead, they indicate that it occurs upon the arrival of the day of the Lord. It happens in direct conjunction with the arrival of the day of the Lord. It happens immediately when the day of the Lord arrives. It has to mean that because otherwise people could have time to find a way to escape it. But, since it is sudden and unexpected there is no time to escape. It will happen immediately after Jesus descends from heaven and gathers His people to Himself in the air. And why wouldn't it? Why would Jesus want to take his sweet time destroying His enemies after He has come from heaven? That makes no sense.

 

[rwb]

It is not ushering. It is caught up to meet the Lord in the air, to forever be with the Lord, 1Thessalonians4:17.

And it is 1Thessalonians 4:14-5:11. You left off the rapture/resurrection verses in 1Thessalonains5:10-11.

These passages speak of the second coming of Christ, when the saints will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air PHYSICALLY! Observed being bodily resurrected from physical death to immortal, incorruptible everlasting life. If saints are not bodily/physically resurrected to meet the Lord in the air, why does John write "their enemies beheld them"?

Revelation 11:11-12 (KJV) And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Our spirit alive through the Spirit of life from God will return with Christ to our mortal, dead, physical body once again returning to them the breath of life. How are these saints with the Lord since they have physically died? What life returns with Christ? It's not our mortal body that is dead in the grave. It's the spiritual body of believers that ascended to heaven while the body of flesh returned to the dust of the earth.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Paul assures us of this truth when he writes that even after physical death believers are still spiritually alive to be present with the Lord in heaven. Our physical body is not present with the Lord after death, so what part of us will be present with the Lord if not the spiritual body of believers? Because "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (KJV) Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Saints who are physically dead when Christ returns will be bodily resurrected immortal and incorruptible to meet the Lord in the air. There would be no witnesses of them being caught up to meet the Lord in the air (raptured) unless there is first a physical resurrection from the dead. Saints still physically alive when Christ returns shall also be changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible physical body to be caught up together to Christ with those resurrected from physical death.

 

[WPM]

It is not ushering. It is caught up to meet the Lord in the air, to forever be with the Lord, 1Thessalonians4:17.

And it is 1Thessalonians 4:14-5:11. You left off the rapture/resurrection verses in 1Thessalonains5:10-11.


No one is claiming a 3rd coming. That is post-trib putting words in other people's mouth. There is one Second Coming of Jesus, to stand and be present on this present earth to begin the 1000 year millennium reign on this present earth.

Jesus's First Coming to walk this earth was back in the first century.

Jesus's coming for the rapture/resurrection will be before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act of 2Thessalonians2:4. It will not be post-trib.



It does not say "no survivors". What it says is that them saying peace and safety will not escape going through the sudden beginning of the day of the Lord. In Zechariah 14, are them who survive the great tribulation, to be rescued by Jesus at His Second Coming.





View attachment 47638




The sudden destruction does not mean all flesh shall be destroyed, but that the time of God's wrath being poured out there will be many who die.

The post-trib/amil view is invalid. No-one is going to be saying "peace and safety" during the great tribulation. The great tribulation begins when the abomination of desolation is set up on the temple mount. Matthew 24:15-21, Daniel 12:11-12.

You need to make a timeline chart of events which organizes your claims in a comprehensive manner. Like this....




View attachment 47639


Also, you need to work on understanding all of the end times time frames presented in the bible.


View attachment 47640

You are constantly rewriting Scripture in order to try and let your doctrine fit. But it will not. That is because you are trying to force a round peg into the square hole.

1. Do you literally believe Christ is coming suddenly and unexpectedly "as a thief in the night" as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:2 and 2 Peter 3:10)?
2. Do you literally believe the wicked will experience "sudden destruction" from His appearance as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:3)?
3. Do you literally believe the wicked "shall not escape" as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:3)?
4. Do you literally believe that "the heavens shall pass away with a great noise" when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
5. Do you literally believe that "the elements shall melt with fervent heat" when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10 & 12)?
6. Do you literally believe that "the earth also ... shall be burned up" when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
7. Do you literally believe that "the works that are therein [the earth] shall be burned up" when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
8. Do you literally believe that the righteous are actually looking "for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness” when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:13)?

Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

How many wicked survived in Noah's day?
How many wicked survived in Sodom?

You know, in both of these examples, all the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed. So will it be when He appears. All the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed, so will it be when He appears.

It is both the suddenness and the scale of the destruction happening that is enlightening for the end-time Bible student.

The plain focus of this teaching in Luke 17 (reference Noah and Lot’s day) is the nature and degree of the judgment that befell the wicked in these two familiar Old Testament stories and especially the extent of that particular wrath. The key element and major emphasis of this discourse is the fact (speaking of the ungodly) that God “destroyed them all.” The comprehensive destruction of the wicked in both of these examples is the important lesson of the narrative; both the whole world of Noah’s day and the whole individual city of Sodom in Lot’s day saw the immediate and complete rescue of the entire righteous coupled together with the immediate and complete destruction of the entire wicked.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are constantly rewriting Scripture in order to try and let your doctrine fit. But it will not. That is because you are trying to force a round peg into the square hole.

1. Do you literally believe Christ is coming suddenly and unexpectedly "as a thief in the night" as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:2 and 2 Peter 3:10)?
2. Do you literally believe the wicked will experience "sudden destruction" from His appearance as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:3)?
3. Do you literally believe the wicked "shall not escape" as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:3)?
4. Do you literally believe that "the heavens shall pass away with a great noise" when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
5. Do you literally believe that "the elements shall melt with fervent heat" when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10 & 12)?
6. Do you literally believe that "the earth also ... shall be burned up" when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
7. Do you literally believe that "the works that are therein [the earth] shall be burned up" when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
8. Do you literally believe that the righteous are actually looking "for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness” when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:13)?

Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

How many wicked survived in Noah's day?
How many wicked survived in Sodom?

You know, in both of these examples, all the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed. So will it be when He appears. All the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed, so will it be when He appears.

It is both the suddenness and the scale of the destruction happening that is enlightening for the end-time Bible student.

The plain focus of this teaching in Luke 17 (reference Noah and Lot’s day) is the nature and degree of the judgment that befell the wicked in these two familiar Old Testament stories and especially the extent of that particular wrath. The key element and major emphasis of this discourse is the fact (speaking of the ungodly) that God “destroyed them all.” The comprehensive destruction of the wicked in both of these examples is the important lesson of the narrative; both the whole world of Noah’s day and the whole individual city of Sodom in Lot’s day saw the immediate and complete rescue of the entire righteous coupled together with the immediate and complete destruction of the entire wicked.

What you're saying here is so clear and undeniable that is just boggles my mind that anyone would deny any of this. They have to ignore how Jesus compared the scale of destruction on the day He returns to the scale of destruction on the day Noah entered the ark and the day Lot went out of Sodom in order to keep their Premil doctrine afloat. Jesus clearly and undeniably compared the scope of the destruction on the day of His return to the scope of the destruction of those events which clearly involved COMPLETE destruction. But, premil does not believe COMPLETE destruction will occur on the day Christ returns despite what Jesus, Paul, Peter and John (Rev 19:17-18) taught about that.

Some people care more about believing what they want to believe than about believing what scripture teaches regardless of whether or not it lines up with what they want to happen.

 

[MA2444]

How would I know? Based on other things you've said, I had no reason to think you were joking. Are you never serious then? How can I know when you are being serious?

Fair enough. I've been cracking jokes and puns for a long time now.Sometimes I speak in a lite mannered way but am being serious. Not that watching for the Lord at the window because can you imagine being alive and standing when He gets here? To have actually been looking into the sky with Him on our heart? And see Him?! Wow!

I understand scripture just fine, but your words are very far below scripture. You do not communicate clearly. That is not my fault.

Maybe I dont communicate clearly enough? I'm no Pastor or Teacher. We're just two Believers talking online. I do what I can. I have good days and bad days just like everyone else. Where you fail is getting hostile and becoming brick wallish instead of asking for clarification? Just a thought.

Where did you say anything about watching to not be deceived? Am I supposed to be able to just know what you believe even when you don't explain it?

You had just said to me that it doesnt mean to literally watch the sky. And you quoted it and were explaining why I was wrong, but the onlly thing I could see by your explaination is watch and be not deceived, so I thought that's what you meant.

Good grief, dude. I would never criticize someone for being excited about the Lord's return. That's one reason I can't stand preterism. They tend to focus far more on 70 AD than Christ's glorious return. You clearly don't know me at all. And I mean not at all. Not even close. You are the one who doesn't understand anything I or scripture says. It's very ironic for you to say that to me.

It must be all those insulting posts that you wrote in the other thread? You come across like a brick wall many times.

Why are you insulted when YOU are the one who just wants to act like a comedian all the time, making it difficult to know when you are being serious and when you are joking?

Uh-Oh I must've touched a nerve. Good grief dude we're just two guys talking! Lighten up! Geez.

 

[MA2444]

Dude, will you please grow up? You talk like a middle schooler. You ramble on and on while saying nothing. Stop wasting your time saying things that add nothing to the discussion. It's very hard to take you seriously when you do that. Especially when you attribute things someone else has said to me. I have never asked you "for the scripture that says the rapture is pretrib and the tribulation is 7 years, the 70th week of Daniel.". Not once.

Oh my gosh, did you break a nail or something? So it might have been WPM who said that, but aint you two like two peas in a pod?! You agree with absolutely everything he says. So big deal!

While I would agree with the notion that not being able to provide any explicit scripture to support your view can show a weakness in your view, I certainly understand how something can be strongly implied in scripture even if it's not explicitly indicated. So, I am open to you showing me how scripture implicitly teaches your view without demanding you show me where it's taught explicitly. Okay? Do you think you can stop making assumptions about me based on things you either imagine me saying or based on things other people have said?

Fair enough.

I just have to stop you here. Do you want to be taken seriously or not? Comments like this don't help at all. How exactly am I and other post-tribbers asleep? Do you understand that Paul was contrasting saved people with unsaved people there? Those who are asleep are in spiritual darkness and are lost. So, this comes across as you calling post-tribbers like me lost and unsaved people. That you are saying we're not Christians. Stop this nonsense if you want to be taken seriously.

I'm sorry, did I get that mixed up? I thought I was explaining my view to you? And you want to explain your view to me? You've been asking for scripture and I looked it up so I can copy paste for you. Incidently, I discovered why you dont even want to look it up! There's a lot of pages there to go through, kind of a pain, lol.

Paul is not saying to watch for the Lord there, he's saying the same thing Jesus said in Matthew 24. We have to watch that we're not deceived and watch that we are saying in the spiritual light while avoiding being in spiritual darkness like unsaved people are.

Didnt you just say it doesnt mean watch the sky but watch to not be deceived? I dunno what you want.

 

[Douggg]

1. Do you literally believe Christ is coming suddenly and unexpectedly "as a thief in the night" as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:2 and 2 Peter 3:10)?
2. Do you literally believe the wicked will experience "sudden destruction" from His appearance as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:3)?
3. Do you literally believe the wicked "shall not escape" as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:3)?
4. Do you literally believe that "the heavens shall pass away with a great noise" when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
5. Do you literally believe that "the elements shall melt with fervent heat" when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10 & 12)?
6. Do you literally believe that "the earth also ... shall be burned up" when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
7. Do you literally believe that "the works that are therein [the earth] shall be burned up" when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
8. Do you literally believe that the righteous are actually looking "for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness” when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:13)?

Go back and incorporate the end times time frame into each of your questions. You have not thought anything through.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Fair enough. I've been cracking jokes and puns for a long time now.Sometimes I speak in a lite mannered way but am being serious. Not that watching for the Lord at the window because can you imagine being alive and standing when He gets here? To have actually been looking into the sky with Him on our heart? And see Him?! Wow!

Yes, that would be awesome. I'm with you there.

Maybe I dont communicate clearly enough?

Not for me, anyway.

I'm no Pastor or Teacher.

Well, I believe I am a teacher and that's partly why I'm here (also here to fellowship and learn).

We're just two Believers talking online. I do what I can. I have good days and bad days just like everyone else. Where you fail is getting hostile and becoming brick wallish instead of asking for clarification? Just a thought.

Do you imagine you haven't gotten hostile at all? Come on now. I guess you know how to push my buttons. I admit that I don't have a lot of patience for childishness when trying to have an adult discussion. I'm fine with humor, but I don't think we need to have constant humor when discussing serious topics.

You had just said to me that it doesnt mean to literally watch the sky. And you quoted it and were explaining why I was wrong, but the onlly thing I could see by your explaination is watch and be not deceived, so I thought that's what you meant.

For us to watch is primarily about us watching what's going on around us spiritually so that we are not deceived. That's what Jesus wants us to do and that is what Paul talked about as well. But, if you want to peak up in the sky once in awhile to see if Jesus is coming yet, I don't have a problem with that.

It must be all those insulting posts that you wrote in the other thread? You come across like a brick wall many times.

You have made insulting posts yourself, so please don't act like you are innocent. Let's try to stop the insults altogether and just discuss scripture. Deal? If we disagree we can disagree respectfully. That's what I would much prefer.

Uh-Oh I must've touched a nerve. Good grief dude we're just two guys talking! Lighten up! Geez.

Good grief yourself. Again, I'm okay with occasional humor, but when it's constant how do I know when you're being serious or not? This has nothing to do with me needing to lighten up (you have no idea who I am, dude...I love humor), but rather has to do with communicating more clearly so we don't end up wasting time having to clarify what we're saying.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Oh my gosh, did you break a nail or something? So it might have been WPM who said that, but aint you two like two peas in a pod?! You agree with absolutely everything he says. So big deal!

You jealous, bro? LOL. Take it easy, dude. My goodness. Can we please both stop wasting our time with this kind of nonsense? I think we can. Let's at least try.

I'm sorry, did I get that mixed up? I thought I was explaining my view to you? And you want to explain your view to me? You've been asking for scripture and I looked it up so I can copy paste for you. Incidently, I discovered why you dont even want to look it up! There's a lot of pages there to go through, kind of a pain, lol.

Can you explain your view without the insults like saying post-tribbers are represented by the ones Paul says are asleep in 1 Thess 5. Do you somehow not understand that the ones who are asleep are the same ones who are in spiritual darkness and will have "sudden destruction" come upon them from which "they shall not escape"? Is that how you think of post-tribbers?

Didnt you just say it doesnt mean watch the sky but watch to not be deceived? I dunno what you want.

It looks like it might be impossible for us to have a good discussion because we can't understand each other, for whatever reason. And neither of us likes the other's style of communication, either. So, I think we're at the point where we just need to respectfully agree to disagree and move on. Thanks for the discussion...what I could understand of it, anyway. ;)

 

[MA2444]

You jealous, bro? LOL. Take it easy, dude. My goodness. Can we please both stop wasting our time with this kind of nonsense? I think we can. Let's at least try.

I'll stop if you stop. But if you want to slings jabs, that can be fun too, lol.

Can you explain your view without the insults like saying post-tribbers are represented by the ones Paul says are asleep in 1 Thess 5. Do you somehow not understand that the ones who are asleep are the same ones who are in spiritual darkness and will have "sudden destruction" come upon them from which "they shall not escape"? Is that how you think of post-tribbers?

It looks like it might be impossible for us to have a good discussion because we can't understand each other, for whatever reason. And neither of us likes the other's style of communication, either. So, I think we're at the point where we just need to respectfully agree to disagree and move on. Thanks for the discussion...what I could understand of it, anyway. ;)

Maybe you simply ask for clarification or chew on it for a bit before you freak out and start blabbering I dont understand that Whats that mean you must be an idiot because I dont understand what your even saying...and all that stuff.

 

[MA2444]

Do you imagine you haven't gotten hostile at all? Come on now. I guess you know how to push my buttons. I admit that I don't have a lot of patience for childishness when trying to have an adult discussion. I'm fine with humor, but I don't think we need to have constant humor when discussing serious topics.

You have made insulting posts yourself, so please don't act like you are innocent. Let's try to stop the insults altogether and just discuss scripture. Deal? If we disagree we can disagree respectfully. That's what I would much prefer.

Sure I can play those games too! I'm the king of the Comeback. If it gets tiring for you, you can stop, the I'll stop too.

 

[MA2444]

Good grief yourself. Again, I'm okay with occasional humor, but when it's constant how do I know when you're being serious or not? This has nothing to do with me needing to lighten up (you have no idea who I am, dude...I love humor), but rather has to do with communicating more clearly so we don't end up wasting time having to clarify what we're saying.

It's not constant. If you dont want to ask for clarification, we dont have to argue about it. You can just keep the disagreement to yourself and not be hostile in your reply and I'll be good. But you should make an effort to approach a differing view point in conversation nuetrally. Isnt that Teaching 101? You should know that, being a teacher.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'll stop if you stop. But if you want to slings jabs, that can be fun too, lol.

For a little while maybe and then it gets old. Especially since I'm primarily here to discuss scripture, which is no joke. Maybe there's a different forum where we can trade jokes back and forth. I have some good, clean ones.

Maybe you simply ask for clarification or chew on it for a bit before you freak out and start blabbering I dont understand that Whats that mean you must be an idiot because I dont understand what your even saying...and all that stuff.

I have asked for clarification and you just repeat the same things, so I don't get the impression that you're capable of clarifying things any more than you already have. Also, I never called you an idiot. It has nothing to do with anyone being an idiot, but rather has to do with each of us having very different communication styles and very different approaches to interpreting scripture. That leads to misunderstandings. Which I've grown tired of at this point. It happens. Let's move on instead of continuing to annoy each other. I think that's for the best. We're both excited about meeting Jesus when He returns, so let's just have fellowship over that.

It's not constant. If you dont want to ask for clarification, we dont have to argue about it. You can just keep the disagreement to yourself and not be hostile in your reply and I'll be good. But you should make an effort to approach a differing view point in conversation nuetrally. Isnt that Teaching 101? You should know that, being a teacher.

We have gone back and forth how many times? I've lost count. And we've gotten nowhere. Sometimes, as a teacher, I have to know when it's just not worth the time and effort anymore and it's better to move on to other things. That's the point that it's gotten to as far as you and I are concerned. It's just the way it is. God bless you, friend and I hope nothing but the best for your life going forward. I hope we will see each other "in the air" some day and be able to just laugh at all this discussion since it won't matter anymore.

 

[MA2444]

For a little while maybe and then it gets old. Especially since I'm primarily here to discuss scripture, which is no joke.

Agreed. So then, shall we?

I have asked for clarification and you just repeat the same things, so I don't get the impression that you're capable of clarifying things any more than you already have. Also, I never called you an idiot. It has nothing to do with anyone being an idiot, but rather has to do with each of us having very different communication styles and very different approaches to interpreting scripture. That leads to misunderstandings. Which I've grown tired of at this point. It happens. Let's move on instead of continuing to annoy each other. I think that's for the best. We're both exciting about meeting Jesus when He returns, so let's just have fellowship over that.

Now that post just radiates good vibes. I can feel your effort in your words. Thank you.

So does that mean I cant just copy paste my other posts now? I have to go through them and paraphrase them all. Uhhhhhh. I'll try if we stay cool.

 

[WPM]

Go back and incorporate the end times time frame into each of your questions. You have not thought anything through.

View attachment 47644

Just like I thought. If Scripture cuts across your erroneous charts it is avoided and rejected. The fact that you duck every single question is testimony that it exposes your error. You cannot even address the words of Christ that show the second coming to be climatic.

You do more to promote Posttrib (by your avoidance) than I possibly can.

 

[MA2444]

Ok this is from the Galiliean wedding thread (Post 1195-Pg. 60) and since it's been asked many times if I could show that the rapture is pretrib and the trib lasts for 7 years. Let's start i the book of Daniel and start from what I wrote in the other thread, and I want to clarify any thing that you may need clarified. Ask away and I'll do my best to repharse it in an effective manner.

Yep. The book of Daniel is probably the most accurate and proving book of the Bible. Ezekial and even Jeremiah speaks on the same things. That's why I've said before, if you dont understand Dniel (the OT) then you wont understand Revelation. Daniel told them in prophecy the exact day that Messiah would reveal Himself, and it worked out to the very day that Jesus made His Trriumphant entry into Jerusalem. (Then Messiah was cut off and crucified.)


V 25 prophecises the first 69 weeks of the 70 and after Jesus was crucified and appeared to accomplish nothing. It says (in a different verse) that the 70th week begins the 70th and final week of Daniel's 70 weeks. That's where the gap came from. It's been over 2000 years since then and no Covenant has been confirmed by the antichrist yet. The math to when Jesus made his Triumphant entry was done from the Antazerxes decree. (and 70 yrs later the temple was destroyed).

But what of other Time periods? I havent ignored Daniel 7, I think I even posted a scripture from Daniel 7 in this thread somewhere. But I don't have have it available to memory right now. Everytime I read it, a little bit more of it sticks. And the rest go into my notes. IOW, I may just be behind you on the yellow brick road? I'll get there eventually. The more I read it the more it sticks and gives another brush stroke to the big picture.

Oh, the 1260 years? Prophetical days can be days months or years. But it tells you what it's using, like you've shown in your post once already. I seem to have a different view because
Historicist interpreters have usually understood the "time, times and half a time" (i.e. 1+2+0.5=3.5), "1,260 days" and "42 months" mentioned in Daniel and Revelation to be references to represent a period of 1260 years (based on the 360 day Jewish year multiplied by 3.5).
And they way I understand it is that, this is what means...the Tribulation wil be 7 years..../GWT (Galiliean wedding thread)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Just like I thought. If Scripture cuts across your erroneous charts it is avoided and rejected. The fact that you duck every single question is testimony that it exposes your error. You cannot even address the words of Christ that show the second coming to be climatic.

You do more to promote Posttrib (by your avoidance) than I possibly can.

Absolutely. He doesn't even attempt to address your arguments, which, in my view, is an admission that he knows your arguments are correct and he has no answer for them. And he's too prideful to admit it. He cares more about showing off his erroneous charts than about the truth taught in scripture.

 

[WPM]

Ok this is from the Galiliean wedding thread (Post 1195-Pg. 60) and since it's been asked many times if I could show that the rapture is pretrib and the trib lasts for 7 years. Let's start i the book of Daniel and start from what I wrote in the other thread, and I want to clarify any thing that you may need clarified. Ask away and I'll do my best to repharse it in an effective manner.

Can you give me another example in Scripture of such a decapitation of a harmonious time-period - like where God says 7 days and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 days, or 7 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 years, or 70 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 70 years? Anything?