Well that's the thing. If God does exist, I can't imagine him engaging in things like genocide or feeling human emotions like anger, jealousy, etc. It's just not in line with a supreme being that knows everything.
A God of Hate
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A god with no feeling sounds like a cold, lifeless, machine to me. No God. Atheism.
Why do you think personal relationship isn’t in line with a supreme being that knows everything?
What is your hope?
I think personal relationships require two way communication. But God doesn't communicate with us. So, I don't think it's a real relationship that people are experiencing.
I don't really have any. That's the downside to not being religious. I'm open to the idea of God existing, but I find it very difficult to just accept it on faith alone.
You’re right, of course. They do.
God, I’d like to suggest to you, communicates with man every day, in many and diverse ways.
If there is no God that would certainly be true; a self-delusion. Why do you self-identify as an agnostic rather than as an atheist? I think there is something inside you that is holding you back from the precipice.
Hopelessness is devastating.
A suggestion offered for your consideration: Don’t accept it on faith alone.
Well there is a hidden story there the promised land still had the giants.No! Then read about the King of Og one of there first battles he was a giant everything in the bible describes him as giant. God did not destroy them all in the flood and is what God wanted from the Israelite to finish the Job in the promised land by eradicating them forever and all who followed them.If you want to know more then I suggest you read the Books of Enoch it will help you understand better.I suspect there are still some and they will they spawn the Antichrist with their angel blood line.
In what ways? In the Old Testament, God communicated with human beings verbally. Why is that not the case today?
Because I think the atheists, despite what they may say, don't want God to be real.
It certainly can be.
Well, that's easier said than done. There isn't a whole lot of evidence to go on. In fact, most of the evidence points to evolution. If the Genesis creation story isn't true, then why should we believe any of the other biblical stories?
In the creation (or nature, if you feel that I’m pushing unfairly in a certain direction), in the scriptures, in other human persons, in miracles, in spirit.
If it was the case today, would anyone be atheist or agnostic?
That’s a fair point. And you do want God to be real?
No hope is a dead end. It’s just passing the time listlessly, anxiously, until life comes to an end.
Faith alone = no evidence.
I think there’s more evidence to go on than you currently do but the important thing is that you believe that there is some evidence for the existence of God. If I wanted for God to be real, I would spend more time examining that evidence and searching to see if there is, or might be, more evidence than I thought that there was.
Evolution from what to what?
If the Genesis creation story isn’t true then I see no good reason to believe any of the other biblical stories. They are built on the creation story. Take away the creation story, the foundation, and the structure built on it collapses. Agnosticism, which is simply indecision, then gives way to atheism.
But if the Genesis creation story is true then why would we not believe the other biblical stories?
Yes. Audibly. (He also did so in the New Testament.) Why do you not believe that he did? Is it solely because he hasn’t done so, to the best of your knowledge, in our day?
btw, @Riven. I don’t think that I’m telling you anything that you haven’t heard before. At least not yet. What I see in your words (and words are spirit) is that you have something to work with. I’m trying to encourage you to do that, in earnest.
I don’t know anything about your background but there is a seed in you that someone planted. I’d like to see it grow and observe what it produces.
I don’t know anything about your background but there is a seed in you that someone planted. I’d like to see it grow and observe what it produces.
PS95
Well-Known Member
Get a grip. He made every person. He can give you life and he can take it away from you.
When you create a human or anything without using someting that He created you get back to me. ..
But nothing that we can test scientifically. Most of it is heresay or third person accounts of events that happened decades prior to being written down. That's the case with the gospels. So, really, it comes down to whether you believe those stories or not.
I don't think so.
Yes, I think so overall. However, there are times when I would rather he not exist. There are times when ceasing to exist after death has more of an appeal to me.
I agree.
The fact that there's something rather than nothing, is certainly a big mystery. It's probably the best evidence for God or some other outside force being in play.
From a single cell to what we are today. The thing is, if evolution is true, than how could the Genesis account also be true? It doesn't say we evolved over millions of years. It says we were created a few thousand years ago just as we are today.
I agree, but I don't think it necessarily leads to atheism. It could instead lead to deism or a rejection of the bible as the ultimate truth of the matter. But yes, I also think that Genesis has to be true in it's entirety in order for the rest of the bible to be taken seriously.
If it's true, then there is nothing inherently wrong with believing the other stories. But the stories do get more and more wild as you go along.
Science is constantly testing the creation. Science can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God.
I presume that you’re speaking about the New Testament. The New Testament isn’t based on hearsay or third person accounts of events. Careful investigation was made and people who lived the events were interviewed. The NT is reliably grounded in history.
What you’ve expressed is an echo from John: ”Therefore, many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in his name“ (John 20:30-31).
As an agnostic, you don’t disbelieve it nor do you believe it. You’re undecided about it.
If we came forward in time, say to the 18th century, in U.S. history - do you believe what is written about the events that happened? Are you unsure, for example, whether or not the Civil War happened? I don’t think so. We read eye-witness accounts, as well as second hand accounts and interpretations, and have a pretty sound understanding of what took place and are persuaded that they did.
Why is that different in your mind, if it is, than accounts of events in a particular area of the world in the 1st century?
Some people will not believe, or will not be sure, even if they hear an audible message from God. We see it in the Hebrew Bible and in the New Testament.
God speaks in Jesus of Nazareth. For anyone to be saved, they must hear Jesus teach and preach. He is speaking the words which God put in his mouth to speak. When we see and hear Jesus, we see and hear the one who sent him.
If you listen to Jesus, I think you will.
Why? (If it’s not something you’re comfortably sharing publicly then please just ignore my question.)
That will happen when you die. Then you will be resurrected to life again. What happens after that is either inheriting the life of the coming age or being destroyed in the lake of fire. There is no recovery from the lake of fire. It is the second death; ceasing to exit forever.
There is something better than that; a life of purpose and hope. It is being offered to you.
It’s really only a mystery if we don’t believe in the existence God.
Where did the single cell come from? I imagine you will say that’s a mystery, or that the single cell always existed and something happened by chance that caused it to evolve into not only us, but into everything. That takes a lot of faith to believe, doesn’t it?
There are some who try to square evolution with a creator. Perhaps you’ve read some of their thoughts on the matter. Personally, I‘m not persuaded by their arguments. I would say though, in their defense, that they haven’t given up their belief in God.
Deism posits the existence of “hands-off” God. A wind it up and see where it goes approach.
I agree with your point though that it could lead also to a rejection of the Bible while not necessarily a rejection of writings of other religions; or even a total rejection of the existence of gods. Atheism, I think, is the most likely consequence of rejecting Genesis, but it’s not the only option.
That’s an interesting observation. I don’t see them as getting wilder as we read through the Bible. That, I suppose, is a difference between an agnostic and a believer.
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Yes, I think that's fair.
Yes, the gospels. Who wrote them? Based on what I've read, most of them, if not all of them, were written decades after the crucifixion of Christ by anonymous writers. So, how do we verify what is being said is true or not?
Because the events that occurred during the civil war were not supernatural in nature. Historians that write about the 18th century today have a treasure trove of knowledge of that time period that is preserved in the archives.
Events that occurred in the first century, on the other side of the world no less, that include a flurry of supernatural claims, require some very substantial evidence. We also have to keep in mind that the men and women living in the first century were primitive compared to even those living in the 18th century. It is not unreasonable to take their words about almost everything being the result of supernatural intervention with a grain of salt.
For example, if someone back then was suffering with epilepsy, the people at the time would have assumed that this person was afflicted by demons, and that these entities needed to be purged by a shaman or something to that effect.
Perhaps. In isolation, they might assume they're schizophrenic or something. But if everyone else also hears the voice, I think they would connect the dots pretty quickly.
Oh, no. I don't mind sharing. It's primarily because I feel that if you go through all the trials and tribulations of life, you should at least be able to rest easy after you die. What's better than oblivion? It may not be heaven, but at least you get to rest peacefully and you don't have to deal with anything else.
And also... It's the one thing the world can't take from you. Regardless of what you through in this life, everything will be taken from you upon death, but you will also have the guarantee of any eternal rest.
I was told by many Christians that upon death, one either immediately goes to heaven or hell. Are you saying this is not so?
I understand that. I'm not rejecting it, I want that to be clear. But I can't force myself to believe it either. I would be living a lie and I don't want to do that.
Touche. XD
Yes, I think it does. But evolution isn't about where the cell came from. It's about how it changed over time. Science can't currently offer a satisfying explanation for the origin of the cell or why there's something rather than nothing.
I'm not persuaded either. I think when you get to the point of, as a Christian, minimizing just about everything in the bible to being little more than metaphor, it calls into question why anyone should even bother with it over a science textbook.
It seems likely, does it not? I mean, given what we experience today with God being like an absentee father figure.
The story of Noah's Ark? Jonah and the whale? Adam's descendants supposedly living to be almost 1,000 years old? By the way, all of the physical evidence points to humans living shorter lives in the past as opposed to longer lives as stated in the bible.
They aren’t works of fiction. The Apostles and other early Christians died for holding fast to what is written in them.
Extinction doesn’t sound like a reward to me.
Yes.
He isn’t absent in my life. I speak with him daily.
BlessedPeace
Well-Known Member
People can't die for a work of fiction that they believe is true?
Fair enough.
But does he speak back? At the end of the day, if it's just you talking, how do you know you're not just talking to yourself?
I think you’re referring to Ecclesiastes 12:7. If not, please let me know.
”and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the life’s breath returns to God who gave it.”
(Ecclesiastes 12:7, NET)
The life’s breath of man - the good and the wicked alike - return to the creator. It is the reversal of the creation; the undoing of man.
It is restored to every man when bodily resurrected.
@Riven
Would you?
The Apostles lived the story and wrote letters to others. They died for what they new was a real historical event, not a fiction story they created in their minds. Some of the earliest Christians saw exactly what the Apostles themselves saw, and willing died for the truth. Others didn’t see what the Apostles saw but believed what they read and followed their example.
Would you die for a work of fiction that you believed to true? (At best, fiction is a mix of truth and fantasy.) Would you die for a work of fiction which you knew to be false? Would you die for something that you lived, experienced and knew without a doubt was true?
Yes. Words are spirit. He speaks to me in spirit. Normally, that’s when I’m reading what he says in scripture.
It’s not just me talking.
BlessedPeace
Well-Known Member
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