The social gospel?

[Lizbeth]

LOL I think you are right about being insufferable...as you display yourself. Look at how you not only twist my words...but then say the same thing to justify your own errant views. Without any honesty at all.

A two-sided coin? A gospel with two sides? A law with two levels? Exactly what I teach...as the bible teaches...which you can't hear or read.

There is ONE GOSPEL...on 2 levels. There is ONE TORAH with 2 main commandments on 2 TABLETS...a DOUBLE EDGED SWORD. etc. All you need to do is be able to count to two. Two in one. One in two.

Can you understand that? Can you do this? I don't see that you can.

The ignorance you display is astounding. ...and can only be attributed to an unwillingness to hear the truth.

But I know you are just playing a role in this forum...with a false name of course. :)

I was talking about election, but if you want to apply the analogy of a two-sided coin to the gospel, then unfortunately you are missing "the coin". Hmm, maybe we could say dividing the baby in half...? There is to be no schism in the Body.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Don't put words in my mouth EG.
I never called you a Calvinist.
I said you were expousing calvinist theology.

There's a difference.
I know you're not a calvinist.

So don't speak like one?!

When we can not differentiate between Simone saying you espouse Calvinism and you are essentially a Calvinist. There is something wrong

I espouse the word of God and a at theology. Which was around centuries before Calvin Luther Arminius and others were even thought of. That’s why I espouse we stick to that and not name calling

That’s why we can never hear what others believe. We look through the lens of the people we follow.

I pray we all can do this and stop looking at everyone and trying to put them in some doctrinal view.

 

[Episkopos]

I was talking about election,

which is NOT the gospel.

but if you want to apply the analogy of a two-sided coin to the gospel, then unfortunately you are missing "the coin".

You are definitely not like the lady who rejoiced at finding the lost coin

Hmm, maybe we could say dividing the baby in half...?

You would have to admit, in the analogy, that the baby is not yours.

There is to be no schism in the Body.

There is in the carnal representation...just not in the spiritual brotherhood. Jesus came to bring a sword and fire.

 

[GodsGrace]

which is NOT the gospel.



You are definitely not like the lady who rejoiced at finding the lost coin


You would have to admit, in the analogy, that the baby is not yours.

There is in the carnal representation...just not in the spiritual brotherhood. Jesus came to bring a sword and fire.

A sword and fire.
Right.
But to divide believers and non-believers....
NOT to divide Christian brethren!

However, I'm not really following along so pay no attention to me....

 

[Episkopos]

A sword and fire.
Right.
But to divide believers and non-believers....
NOT to divide Christian brethren!

The first cut..yes. But those who persecute the saints ARE the religious ones. So the mob in the church persecutes the servants of God WITHIN the church. It has always been this way. There is war with the outside...but Jesus was crucified by His own people.

However, I'm not really following along so pay no attention to me....

But you had a good comment. :)

 

[GodsGrace]

The first cut..yes. But those who persecute the saints ARE the religious ones. So the mob in the church persecutes the servants of God WITHIN the church. It has always been this way. There is war with the outside...but Jesus was crucified by His own people.

But you had a good comment. :)

Who's persecuting the saints?
Who are the religious ones?
Who is the mob that persecutes the servants of God within the church?
I think you mean Church (the Body of Christ), not church (the institution).

 

[Episkopos]

Who's persecuting the saints?
Who are the religious ones?
Who is the mob that persecutes the servants of God within the church?
I think you mean Church (the Body of Christ), not church (the institution).

This is a difficult line of questioning. It's hard to know who has been planted by the enemy....tares among the wheat...and those who are just deceived and immature. I struggle with that as it can be very hard to tell. I expose a LOT of error here. But I can't explore the end of it without being in person. People can write things with different intents.

The institutions are very mixed. And where do you draw the line for the Body of Christ.

I have a fellow disciple friend who believes ONLY in very small gathering...like 2 or 3. Like Jesus said.. That friend says that once the numbers go up the life goes down, the genuineness gets diluted.

I see his point of course. My understanding is that we can meet as a fellowship without expecting the deeper fellowship of the Spirit. Putting a focus on the lower walk of righteousness and teaching about the higher walk. Although I do see the church as a spiritual fellowship. But there are so FEW saints, that one has to be connected to people around the world to make up enough to call it a spiritual fellowship.

So I make a distinction between a fellowship (like a school where people learn) and a church where people move by the Spirit...as we read in the bible.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is a difficult line of questioning. It's hard to know who has been planted by the enemy....tares among the wheat...and those who are just deceived and immature. I struggle with that as it can be very hard to tell. I expose a LOT of error here. But I can't explore the end of it without being in person. People can write things with different intents.

I don't know your beliefs so it's difficult to say if, maybe, you believe those that do not agree with you are seen by you as the tares.
I tend to give persons the benefit of the doubt and think they're just immature or don't understand scripture, for whatever reason, and there could be at least 3 that I could think of offhand.

I also find that many times our language gets in the way and we don't really know the intent of the other person.
Sometimes we say the same idea but use different words and find out posts later.

The institutions are very mixed. And where do you draw the line for the Body of Christ.

I believe we all understand the Body of Christ to be the same....
It's the world-wide Kingdom of God here on earth to which believers belong.
Some may even have doctrine incorrect....but I'm not one to believe that our doctrine saves us...
although we may debate about it on these forums.

I have a fellow disciple friend who believes ONLY in very small gathering...like 2 or 3. Like Jesus said.. That friend says that once the numbers go up the life goes down, the genuineness gets diluted.

This is nice, but after a few gatherings everything just becomes repetitious and who does the teaching?
I like bigger groups for church/worship, and smaller groups 10-20 for bible study. 20 is almost too many.
Small groups allow for questions and discussion....which is why most go to bible study.
In one denomination I've attended, the pastor did bible study on Wed evening.
The entire church was there....I didn't really enjoy it.

I see his point of course. My understanding is that we can meet as a fellowship without expecting the deeper fellowship of the Spirit. Putting a focus on the lower walk of righteousness and teaching about the higher walk. Although I do see the church as a spiritual fellowship. But there are so FEW saints, that one has to be connected to people around the world to make up enough to call it a spiritual fellowship.

Agreed.

So I make a distinction between a fellowship (like a school where people learn) and a church where people move by the Spirit...as we read in the bible.

To me a fellowship is just Christians gathering to talk and spend time together and maybe do some activity, or not --
I'm going to a Catholic church right now so posting here is good for me.
I like the CC but it has some incorrect teachings, but is there a perfect one? I don't think so.
Too many Protestants just hate that church without even really understanding what it teaches...
but whatever.
I like all believers ---

 

[Lizbeth]

This is a difficult line of questioning. It's hard to know who has been planted by the enemy....tares among the wheat...and those who are just deceived and immature. I struggle with that as it can be very hard to tell. I expose a LOT of error here. But I can't explore the end of it without being in person. People can write things with different intents.

The institutions are very mixed. And where do you draw the line for the Body of Christ.

I have a fellow disciple friend who believes ONLY in very small gathering...like 2 or 3. Like Jesus said.. That friend says that once the numbers go up the life goes down, the genuineness gets diluted.

I see his point of course. My understanding is that we can meet as a fellowship without expecting the deeper fellowship of the Spirit. Putting a focus on the lower walk of righteousness and teaching about the higher walk. Although I do see the church as a spiritual fellowship. But there are so FEW saints, that one has to be connected to people around the world to make up enough to call it a spiritual fellowship.

So I make a distinction between a fellowship (like a school where people learn) and a church where people move by the Spirit...as we read in the bible.

Says someone who isn't even a saint by his own definition. But you'd love that wouldn't you....your own cult fellowship of elite saints. Here you have exposed your spiritual elitism for all to see. There is to be no schism in the Body of our Lord......but you need ears to hear that. Haven't you read that even the less comely parts are needed and that we are to bear with the weak....and consider others more highly than ourselves? And such things as "If you think you stand take heed lest you fall". What kind of Christian "teacher" or "holy man" is it who doesn't understand these things? Oh dear....wow. Pride goeth before a fall......or did you fall already?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Says someone who isn't even a saint by his own definition. But you'd love that wouldn't you....your own cult fellowship of elite saints. Here you have exposed your spiritual elitism for all to see. There is to be no schism in the Body of our Lord......but you need ears to hear that. Haven't you read that even the less comely parts are needed and that we are to bear with the weak....and consider others more highly than ourselves? And such things as "If you think you stand take heed lest you fall". What kind of Christian "teacher" or "holy man" is it who doesn't understand these things? Oh dear....wow. Pride goeth before a fall......or did you fall already?

Have to stand before you can fall. Lol

 

[Episkopos]

Says someone who isn't even a saint by his own definition. But you'd love that wouldn't you....your own cult fellowship of elite saints. Here you have exposed your spiritual elitism for all to see. There is to be no schism in the Body of our Lord......but you need ears to hear that. Haven't you read that even the less comely parts are needed and that we are to bear with the weak....and consider others more highly than ourselves? And such things as "If you think you stand take heed lest you fall". What kind of Christian "teacher" or "holy man" is it who doesn't understand these things? Oh dear....wow. Pride goeth before a fall......or did you fall already?

Where does unkindness lead...do you think?

A "mob" mentality, perhaps?

 

[Christian Soldier]

You have not understood anything I said. And your comments are like a dog chasing its own tail Why didn't you mention Pelagius or global warming?

And you seem obsessed with your own lack of relationship with God. The "ordinary folk" obey God as they can...through hospitality, kindness, service, mercy, selfless acts....etc. God accepts those who do righteousness and fear Him.



You just contradicted yourself as you chased your tail one more time. And neither statement is true.

I don't think you know what you are talking about...just letting off a little steam it seems.



This is easily refuted as you have ignored my correction...which is normal for those who are unable to pay attention.



Ah...that is your true stance...agnosticism.


This is itself a lie from the nether regions. Your formula is just unbelief.



You have misunderstood the bible. There is one gospel but two standards. Just like there is One Spirit in two Persons for God.


The standard for the common man is to love others as himself...James calls this the royal law. That is the standard of judgment for the world.


That is another lie. No one is as righteous as God or His Son. I could explain the higher righteousness to you, but you can't pay that much attention.

I prefer you go and learn something that has some value rather than commenting without knowledge. You need to take it step by step. Learn the basics first.

I understood everything you stated, but sadly none of it is supported by Gods Word. You just expressed you private opinion, and I'm no respecter of private opinions, as everyone has their own. So nobody is looking for private opinions, I'm really interested in what God has said, I know the God wrote the Bible inn such a way that only His elect would understand it and the rest would remain blind and confused.

God doesn't accept the good works of ordinary folks, unless they are born again and indwelt by the Holy Spirit. God only accepts His own works and rejects mans best works as filthy rags. you seem to have missed that elephant in the room in your analogy.

You have refuted nothing and you have corrected nothing I said, i don't accept your private judgement as correction. God is the only One who has the authority to judge and correct. So if you can't correct me with scripture then your correction is null and void.

You should know that the commandments were given to demonstrate that man is felled and total depraved and dead in trespasses and sin. As such it's impossible for man to keep and commandment from God. Man is born into slavery to Satan, so he can't obey two masters unless God liberates him from bondage to sin and Satan. So it foolish to suggest that man has some ability to keep any commandment, God keeps the commandments through His Hoy Spirit in the born again believers, so it's not of man at all.

I would strongly suggest you find a faithful Shepherd, who can teach you correct theology so you don't continue to stumble around in blindness.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Just ignore the man behind the curtain blowing smoke with an insufferable attitude. Amen, there is only one gospel, and Epi compartmentalizes things.

But I suspect we do similar in trying to understand election......maybe we need to think in terms of a two sided coin in a way. Just want to point out this verse:

Act 17:26-27

And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us

I believe God answers a heart that is seeking Him, feeling after Him......"Seek and you will find...."

The bible also mentions in Romans 1 that what may be known of God is seen in creation so that men are without excuse.

God made it perfectly clear that He doesn't want any man to know why He elected some onto salvation and left the rest in their sin. Election is Gods private business, if He wanted us to know how or why Hew Chose some He would have told us. Many struggle needlessly, trying to figure out why God hates some before they're even born. As in the case of "Esau have I hated" He said this before Esau was in his mother womb and lets not forget the estimated 2 billion men women children and unborn babies God killed with the flood.

God said He created some as vessels of honor and others to dishonor, the only hint God gave us regarding this harsh doctrine is, He created the wicked to show off His righteousness by punishing them in hell. We wouldn't know about Gods love, mercy and wrath, if didn't demonstrate His hatred of sin by punishing the evil doers. And we wouldn't know about Gods love without being forgiven and blessed with eternal paradise in heaven.

God commanded Pharaoh to let His people go, while hardening Pharaoh's at the same time to prevent him from releasing the people. Some would see this as unfairness on Gods part but we know everything God does is perfect and just. God did that so He can show of His Sovereign Power over the Kings of the earth.

We just have to trust that God is in full control over everything, including who is saved and who is left in their sin. I asked my pastor, how will I be happy in heaven if some of my family members are in hell. His answer was, that God would give me a new sinless mind and then I would see sin the same way He sees it and I would agree that God is perfectly just in everything He does.
It's not possible for us to understand Gods ways, while we are in this body of corruption and death. We still retain some of the old nature, with it's lusts and it does cries out to be fed.

 

[Christian Soldier]

They were dead

If they were not dead they had no separation and would not need to Come they already arrived.

But it is obvious you are stuck and nothing will change. I will Leave you be and continue to laugh as you call me an Arminian and @GodsGrace calls me a calvinist

Maybe you two Can argue since you speak each others language and the rest of us can have some meaningful conversation not calling other people things they are not because they actually listen to them even when they disagree

So your reject what God has said, so you can promote your false doctrine. You probably won't be able receive what Gods Word says in the verses below as they expose your false narrative, but try to look at them anyway.

Eph. 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), The verse says they were DEAD and God made them alive so they were saved. So your theory that dead men can chose God is false because dead men hate God.

 

[Christian Soldier]

I think we are better off going to the gospels and reading through the nt

Paul tells us not to be followers if
Men. Sadly as we see we have alot of men followers her (Calvin,Arminian,the pope etc etc)

Let the reader see.

Ok, now I see your issue. God has appointed Shepherds to lead and watch over His Sheep, but you reject Gods ways and go off on your own as a rouge sheep. Gods Word says that rouge sheep are a tasty meal for the hungry Lion, who roams around looking for rebellious rouge sheep.

I suspect you don't belong to the body of Christ by what you say, if your not a member of a local body of believers (Church) then your still outside of Christ. God gave us leaders and teachers because we are just Sheep, Sheep are quite dumb and venerable so we do need someone to protect us and teach us how to live.

If you think that a Sheep can simply read the Gospel and fluke the right interpretation, without relevant qualifications, then you believe that a street sweeper can perform brain surgery successfully. You have turned your back on the worlds greatest theologians and Bible scholars, and appointed yourself as the greatest of all. This is what every cult leader and self deluded expert does.

 

[GodsGrace]

They both obviously do have some aspects of the truth, but the bible says "a little yeast effects the whole lump of bread dough". Likewise mixing the truth with lies spoils the whole message.

Jacob Arminius and John Calvin had fundamentally different interpretation's of the gospel. Thy disagreed on the core principals, so their views are irreconcilable. This led to the Church dividing into 40,000 Denominations, the Church is still divided over those core issues to this day.

1. Calvin believed that man is born totally depraved and spiritually dead. as such he can't respond to spiritual things as he has no concept of them. They are foolishness to him.
Arminius believed that man's nature was affected by the fall but he did not fully die (spiritually). He believes that man retained the ability to understand spiritual things and choose to believe the gospel.

2. Calvin believed that God choose certain individuals for salvation before the foundation of the world, His choice was not based on any foreseen obedience or response to the gospel such as faith, repentance etc. God chose to give faith and repentance to certain individuals according to His sovereign, will.
Aminius believed that God looked into the future and saw who would respond to the gospel with faith and repentance, so He elected them before the foundations of the world.

3. Calvin believed that Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only, and His death actually secured salvation for all of them.
Arminius believed that Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved, but it didn't actually secure salvation for anyone.

4. Calvin believed that the Holy Spirit works inwardly on the elect and prepares them to believe the gospel message when they hear it. While those who God didn't elect will never believe the gospel.
Arminius believed that the Holy Spirit also works inwardly on everyone, but most reject it because they have a free will to either accept or reject.

5. Calvin believed, all who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ and given faith by the Holy Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in the faith by the power of God so they persevere to the end.
Arminius believed that, the elect can lose their salvation by failing to keep their faith.

So we see how different these gospels are, they don't have much in common at all.

Why do you care what Calvin believed or Arminius?

Why not read the NT and believe what IT teaches?

So do you believe Calvin or orthodox Christianity?

Sorry. Just got here.

 

[GodsGrace]

What people have a hard time figuring out is that both have an ASPECT of the truth. Arminius championed righteousness...and Calvin championed holiness. But each relied on a human one-sided understanding

We see this with Pelagius and Constantine as well. What wins out usually is the holiness argument by throwing out the righteousness argument.

End result...no balance. Those who seek after righteousness have no understanding of holiness. And those who seek after holiness have no understanding of righteousness.

And neither extreme will listen to the other to seek for a balance of the two based on the two main commandments.


Not so. We will be judged by our works. That is to determine righteousness. Yet we are saved (from sin) by grace through faith. That is to promote holiness.

There are a lot of very confused people in the churches. They defend their beliefs with an obstinate self-preservation. So they are unkind...unrighteous...unloving. and they don't care because they think an accuracy of beliefs is what God is looking for.

Sorry E
Just reading thru a little.
Don't you think a person needs holiness to be righteous ? (In God's eyes).

What is holiness?

 

[GodsGrace]

Ok, now I see your issue. God has appointed Shepherds to lead and watch over His Sheep, but you reject Gods ways and go off on your own as a rouge sheep. Gods Word says that rouge sheep are a tasty meal for the hungry Lion, who roams around looking for rebellious rouge sheep.

I suspect you don't belong to the body of Christ by what you say, if your not a member of a local body of believers (Church) then your still outside of Christ. God gave us leaders and teachers because we are just Sheep, Sheep are quite dumb and venerable so we do need someone to protect us and teach us how to live.

If you think that a Sheep can simply read the Gospel and fluke the right interpretation, without relevant qualifications, then you believe that a street sweeper can perform brain surgery successfully. You have turned your back on the worlds greatest theologians and Bible scholars, and appointed yourself as the greatest of all. This is what every cult leader and self deluded expert does.

I agree with you 100%
But I also think you might be reformed....not sure, just got here.

So will stop for now.

 

[Episkopos]

I understood everything you stated, but sadly none of it is supported by Gods Word. You just expressed you private opinion, and I'm no respecter of private opinions, as everyone has their own. So nobody is looking for private opinions, I'm really interested in what God has said, I know the God wrote the Bible inn such a way that only His elect would understand it and the rest would remain blind and confused.

Kind of. The bible can be read on more than one level. But as soon as person reads the bible to justify themselves they fall into trap. At its deeper level the bible is more a book of questions than of answers.
People will be tempted to think they have found the answers without any experience of what the bible attests to.

God doesn't accept the good works of ordinary folks, unless they are born again and indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

That's false. God accepts children, and the meek, the broken and contrite. The repentant..

God only accepts His own works and rejects mans best works as filthy rags. you seem to have missed that elephant in the room in your analogy.

Again that's false. Even a cup of cold water given to a disciple...

You have refuted nothing and you have corrected nothing I said, i don't accept your private judgement as correction. God is the only One who has the authority to judge and correct. So if you can't correct me with scripture then your correction is null and void.

Fine...but will you read? Will you connect the dots?

You should know that the commandments were given to demonstrate that man is felled and total depraved and dead in trespasses and sin.

On the righteousness level yes. For the holiness level we have the Holy Spirit convicting people of sin../even apart from the bible. In fact, it was that very conviction of sin that led me to pick up a bible.

As such it's impossible for man to keep and commandment from God. Man is born into slavery to Satan, so he can't obey two masters unless God liberates him from bondage to sin and Satan.

On the holiness level....yes. A man will covet, for instance even if he doesn't do anything about it. A man will be wrathful at times even if he doesn't murder.

So it foolish to suggest that man has some ability to keep any commandment, God keeps the commandments through His Holy Spirit in the born again believers, so it's not of man at all.

On the holiness level yes. But the commandments are also useful in society at large to jeep on the temporal, physical, righteousness level. For example...all people will be judged based on the second great commandment... to love others as ourselves.

I would strongly suggest you find a faithful Shepherd, who can teach you correct theology so you don't continue to stumble around in blindness.

I will leave you to it and pray you find what you think you are looking for.

 

[Episkopos]

Sorry E
Just reading thru a little.
Don't you think a person needs holiness to be righteous ? (In God's eyes).

Not at all. If that was the case then ONLY the holy could be judged. But God holds us all responsible for our actions. We can all at least love others as ourselves.

What is holiness?

The presence of God. God is holy. For us to be holy as He is holy we need to go to Him and be where He is. Even the holy angels will say...who stand in the presence of God.

And the angel answered and said to him, “I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, and was sent to speak to you and bring you these glad tidings. Luke 1:19

Notice that Gabriel was sent FROM God but still remains in His presence. The same applies for those who walk IN the Spirit.