Spiritual Warfare

[amadeus]

Thank you Amadeus! :) Your kind words are a balm at such a place and time. Peace to you! <><

And peace to you my friend! May God richly bless you as you continue in His ministry.

 

[Episkopos]

I've allowed the enemy to use my words a few times on here and regretted it.

I want to look up to you and others here. You have more experience. I agree with a lot of what you say. I thought a lot about things youve said. I just can't get away from thinking patience and meek conduct is a standard for us all, even if our unique calling is leadership and exhortation. The lack of patience you recieve on here doesn't justify yours. The bar is higher for believers just like you said.

If I thought you were an enemy or a fool, I wouldn't say anything. I consider you neither, whether you agree with this or not.

I agree with you in principle. But where there is no level playing field...it becomes a fools paradise. There is a time and place for everything. I mainly avoid the silliness. But one must answer sometimes to expose what's going on. I have to call out for some honesty. Why? To bring attention to the obfuscation for anyone who is visiting the thread and wondering at it?

In a heated debate what is needed is a moderator that asks the questions and steers the conversation. Otherwise the silent one just appears to be not able to defend his position.

I lay back a LOT. ;)

I try to stay on topic, but when people are here with no other agenda other than just to twist words and meanings and attack in general, the lack of moderation becomes telling.

A moderator needs to be neutral and interested in the subject enough to pry answers and honesty out of the different participants. I think a moderator is needful to get some kind of conclusion. Like in the meetings...a moderator is an overseer that allows for honest appraisals, honest questions, and honest answers.

My experience in MANY home meetings, is that a lack of a moderator (overseer) leads the ill-intentioned to take over. God is a God of order not chaos. I've seen free-for-all home meetings causing a certain brother I knew to actually leave the faith...such was his disgust at finally being exposed to other believers. And this is one of the things that convinced me that a fellowship ALWAYS needs a moderator...not a pastor (that's Jesus) :)

 

[amadeus]

...a fellowship ALWAYS needs a moderator...not a pastor (that's Jesus) :)

Amen!

 

[Wynona]

I lay back a LOT. ;)

I try to stay on topic, but when people are here with no other agenda other than just to twist words and meanings and attack in general, the lack of moderation becomes telling.

I'm sincerely glad you hold back. My thinking is that self-moderation by as many parties as possible is what makes good discussion possible because we can only control ourselves, not others.

The more individuals hold themselves to Christ's standard first, examining the flaws of others second---the less need for a neutral third party. I hate the idea of some outside punishment or even a neutral mod being the only thing keeping a topic together.

It has to be that way because of human nature but it's not the ideal for believers.

 

[Episkopos]

I'm sincerely glad you hold back. My thinking is that self-moderation by as many parties as possible is what makes good discussion possible because we can only control ourselves, not others.

We have to keep in mind that there are spiritual forces at work...even if people don't understand that they can be a platform for that kind of activity.

The more individuals hold themselves to Christ's standard first, examining the flaws of others second---the less need for a neutral third party. I hate the idea of some outside punishment or even a neutral mod being the only thing keeping a topic together.

I agree. This is not a church meeting, and we are not looking at the truth on the threads...but free expression. And I accept the aspect of freedom in the artificial on-line community. The truth I think will be exposed at times and some will recognize that and be edified. And all of this is under the radar. Which is the way truth is imparted...in adversity. I have many stories about this. :)

It has to be that way because of human nature but it's not the ideal for believers.

But believers are humans...and a free speech forum attracts a lot of different minded people. Why do you think there is so much control over people in the institutional churches? I disagree with the control....but one needs to know who is leading even if that person is just mainly quiet. An unlocked bike just invites people to steal it. The temptation is just too much for some. Just being a believer does not guarantee a proper understanding....or a proper attitude. I think the chaos exhibited in so many threads is testimony of this.

 

[GracePeace]

What kind of people seek to diminish or destroy the higher walk that is IN Christ? These people will seek to overturn the bible to have Paul speaking to dead people about dead people and wanting to be a dead person himself. Either that or they would have to admit that there is a kingdom of God realm that we are being called into....before we physically die.

Can a dead religion deviate many from the path of life? It's already happening...

It's obvious that it is right that you say Christians can be carnal or spiritual (Paul talks about that in 1 Corinthians), and I am not in a position to "correct" others, but I wouldn't want to leave you saying slightly inaccurate (not necessarily destructive) things (if they really are inaccurate), but would you consider if whether "the spirits of the just made perfect" refers to those it had just spoken about?

Hebrews 11
3By faith we understand that the [d]world has been created by the word of God so that what is seen has not been made out of things that are visible.
...
39And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive [aa]what was promised, 40because God had [ab]provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

 

[Wynona]

But believers are humans...and a free speech forum attracts a lot of different minded people. Just being a believer does not guarantee a proper understanding....or a proper attitude. I think the chaos exhibited in so many threads is testimony of this.

I still feel disillusioned and sad about that fact. A me-issue for sure but the one drawback of staying in Scripture is how idealistic it can make you.

My ideal is that at least a handful on here would be able to bless those who curse them and do good to their enemies. Ive only seen one member on here do it consistently and I believe his doctrine is wrong.

It's a selfish wish, imposing my wants on a forum like this. I don't want to truly believe that imitating Christ as much as you can will make you alone. My wishful thought is that others will join me and cheer me on. That older ones will smile and encourage you to surpass them like my mother did.

It's a problem, dealing with frustration when people don't even try, as you can attest to. I still don't want to give in to that frustration. Not if it keeps me from maturing.

My personal reason for aiming this at you is that I think focusing too much on your opponents flaws takes away from you as a whole. I like when you said the topic alone should be debated. But when your opponents go off topic, Ive seen you go off topic with them but accuse them of being the only instigators. Others do this too but it's my biggest pet peeve on this site.

 

[Episkopos]

It's obvious that it is right that you say Christians can be carnal or spiritual (Paul talks about that in 1 Corinthians), and I am not in a position to "correct" others, but I wouldn't want to leave you saying slightly inaccurate (not necessarily destructive) things (if they really are inaccurate), but would you consider if whether "the spirits of the just made perfect" refers to those it had just spoken about?

Hebrews 11
3By faith we understand that the [d]world has been created by the word of God so that what is seen has not been made out of things that are visible.
...
39And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive [aa]what was promised, 40because God had [ab]provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

Good question! When Jesus says to be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect..is that speaking to the dead? God is certainly not dead?

But God is in another realm. God is Spirit. And we are born in the Spirit to have fellowship with God who is both Spirit and in the Spirit. So then the perfect are those who are in communion with God.

Now the OT saints did NOT walk in resurrection life. The standard of righteousness in the OT was based on the law...imperfect as that is. But the law revealed the ATTITUDE of the saint...humble, broken, surrendered, God-fearing.

As to your verse...and your good question...

So without us...who have been called to be saints like they were (albeit at a higher level of walk because of resurrection life) their number would not be COMPLETE. The word used for "perfect" can mean a character completeness...a spiritual fulfillment....or a certain number that fills the requirement. So in your verse we are being waited upon by the OT saints to complete their number.

:)

 

[GracePeace]

Good question! When Jesus says to be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect..is that speaking to the dead? God is certainly not dead?

But God is in another realm. God is Spirit. And we are born in the Spirit to have fellowship with God who is both Spirit and in the Spirit. So then the perfect are those who are in communion with God.

Now the OT saints did NOT walk in resurrection life. The standard of righteousness in the OT was based on the law...imperfect as that is. But the law revealed the ATTITUDE of the saint...humble, broken, surrendered, God-fearing.

As to your verse...and your good question...

So without us...who have been called to be saints like they were (albeit at a higher level of walk because of resurrection life) their number would not be COMPLETE. The word used for "perfect" can mean a character completeness...a spiritual fulfillment....or a certain number that fills the requirement. So in your verse we are being waited upon by the OT saints to complete their number.

:)

And you wouldn't suspect that the word "perfected" refers to the way it is used elsewhere in Hebrews--ie, they were just, but were only perfected by the blood of the New Covenant, the blood of the Lamb, which had, back then (when Hebrews had been written), "just now" ("without us") been shed?

 

[Episkopos]

I still feel disillusioned and sad about that fact. A me-issue for sure but the one drawback of staying in Scripture is how idealistic it can make you.

True. People live with control. Many who are unsupervised at work will just goof around...they need a strong hand keeping them honest. And in society we have police. The fear of jail keeps many in line.

I love freedom...but not a freedom to do as I want...but a freedom to do as I am constrained to do by both the Lord and my inner conscience. But it can take a LOT of self-control to use freedom is a positive way. Do we redeem the time for the Lord....always?

My ideal is that at least a handful on here would be able to bless those who curse them and do good to their enemies. Ive only seen one member on here do it consistently and I believe his doctrine is wrong.

There you go. Universalists are wrong, but often seem kinder because they only see the love aspect of the truth. But if you read about Jesus' encounters with religious people, He could get quite harsh. Why? To warn others against doing the same thing and being eternally condemned. So then God trains us HARD, He beats those whom He loves.

Paul exhorts Timothy to teach, correct and rebuke. Rebuke? Can a meek person rebuke? Of course!

It's a selfish wish, imposing my wants on a forum like this. I don't want to truly believe that imitating Christ as much as you can will make you alone.

Well, God isolates us to teach us deeper things. And the narrower the walk the fewer people you encounter.

My wishful thought is that others will join me and cheer me on. That older ones will smile and encourage you to surpass them like my mother did.

It's a problem, dealing with frustration when people don't even try, as you can attest to. I still don't want to give in to that frustration. Not if it keeps me from maturing.

I think you have to expect that people will NOT gravitate to the truth. Some question for a time...and many never stop questioning.

My personal reason for aiming this at you is that I think focusing too much on your opponents flaws takes away from you as a whole. I like when you said the topic alone should be debated. But when your opponents go off topic, Ive seen you go off topic with them but accuse them of being the only instigators. Others do this too but it's my biggest pet peeve on this site.

Sure. But I'm trying to save them. I try different approaches...humour, subtleties, agreement (where I can), correction and rebuke. etc I've been doing this a long time...exposing the truth and looking for a way into the inner man of a person. If I get continually attacked by a person's outer man....I will point it out...to help them and encourage them to overcome, have faith and surrender themselves to the cross.

Not to win an argument...but to save a person from a bad ending. I can't say more than that! :)

 

[Wynona]

True. People live with control. Many who are unsupervised at work will just goof around...they need a strong hand keeping them honest. And in society we have police. The fear of jail keeps many in line.

I love freedom...but not a freedom to do as I want...but a freedom to do as I am constrained to do by both the Lord and my inner conscience. But it can take a LOT of self-control to use freedom is a positive way. Do we redeem the time for the Lord....always?


There you go. Universalists are wrong, but often seem kinder because they only see the love aspect of the truth. But if you read about Jesus' encounters with religious people, He could get quite harsh. Why? To warn others against doing the same thing and being eternally condemned. So then God trains us HARD, He beats those whom He loves.

Paul exhorts Timothy to teach, correct and rebuke. Rebuke? Can a meek person rebuke? Of course!


Well, God isolates us to teach us deeper things. And the narrower the walk the fewer people you encounter.


I think you have to expect that people will NOT gravitate the truth. Some question for a time...and many never stop questioning.

Sure. But I'm trying to save them. I try different approaches...humour, subtleties, agreement (where I can), correction and rebuke. etc I've been doing this a long time...exposing the truth and looking for a way into the inner man of a person. If I get continually attacked by a person's outer man....I will point it out...to help them and encourage them to overcome, have faith and surrender themselves to the cross.

Not to win an argument...but to save a person from a bad ending. I can't say more than that! :)

Thanks for your consideration. Blessings!

 

[GracePeace]

Good question! When Jesus says to be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect..is that speaking to the dead? God is certainly not dead?

But God is in another realm. God is Spirit. And we are born in the Spirit to have fellowship with God who is both Spirit and in the Spirit. So then the perfect are those who are in communion with God.

Now the OT saints did NOT walk in resurrection life. The standard of righteousness in the OT was based on the law...imperfect as that is. But the law revealed the ATTITUDE of the saint...humble, broken, surrendered, God-fearing.

As to your verse...and your good question...

So without us...who have been called to be saints like they were (albeit at a higher level of walk because of resurrection life) their number would not be COMPLETE. The word used for "perfect" can mean a character completeness...a spiritual fulfillment....or a certain number that fills the requirement. So in your verse we are being waited upon by the OT saints to complete their number.

:)

And you wouldn't suspect that the word "perfected" refers to the way it is used elsewhere in Hebrews--ie, they were just, but were only perfected by the blood of the New Covenant, the blood of the Lamb, which had, back then (when Hebrews had been written), "just now" ("without us") been shed?

Especially because it was their spirits that were "made perfect"... not their number... plus, their number wasn't "completed" by the addition of the believers back then, because many tens of millions would come later (including believers today).

Anyway, thanks for giving the observation an ear.

 

[Episkopos]

Especially because it was their spirits that were made perfect... not their number... plus, their number wasn't "completed" by the addition of the believers back then, because many tens of millions would come later (including believers today).

WE, as a group are not "Perfected" in number until the very end when the Lord says.."enough"! That's when the "magic" number will have been reached. IS that number 144,000 saints? We don't know these things. God has a number. And that number is the Bride of Christ being perfected in number and made perfect in character. :)

 

[GracePeace]

WE, as a group are not "Perfected" in number until the very end when the Lord says.."enough"! That's when the "magic" number will have been reached. IS that number 144,000 saints? We don't know these things. God has a number. And that number is the Bride of Christ being perfected in number and made perfect in character. :)

Nice interacting.

 

[Episkopos]

Especially because it was their spirits that were "made perfect"... not their number... plus, their number wasn't "completed" by the addition of the believers back then, because many tens of millions would come later (including believers today).

Anyway, thanks for giving the observation an ear.

I think that's why the writer of Hebrews says...the spirits of just men made perfect....to show that this is a holiness issue and not dealing with numbers.

 

[GracePeace]

I think that's why the writer of Hebrews says...the spirits of just men made perfect....to show that this is a holiness issue and not dealing with numbers.

So I guess we were already in agreement, and I misunderstood your position.

I also see it as a shift in the standing of the men of the past (together with those of the present partakers of the New Covenant) from merely just to perfect.

 

[Behold]

I try to stay on topic, but when people are here with no other agenda other than just to twist words and meanings and attack in general, the lack of moderation becomes telling.

You're were the very first one on this Thread, today, to infer that someone is "dishonest", and "ignorant" in your same post..... and now you want to wine about "lack of moderation", on your behalf?.

 

[GracePeace]

I try to stay on topic, but when people are here with no other agenda other than just to twist words and meanings and attack in general, the lack of moderation becomes telling.

Though things have improved, since I've been working at it for a long time, I find it nearly impossible to keep things on topic in my threads for extended periods of time. People just itch to derail the conversation, scrawl their irrelevant religious graffiti on my threads.

 

[Episkopos]

So I guess we were already in agreement, and I misunderstood your position.

I also see it as a shift in the standing of the men of the past (together with those of the present partakers of the New Covenant) from merely just to perfect.

WOW. You got it. From righteousness into holiness. The OT standard is righteousness and the NT standard is holiness(IN God's righteousness)

The OT saints walked in the "lower walk" of righteousness but with the ATTITUDE of a saint. We learn the right attitude from them although we can walk at a level that was only in prophecies.

 

[GracePeace]

WOW. You got it. From righteousness into holiness. The OT standard is righteousness and the NT standard is holiness(IN God's righteousness)

The OT saints walked in the "lower walk" of righteousness but with the ATTITUDE of a saint. We learn the right attitude from them although we can walk at a level that was only in prophecies.

I don't claim to understand their walk--I'm too concerned about my own realities, and haven't looked into it, and admit it is puzzling to me--but it is good to see we're reading the words similarly, as just what they are, as just the plain on-its-face reality.