Spiritual Warfare

[Episkopos]

Never try to deny New Testament Salvation, with symbolic OT verses written to JEWS...

LOL. The parable I referred to (the parable of the vineyard) is not an OT symbology...but something Jesus said in the NT. In your quest to follow Paul and Pauline..you are throwing away Jesus and His words. It is the words of Jesus that bring life....not the words of Paul. Paul pointed to Christ. And all you do is point to Paul whom you don't understand at all.

I'm getting tired of correcting your non-stop incoherence and untruthful rantings.

 

[Behold]

..Maran atha is ARAMAIC

Lets show them the facts..

This is Hebrew, and its what im using..

מרן אתא
נתהלך באור

Hebrew is the language of the Hebrew bible, and Aramaic is the language of the Talmud that was often spoken by Jesus, who is a Jew.

This means that "Maranatha", is an Aramiac phrase, but in the context of Messianic Jews, its now recognized as what i posted.

 

[amigo de christo]

Its God who "imputes righteousness" as "the Gift of Righteousness".

This is why every CHRISTian, has become "MADE RIGHTEOUS".... AS : "'the Righteousness of GOD, in Christ"..

Welcome to : Salvation.
Its a "Gift".. and Eternal life is a "gift", and being "made righteous" by the "Gift of Righteousness", is a "GIFT"..

i nearly fell to the floor when i seen what epi wrote about imputing righteous .
But , you have no idea what the church is up against . INCLUSVISM is a heavy delusion my friend .
IT LOVETH to omit the BELIEVE PART . YET JESUS said that word
as did pual and others quite a bit . A fake love that is of the world has taken many captive
to a lie my friend .
Soon you gonna see for yourself what i was and have been warning about for years now .
FOLKS IS GONNA MERGE dude . they gonna eventually just wear down
and merge under this false love stuff . They gonna keep pumping tatics and junk unto all places
all sites and in time , IT WILL TAKE THEM OVER as it has many other places .
WE really should have learned the bible for ourselves . Truly we should have my friend . it brings me no joy
to have to say this , it brings tears to my eyes to say it , cause i always desired only good for the people
and not destructoin . but many gonna perish my friend . We really should return to the scriptures my friend .
And as of right now , ITS NOT TOO late to do so . Behold i am very deeply worried and troubled
by what i am seeing within the realm of even christendom .
a false love of the world is taking the world and even most of christendom captive to a lie that just cannot save them
but will end in perdition .

 

[Episkopos]

I believe we, and me too, tend to become combative in these threads. I'm trying to arrange my thinking on these threads as to be more positive, stating why I believe a certain doctrine, rather than spending time fighting those who believe differently.

Believing differently as in the difference between building a house or burning it down?

If one reads my various posts and my signature, they'd see I would be quite similar to some of the Primitive Baptists, who truly do practice "the regulative principle of worship" of the Westminster Confession, no musical instruments, no Sunday School, very plain and simple worship.

You may be getting on in years but primitive??? ;)

Yet I have spent a considerable amount of time in both conservative Anglican and Lutheran churches whose worship is liturgical. Even as a 'strict' Baptist, I felt I was among the brethren in Christ, and felt no desire to straighten them out on a proper way to worship as I understand it. In fact, I experienced a sense of dignity in those liturgical churches that is sadly missing in too many evangelical churches.

I find many in Bible study approach it cafeteria style, choosing what appeals to us, but not bothering to study and understand other verses that seem to contradict the verses we embrace. I admit I have the Orthodox Church Study Bible, the Roman Catholic Study Bible and the LCMS (Lutheran) Study Bible, and I need to do more consulting the Orthodox and Catholic Study Bibles.

Probably 95% of my study research is into the Protestant Reformation Church theology and commentaries, and possibly need to broaden my perspective. I do believe in moderation and balance both in my Christian beliefs, and my life.

OK. Whatever is required to get to you both a purity in Christ's divinity, and a maturity in Christ's humanity. :)

 

[Behold]

The parable I referred to (the parable of the vineyard) is not an OT symbology.

Let see if you can understand this.
try.

When Jesus spoke the parable of the Virgins, the Prodigal Son, and the Vineyard, there was no NT yet created.
Understand?
So, those were spoken, under the law, OT, and used in the NT.

When Jesus spoke many many verses He was talking to the "House of Israel".

The reason we use Paul as our teacher, is because Jesus chose Paul to be the "doctrine" given, to the NT Church, who are mostly Gentiles., not Jews.

So, what you do, with these type of symbolic verses, (exegesis) is that you view them all, through the Light of the Cross....through the lens of The Cross.

You read a Jesus Parable, given to JEWS.... (understand), but you dont read it as NT doctrine, because it came before the CROSS started the NT Church, so, once that happened, all previous verses , including your symbolic verse....must be viewed in Light of the CROSS which changed everything, as the Cross, began the departure from the OT, and from verses that are given to JEWS. .. in the verse.

You dont try to shove those (Pre-Crucifixion) Jewish verses, unto the NT Church, as if they are designed as doctrine for it, as they are not at all.

You could teach the Prodigal Son, as a way to understand God's Grace.

God forgives the Prodigal, God gives them the Ring and the Robe... God gives them a feast..

So, you can teach that as Father God, The Cross, Forgiveness, being made a son... and so forth., but thats not doctrine for the NT church, tho it will work, if you want to use it to teach God's Grace, for sinners.

 

[amigo de christo]

My move OK. I take your bible and I raise you an actual reading comprehension of it. Go and read that bible. :) Your move.

My move OK. I take your bible and I raise you an actual reading comprehension of it. Go and read that bible. :) Your move.

yeah but you forgot something . WHOSE version of said comprehension do ya THINK i should sit under .
DO you realize that a lot of churches were and have been long decieved
by men who thought they had the right comprehension .
SO what makes yours right .
You gonna find something out , I SURE HOPE YA do at least .
THE BIBLE aint some complicated book that in order to learn it ya got to sit under someones scholar .
THEY ALL SAY THIS .
and yet for years they all twisted stuff . Learn it for YOU epi

 

[GTW27]

I have no idea who you are? You ask questions...are you a reporter? If you more than just a poster on a forum...why hide your identity? Are you undercover at the moment? ;)

My name is Rich. Why do you say I hide my identity. Do you not know a picture can be used for the abominable things people do in secret. And they think they are hidden from the eyes of The Lord. That is why there is just a G there John. Thank you for taking the time to answer a few question? And look no ill intent. How can that be?

 

[Episkopos]

My name is Rich.

Hi Rich.

Why do you say I hide my identity. Do you not know a picture can be used for the abominable things people do in secret.

say what?

And they think they are hidden from the eyes of The Lord. That is why there is just a G there John.

OK

Thank you for taking the time to answer a few question? And look no ill intent. How can that be?

OK

 

[Episkopos]

yeah but you forgot something . WHOSE version of said comprehension do ya THINK i should sit under .

The Holy Spirit's

DO you realize that a lot of churches were and have been long decieved

Really!??? ;)

by men who thought they had the right comprehension .
SO what makes yours right .

Each person has to be convinced according to what the bible says ought to happen to those who are followers of Christ. Miraculous things.

You gonna find something out , I SURE HOPE YA do at least .
THE BIBLE aint some complicated book that in order to learn it ya got to sit under someones scholar .

right. You have need that no man teach you, for the Spirit will guide you into all truth. Exactly my position and experience. Results will vary from person to person of course.

THEY ALL SAY THIS .
and yet for years they all twisted stuff . Learn it for YOU epi

How about, I learn it for me, and you learn it for you? Sound fair?

 

[Behold]

-
To be apart from God, is to be separated from God's Holy Spirit, God's Righteousness, and God's Eternal Life.
1st Adam found this out, and so did we.
When we get this all back, its because God has dealt with all our sin on the Cross, ....so that solves the SIN issue, and then God gives us the "gift of Righteousness" which solves our Righteousness problem. = This is "the GIFT of SALVATION".

A.) A Christian, begins day one, born again, = having become.."THE "Righteousness of God'.... "made Righteous".. '"In Christ".

What is so amazing about that?, is a lot of things, and here is one.

5 Mins before, you were a life long sinner, and now through the Grace of God that is the Cross of Christ... John 14:6... you have been given "" the Gift of Salvation", and ""the Gift of Eternal life"", and The "Gift of Righteousness".. and yet, yesterday, you were a lifelong lifetime sinner.

See anything unusual? Like.......you had done nothing for God, and now you are "made Righteous".. just as Righteous as the Father of Jesus, who has given you HIS, Righteousness, as "THE GIFT of Righteousness".
You did nothing to earn it.
NOTHING.
And God said.>"will you believe in my Son", and you said....>>>"YES I DO", and God said.>>>"here is my Gift of Righteousness", and i gave it to you, just as soon as i washed all your sin away with the Blood of JESUS.".

Where are your works?
You didnt bring God a lifetime of anything, except for SIN, and now you are "made free from sin" and have become .. "THE Righteousness of GOD, in CHRIST".

Welcome to the "GIFT of Salvation" that just recreated you spiritually as a "NEW CREATION", in Christ".

So, reader, if you understand who you have become "in Christ" then dont let a deceived Heretic take this from you on this forum, and on all other "christian forums" and in many churches, and in commentaries, and online "theology sites", and on Youtube......, as they will do their BEST to ruin your faith.


Listen Saint....
= We never become more Righteous, then "God's gift of Righteousness"..... but we learn how to live in that understanding so that we produce the spiritual fruit that God's Righteousness produces : as our Discipleship.
Its your born again Spirit, that is "made righteous", and that is the REAL YOU. That is the SON/Daughter of GOD.....Not your body and not your mind.

Most Christians do not understand "righteousness" and they are like the Messiah rejecting Jews who are STILL trying to establish their own righteousness...

Reader.....
Can anything be more INSANE than someone trying to establish their OWN Righteousness, when "all have sinned and there is none righteous, no not one'???
Yet many are chasing commandments, law, and works, to try to prove to God...."Hey God, look at ALL my SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS".
And they love to post about it on Forums......

And God says...."that is filth", that is "dung"...... that is NOT MY Righteousness, that is your Self Righteousness = "Depart from me i never Knew YOU".

Reader,

Where is Righteousness found?

A.) IN CHRIST., as "one with GOD"

And all the born again are "In Christ", having become "ONE WITH GOD"....as a "new Creation IN Christ".

See it? ??

This is why the verse says.....>"AS JESUS (He) IS.......so are the born again....IN THIS WORLD"....

And HOW is Jesus? = He is RIGHTEOUSNESS......and so is the born again Spirit in every born again BELIEVER.


-God bless you to see it.

 

[APAK]

That's not how judgment works. We will be judged not for what Jesus did...but for what we did with what we have been given.

ALL outward behaviour is imputed to the person doing it. Even though, yes the saint has God working through him...the works are attributed (imputed) to the saint. The saint chooses the materials he builds with. Jesus counsels pretenders to go to Him and BUY those eternal materials. So a saint is judged by the works that were wrought THROUGH Him whether they were done with eternal things or just temporal religious ideological things.



You said it but you don't understand it. The first part of what you said is about righteousness. However, going from faith to FAITH is about going from the lower walk in obedience to the higher walk of Spirit empowerment. From our faith (in righteousness) to the faith OF Christ (in holiness with God's righteousness as a protective covering)

You are confusing the issue. Saints walk in righteousness BOTH in their own attainment of righteousness AND in the Lord's covering. If that was not the case then an evil person could also have God's righteous covering. So you are trying to eliminate the need for a broken, humble spirit...and a repentant heart...to get to your wanky theology.



That is on the level of a human obedience in righteousness....as you said THEIR righteous acts. The lower faith...the human kind. Can a human faith move mountains, do miracles, walk on water? No. But what is impossible for man is possible for God and His grace through us.

Imparted? Do you mean something learned and something adopted in character? If so...I agree. The righteousness of Christ is a learned HUMAN righteousness...the full stature of Christ as a HUMAN.

For those who think Jesus was NOT human...but only divine...go back to the bible.

Learn the difference between the human (lower walk)...and the divine (higher walk)...which comes TOGETHER IN ONE in Christ. Jesus is both God AND man. And we are called into that same sonship whereby we walk as a human but with a divine empowerment..just like Jesus. As Paul says...though we walk in the flesh, we don't walk AFTER the flesh, or according to the flesh.

Conclusion. The righteousness of saints is an attained righteousness based on obedience and growth into the full stature of Christ as a MAN.

I chimed in because of what you said in post #140 - when you said, "The saints have their own righteousness in the form of white raiment..." This is completely wrong and you must know this....

So you then understand that saints do not have their OWN righteousness even with symbolism, separate from the righteousness they are give, as a gift, and imputed to them by God as @Behold pointed out? And then you should correct what you said of course. You don't have to attach a type of neo-parable-religious connotation either as you attempted in your response. A simple yes, or no would suffice without any coded confusing text of course.

As for your over drum beaten 'lower' and 'upper/higher' walks, they as part of your personal testimony of your spiritual life, not mine or most others, and it not scriptural as I guess I've said many times.

As for me I have but one walk, one life, on Spirit within me, as I walk in my flesh, as you also do. Not by any out-of-body experience or Zen moments.....yes there are more and more times when I sense the presence of God within, it happened in greater frequency. Although this is not a different or higher walk - it's my same one walk/life. Not a double or triple life. It means I more frequently sense and recognize I'm in the presence of God, as you would say, where he or is Son is....and my frequency with/in his holiness has increased over time, as it should if one is maturing in love and peace of God through his Son.

Just wanted some more clarity, assertiveness and honesty in some of your posts.....that's it

Great Day to you. ..happy trails

 

[Episkopos]

I chimed in because of what you said in post #140 - when you said, "The saints have their own righteousness in the form of white raiment..." This is completely wrong and you must know this....

The bible portrays things as God sees them. Naturally, somebody who has a bent towards thinking that there is no such thing as a human righteousness will have no choice but to turn his understanding away from the plain text.

So you then understand that saints do not have their OWN righteousness even with symbolism, separate from the righteousness they are give, as a gift, and imputed to them by God as @Behold pointed out?

This is false. I have tried to explain certain words in English before. You can only impute TO a person something that comes FROM a person. An example is a ventriloquist. People might impute the voice to the dummy...but they are being fooled. It is the ventriloquist who is speaking. So then the truth is that we should be imputing the voice to him.

And then you should correct what you said of course. You don't have to attach a type of neo-parable-religious connotation either as you attempted in your response. A simple yes, or no would suffice without any coded confusing text of course.

As for your over drum beaten 'lower' and 'upper/higher' walks, they as part of your personal testimony of your spiritual life, not mine or most others, and it not scriptural as I guess I've said many times.

What? Nothing is MORE scriptural than having a new Testament to walk in. I think you need to discover the gospel. Jesus didn't come to sacrifice Himself so we could have the same old walk. You should look into this.

As for me I have but one walk, one life, on Spirit within me, as I walk in my flesh, as you also do.

We are one person. But Christ gives us access into a higher kingdom walk where there is no sin...IN Him is no sin. So if we sin, we KNOW we are still walking according to the flesh. If we walk according to the Spirit, then we don't fulfill the lusts of the flesh. I don't see why people have any problem with the principle, at least, of a new Covenant.

Not by any out-of-body experience or Zen moments.....yes there are more and more times when I sense the presence of God within, it happened in greater frequency. Although this is not a different or higher walk - it's my same one walk/life. Not a double or triple life. It means I more frequently sense and recognize I'm in the presence of God, as you would say, where he or is Son is....and my frequency with/in his holiness has increased over time, as it should if one is maturing in love and peace of God through his Son.

Just wanted some more clarity, assertiveness and honesty in some of your posts.....that's it

Great Day to you. ..happy trails

I agree with your ideas concerning having more blessings in the wilderness. This is good..and where I'm presently at. Being led by the Spirit. But what you are missing is what you have not yet experienced. Don't pit something that is good against what is perfect.

 

[Episkopos]

Let see if you can understand this.
try.

When Jesus spoke the parable of the Virgins, the Prodigal Son, and the Vineyard, there was no NT yet created.
Understand?
So, those were spoken, under the law, OT, and used in the NT.

When Jesus spoke many many verses He was talking to the "House of Israel".

The reason we use Paul as our teacher, is because Jesus chose Paul to be the "doctrine" given, to the NT Church, who are mostly Gentiles., not Jews.

So, what you do, with these type of symbolic verses, (exegesis) is that you view them all, through the Light of the Cross....through the lens of The Cross.

You read a Jesus Parable, given to JEWS.... (understand), but you dont read it as NT doctrine, because it came before the CROSS started the NT Church, so, once that happened, all previous verses , including your symbolic verse....must be viewed in Light of the CROSS which changed everything, as the Cross, began the departure from the OT, and from verses that are given to JEWS. .. in the verse.

You dont try to shove those (Pre-Crucifixion) Jewish verses, unto the NT Church, as if they are designed as doctrine for it, as they are not at all.

You could teach the Prodigal Son, as a way to understand God's Grace.

God forgives the Prodigal, God gives them the Ring and the Robe... God gives them a feast..

So, you can teach that as Father God, The Cross, Forgiveness, being made a son... and so forth., but thats not doctrine for the NT church, tho it will work, if you want to use it to teach God's Grace, for sinners.

Jewish verses? Look what the bible has to say about what you are doing...as you go against the words of Jesus.

If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. 1 Tim. 6:3-5

Teaching otherwise...that's what you are doing.

 

[Behold]

Jewish verses?

Jesus..

= He came to the "House of Israel"... not to the gentiles.

So, Jesus was a Jew, born under the law, and His ministry was to the JEWS, who were OT= under the law.

His Teaching, (usually)( unless its prophetic, such as you find in Matt 24),.....was all given to the JEWS......."under the Law">, as if Jesus was talking to them in Isaiah's day.

Now..........When the NT was created, long after Jesus was back in GLORY...., they put in the Gospels, and Paul's epistles, and so forth, and called it the NT.

The NT, is actually the Sacrifice and Death, and Resurrection, of Jesus, that is the New Covenant.
JESUS is the New Testament and its written in His Blood.
The word of God that is the NT, talks about this using scripture.

So, when we read in the Bible, in the NT, .. something that Jesus told to OT Jews, under the Law... that is not all of them suddenly becoming the NT CHURCH, simply because you find the verse in the New Testament.
Its Jesus the Jew, under the Law, talking to OT Jews, under the Law, ......and much of what He says to them, is not applicable to the Body of Christ that is the "Church", who are mostly Gentiles., and are "not under the Law, but under GRACE"....

Thus....The Reason that Paul told the believers, to "rightly divide the word"... is because, when we have scriptures, and some are talking to unsaved Jews, when Jesus was on the Earth.... VS.... what Paul teaches, to the Church, that Jesus gave to Paul for the BODY of CHRIST.....

See that DIVISION?

Those are not the same........so, when a person is trying to apply to the Church some Verse that is directed by Jesus the Jew, to Jews who are under Moses Law, then you end up with 45,000 Denominations worldwide, that all DISAGREE.

You also find this same confused type of person on forums and in pulpits, who thinks....>>"oh, its all bible, so its all the same...

No, ... its not.

= 45,000 Denominations world wide.

= Endless fighting on Forums.

 

[Episkopos]

Jesus..

= He came to the "House of Israel"... not to the gentiles.

So, Jesus was a Jew, born under the law, and His ministry was to the JEWS, who were OT= under the law.

His Teaching, (usually)( unless its prophetic, such as you find in Matt 24),.....was all given to the JEWS......."under the Law">, as if Jesus was talking to them in Isaiah's day.

Now..........When the NT was created, long after Jesus was back in GLORY...., they put in the Gospels, and Paul's epistles, and so forth, and called it the NT.

The NT, is actually the Sacrifice and Death, and Resurrection, of Jesus, that is the New Covenant.
JESUS is the New Testament and its written in His Blood.
The word of God that is the NT, talks about this using scripture.

So, when we read in the Bible, in the NT, .. something that Jesus told to OT Jews, under the Law... that is not all of them suddenly becoming the NT CHURCH, simply because you find the verse in the New Testament.
Its Jesus the Jew, under the Law, talking to OT Jews, under the Law, ......and much of what He says to them, is not applicable to the Body of Christ that is the "Church", who are mostly Gentiles., and are "not under the Law, but under GRACE"....

Thus....The Reason that Paul told the believers, to "rightly divide the word"... is because, when we have scriptures, and some are talking to unsaved Jews, when Jesus was on the Earth.... VS.... what Paul teaches, to the Church, that Jesus gave to Paul for the BODY of CHRIST.....

See that DIVISION?

Those are not the same........so, when a person is trying to apply to the Church some Verse that is directed by Jesus the Jew, to Jews who are under Moses Law, then you end up with 45,000 Denominations worldwide, that all DISAGREE.

You also find this same confused type of person on forums and in pulpits, who thinks....>>"oh, its all bible, so its all the same...

No, ... its not.

= 45,000 Denominations world wide.

= Endless fighting on Forums.

False. Jesus came to inaugurate a New Covenant. ALL who are of the truth hear his voice. You are out in right field.

 

[APAK]

The bible portrays things as God sees them. Naturally, somebody who has a bent towards thinking that there is no such thing as a human righteousness will have no choice but to turn his understanding away from the plain text.



This is false. I have tried to explain certain words in English before. You can only impute TO a person something that comes FROM a person. An example is a ventriloquist. People might impute the voice to the dummy...but they are being fooled. It is the ventriloquist who is speaking. So then the truth is that we should be imputing the voice to him.

What? Nothing is MORE scriptural than having a new Testament to walk in. I think you need to discover the gospel. Jesus didn't come to sacrifice Himself so we could have the same old walk. You should look into this.


We are one person. But Christ gives us access into a higher kingdom walk where there is no sin...IN Him is no sin. So if we sin, we KNOW we are still walking according to the flesh. If we walk according to the Spirit, then we don't fulfill the lusts of the flesh. I don't see why people have any problem with the principle, at least, of a new Covenant.

I agree with your ideas concerning having more blessings in the wilderness. This is good..and where I'm presently at. Being led by the Spirit. But what you are missing is what you have not yet experienced. Don't pit something that is good against what is perfect.

Your second attempt to use an analogy for saints having their own righteousness is another missed aim for your cause. It hit by target and bullseye.

It says the opposite of what you said, that the saints cannot have their own righteousness as they ARE NOT the source of IT.

Read what you wrote again. "You can only impute TO a person something that comes FROM a person. " So, this is true of course. It means what I will say once again to you......

Of course 'the original and genuine voice' is the source and that is my entire POINT, again. The saints can never bee the source of righteousness and the source of the voice of holiness and righteousness to possess their own righteousness.

And then how is your analogy related to the tea in China again?

And again, according to scripture, on the saints and their righteousness..

Saints do not have their own righteousness. Instead, their righteous acts are a result of God’s grace and power. They are imputed this gift from the voice or the source of all true holiness and righteousness, God Almighty through his Son.

In Revelation 19:8, it is written that the fine linen represents the righteous acts of the saints, but these acts are not their own righteousness. Rather, they are a result of God’s work in them.

Why cannot you understand this simple communique and meaning in scripture? You use analogies that speaks to this principle and then you say it means the opposite. You are very confusing, indeed.

Instead you have stolen the real intention of the scripture and turned it into something for yourself and for your own doctrine. Why make a twist and make it some type of elitist alien view created of scripture by your own one-sided understanding, and purpose?

Bye for now....peace and love in the Spirit, in keeping the word(s) of God; and not of men who either out of ignorance or intent, attempt to persuade others not with the real source of truth, only by the flesh and self, instead of honoring and glorifying the real voice and source, the God of all. The God of all righteousness and holiness.

 

[Lizbeth]

i nearly fell to the floor when i seen what epi wrote about imputing righteous .

Me too! He calls that the strong delusion, if we believe that God is imputing a righteousness to us that we don't possess on our own. Been over that at length on these threads......unfortunately Epi has an entirely wrong concept of what that word means and is unwilling to listen to reason. Anyone can look up the definition of that word in any number of dictionaries and also see how it is used in the bible.

 

[Episkopos]

Me too! He calls that the strong delusion, if we believe that God is imputing a righteousness to us that we don't possess on our own. Been over that at length on these threads......unfortunately Epi has an entirely wrong concept of what that word means and is unwilling to listen to reason. Anyone can look up the definition of that word in any number of dictionaries and also see how it is used in the bible.

I know what words mean. And I know what religion does to words. The modern dictionaries have a religious definition that goes contrary to the normal definition...why? Because it is a popular misconception that has become part of the culture. Like the word "bad" now means something good....in the popular culture. But we have to read the bible WITHOUT a cultural bias.

People used to think being aggravated meant being angry. But to aggravate just means to make worse. As in "the situation was aggravated by the return of the giant hogweed".

The word "impute" means to "attribute" ...like having an attribute. If a person is funny, then a good sense of humour can be imputed to that person. But someone who is NOT funny cannot be imputed with a good sense of humour.

Likewise for sinners. A sinner has to repent from sin to be righteous before God. When a sinner does that then God can impute a righteousness to him/her if He wants...if He SEES what is required. But to impute God's own righteousness??...pure fable. We impute God's righteousness to God...or not at all.

How many have turned to fables in our time?...building up imaginations and arguments that exalt themselves above the actual knowledge (knowing) of God?

 

[Episkopos]

Your second attempt to use an analogy for saints having their own righteousness is another missed aim for your cause. It hit by target and bullseye.

Paul was running a race to no longer have his own righteous covering under the law....even though he was "blameless" under the law. He forsook that to put on Christ and walk in His righteousness. Does that mean that there is no such thing as human righteousness? Of course not. Paul was ONLY after holiness. But that doesn't negate that there are righteous ones in the world that God imputes righteousness to...even as they are ungodly...unholy.

It says the opposite of what you said, that the saints cannot have their own righteousness as they ARE NOT the source of IT.

God is the source of all things. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world....not just the church and those who believe.

Read what you wrote again. "You can only impute TO a person something that comes FROM a person. " So, this is true of course. It means what I will say once again to you......

Of course 'the original and genuine voice' is the source and that is my entire POINT, again. The saints can never bee the source of righteousness and the source of the voice of holiness and righteousness to possess their own righteousness.

You are confusing a real righteousness with self-righteousness. The righteous don't consider themselves to be righteous...only the self-righteous do that. Are you righteous? Are you humble?

And then how is your analogy related to the tea in China again?

Through Pelagius and Augustine....the middlemen of the eastern trade.

 

[Episkopos]

What modern churchianity has done is refused the higher walk in holiness and rather has pushed the righteous off their righteousness to claim that level for themselves. A great evil in God's sight. As it is written...

Because with lies you have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return (repent) from his wicked way, by promising him life: Ez. 13:22