The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Spiritual Israelite]

No one on earth is going to see the rapture/resurrection happen, only the shocking after effects. i.e. persons suddenly disappearing.

Please show me the scripture which describes "the shocking after effects" of a pretrib (or any time) rapture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

You don't believe that Jesus can come for the rapture/resurrection pre-70th week, i.e. such an hour as you think not, correct ?.

In the Olivet Discourse Jesus talked about things like many turning away from the faith, an increase in wickedness and the appearance of many false Christs and false prophets occurring just before His second coming. Paul said similar things in 2 Thess 2:1-12. But, neither of them were specific about how long those things would occur. So, even if we discern that those things are happening, we still can't know the day or hour that He's coming. This idea that only pretribbers (or those with similar beliefs) truly believe that He will come "in such an hour as ye think not" is ridiculous.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Pretribbers seem to think: if they keep repeating extra-biblical man-made statements like this (that they have been taught), it will somehow make it a biblical fact. No! That is not the way it works. That is called butchering the Word of God. This sums up Pretrib. You cannot show Scripture that teaches this. Quite the opposite. Scripture strongly forbids this.

Your promotion of the idea that Christ’s return will be secret and be unseen is refuted by multiples Scripture. There is nothing secret about His coming. All will see Him. The only secret relating to the coming of the Lord is in regards the actual time of His coming, not the nature or reality of it.

Jesus explains in Matthew 24:27: “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”

Christ's coming shall be sudden as lightning. What is more sudden and spectacular than lightning? Lightning is not hid! It can be seen by all across the sky. This is no secret snatch in this text.

Jesus tells us in Matthew 26:64: “Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.”

This is repeated in Mark 14:62: “ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.”

Jesus said in Luke 21:26–27: “for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.”

Acts 1:9-11 says, “while they (the disciples) beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

How did He go?

Literally, physically, visibly.

That is how He is going to return!

Revelation 1:7. Speaking of this climactic last day, John says, “Behold, he (Christ) cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him (the Jews): and all kindreds of the earth (the Gentile nations) shall wail because of him”

The second coming of Christ is not a secret event. Here we see the most public event of all time – the literal, visible, physical return of the Lord Jesus Christ. This passage unmistakably shows that the glorious Second Advent will be the most amazing public event ever. To such an extent that “every eye shall see him.” The swiftness of Christ’s coming and the speed of the rescue of the saints precludes any possibility of the wicked repenting.

Amen! Well said. The idea of the rapture being a secret event is not taught anywhere in scripture! Not even close! It is a blatant lie. Why are people willing to believe something like that which is never taught in scripture at all in any way, shape or form? These people imagine things in their heads and somehow think their imaginations equate with scripture.

 

[WPM]

Why not? Take the following, for instance.

Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


Why is that event seen by those dwelling on the earth but no one sees a Pretrib rapture taking place? I can tell you why no one on the earth witnesses a Pretrib rapture taking place, and that is because no such thing takes place to begin with. Nothing to see or not see here then. You see it making sense that no one sees a Pretrib rapture taking place and what all that is involving, including the raising of the righteous dead that precedes it. While I see it making sense that the reason no one sees these things to begin with is because no such events happen to begin with, meaning a resurrection of the dead followed by a rapture prior to great tribulation beginning.

But even so, nothing anyone submits is ever going to change your mind. What will change your mind eventually is when we are undeniably in the days of great tribulation worldwide and that you and your Pretrib believing crowd are still here. How can you still insist that a Pretrib rapture precedes great tribulation if when it begins you are still here? Of course though, Preterists and those that align themselves with Preterists, would have us believe Matthew 24:21 is already in the past. Therefore, it's impossible no matter how you look at it for you and Pretribbers to still be here during great tribulation, if great tribulation is already in the past, right?

Even if you are wrong about the timing of the rapture, and clearly you are, the last ones that should be trying to straighten you out are Preterists and those that align themselves with Preterist thinking per Matthew 24:21 but are not Preterists themselves. They need to fix their own mess first, then maybe they can help you fix your mess, since both views are a mess, that great tribulation is already in the past, and that a rapture precedes great tribulation.

This is total gibberish. It doesn't make sense.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Actually I moved from being pre-trib to being anytime rapture view. Pre-trib maintains that the rapture must happen before the 70th week starts. Differently, I maintain that the rapture must happen before the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood, anytime between now and then.

Pre-trib Rapture view is before the covenant is confirm for one week (seven years) in Daniel 9:27.

Anytime Rapture view is anytime before the Antichrist's act of going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God in 2Thesslaonains2:4.

Do you not also believe that the rapture must happen before the 70th week starts and do you not agree with the typical pre-trib view that the tribulation occurs during the 70th week? If so, your view is really the anytime pre-trib rapture view.

Claiming that the rapture has to occur "BEFORE the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood" directly contradicts what Paul taught here:

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Paul made it very clear here that before Jesus comes and we are gathered to Him, that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed". That places the timing of what you call "the Antichrist" claiming to be God AFTER Christ's coming and our being gathered to Him (raptured) occurs. I cannot believe that you would believe something that is just the opposite of what Paul taught. I believe you will do anything to make scripture fit your doctrine including changing it to say that the rapture has to occur BEFORE the so-called "Antichrist" goes "into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood" instead of AFTER that, as Paul indicated.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is total gibberish. It doesn't make sense.

Agree. It only does to him (maybe). He was criticizing pre-trib, but then decided to try to criticize those of us who interpret Matthew 24:15-21 the way we do as well. He seems to be unable to focus on the topic at hand, so his thoughts come across as completely scattered and impossible to follow. I wish he would just focus on one thing at a time and not try to bring in topics that aren't related to this thread.

 

[Davidpt]

This is total gibberish. It doesn't make sense.

So now you are siding with a Pretribber you have been arguing against that insists the Pretrib rapture is not seen by anyone, and that I then explain why. That being because no such rapture takes place to begin with. And you call that gibberish that I dispute that a Pretrib rapture takes place? LOL. Who's side are you on in this debate? I'm on your side, so why are are you not on my side in return? I do not dispute that a rapture takes place and that it is seen by all. I'm not remotely disputing that if it is meaning a post trib rapture. But if it is meaning a Pretrib rapture, and according to @Douggg no one on the earth actually sees it taking place, it's simple as to why they don't. No such event happens to begin with, meaning a Pretrib rapture, and not a post trib rapture as well.

 

[Davidpt]

Agree. It only does to him (maybe). He was criticizing pre-trib, but then decided to try to criticize those of us who interpret Matthew 24:15-21 the way we do as well. He seems to be unable to focus on the topic at hand, so his thoughts come across as completely scattered and impossible to follow. I wish he would just focus on one thing at a time and not try to bring in topics that aren't related to this thread.

Yet great tribulation is connected to this subject, while some of you insist great tribulation is already in the past. Since @Douggg can't be convinced by what anyone submits, that Pretrib is false, how will he ever be convinced unless something happens in the future that he can't deny, thus great tribulation has begun but he is still here? Like I pointed out, both views are a mess, that great tribulation is already in the past, and the rapture precedes great tribulation.

 

[Douggg]

Do you not also believe that the rapture must happen before the 70th week starts and do you not agree with the typical pre-trib view that the tribulation occurs during the 70th week? If so, your view is really the anytime pre-trib rapture view.

No, I don't believe that the rapture must happen before the 70th week starts.

The proponents of the Pre-trib view is that the entire 70th week is considered "the tribulation". I do not. I believe most of the first half of the 70th week, the world will be saying peace and safety - not in tribulation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yet great tribulation is connected to this subject, while some of you insist great tribulation is already in the past.

This thread is specifically about refuting pretrib. Can you just not stand us amils so much that you can't even work with us to refute pre-trib in one thread without trying to argue with us about the same old thing yet again?

Since @Douggg can't be convinced by what anyone submits, that Pretrib is false, how will he ever be convinced unless something happens in the future that he can't deny, thus great tribulation has begun but he is still here?

It's clear to me that absolutely NOTHING could ever convince him that pretrib (or what he calls the anytime rapture) is false. He has made that very clear. He will even resort to saying that Jesus was warning about snow in Jerusalem, where it rarely snows, when Jesus said to pray that they would not have to flee during the winter. He does not care about logic and reason at all. It's silly to think that you or anyone could ever convince him that his view is false. His mind is beyond made up about all this.

Like I pointed out, both views are a mess, that great tribulation is already in the past, and the rapture precedes great tribulation.

What "great tribulation" are you talking about exactly? What does it entail? How can we know that it has begun?

What both Jesus and Paul indicated would happen during a time period before the return of Christ at the end of the age was a mass falling away from the faith and an increase in deception and wickedness (Matt 24:9-13;23-26, 2 Thess 2:1-12). THAT is what we should be looking for, NOT physical tribulation caused by natural disasters. That's why Paul said in 1 Thess 5:1-9 to watch and be sober. We are told to be spiritually aware of what's going on so that we are not deceived. Physical tribulation caused by things like wars, earthquakes and famines have always happened over time but Jesus said those things do NOT indicate that the end of the age is near or at hand (Matt 24:6). If that was the case then surely Jesus would have come by now. We've had two world wars for crying out loud. It's been almost 80 years since the end of the second one and He still hasn't come. So, those kinds of things are not what tell us that His return is near.

Your focus seems to be on physical tribulation and obvious things that would tell us the tribulation before His return has started, but scripture tells us carefully watch out for spiritual tribulation before His return. I believe YOUR view is a mess because it focuses on the wrong things.

 

[Douggg]

Please show me the scripture which describes "the shocking after effects" of a pretrib (or any time) rapture.

There are none - so as that the rapture moment cannot be pinpointed by that means.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There are none - so as that the rapture moment cannot be pinpointed by that means.

What are you saying here exactly? Are you talking about things that would indicate exactly when the rapture would occur? If so, that is not what I'm asking about. What you said here does not answer my question.

What I'm asking you is to show me the scripture which describes the "shocking after effects" of an anytime or pretrib rapture. Surely, the "shocking after effects" of an anytime or pretrib rapture would be described somewhere in scripture since that would be such a significant event, so I'm asking you to tell me where that is described.

 

[Douggg]

What are you saying here exactly? Are you talking about things that would indicate exactly when the rapture would occur? If so, that is not what I'm asking about. What you said here does not answer my question.

What I'm asking you is to show me the scripture which describes the "shocking after effects" of an anytime or pretrib rapture. Surely, the "shocking after effects" of an anytime or pretrib rapture would be described somewhere in scripture since that would be such a significant event, so I'm asking you to tell me where that is described.

A non-Christian is riding in a car, driven by a Christian who is suddenly taken in the rapture. What would be the shocking after effect? One example.

There are automobile crashes that happen everyday. Yet scripture says nothing about automobile crashes.

 

[WPM]

So now you are siding with a Pretribber you have been arguing against that insists the Pretrib rapture is not seen by anyone, and that I then explain why. That being because no such rapture takes place to begin with. And you call that gibberish that I dispute that a Pretrib rapture takes place? LOL. Who's side are you on in this debate? I'm on your side, so why are are you not on my side in return? I do not dispute that a rapture takes place and that it is seen by all. I'm not remotely disputing that if it is meaning a post trib rapture. But if it is meaning a Pretrib rapture, and according to @Douggg no one on the earth actually sees it taking place, it's simple as to why they don't. No such event happens to begin with, meaning a Pretrib rapture, and not a post trib rapture as well.

Sorry if it came across harsh. Maybe I am misunderstanding you. I am sure we agree on this overall subject.

 

[The Light]

Avoidance and ad hominem are you 2 main weapons in debate.

Hey Mr. Avoidance.

Where is your rapture in Revelation?

You demand answers about pretrib when the Lord clearly tells us He is coming when you think not. Where in scripture is the pretrib rapture, you demand.

And yet you can't even show where in Revelation the rapture is.

 

[WPM]

Hey Mr. Avoidance.

Where is your rapture in Revelation?

You demand answers about pretrib when the Lord clearly tells us He is coming when you think not. Where in scripture is the pretrib rapture, you demand.

And yet you can't even show where in Revelation the rapture is.

I showed you. I showed the various accounts of the R/R at the coming of Christ in Revelation. You had no rebuttal to these.

 

[The Light]

I showed you. I showed the various accounts of the R/R at the coming of Christ in Revelation. You had no rebuttal to these.

You mean like I showed you the 24 elders in heaven with crowns proving that Jesus has come and the kings and priest in heaven in Rev 5 that you cannot refute?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

A non-Christian is riding in a car, driven by a Christian who is suddenly taken in the rapture. What would be the shocking after effect? One example.

Obviously the car would crash, possibly into civilians or into other cars, and people would die or get hurt. There would be many such car crashes throughout the world. Everywhere that Christians were driving. Any planes being piloted by Christians would crash. It would be complete, utter chaos throughout the world if millions (or however many) of Christians suddenly disappeared.

There are automobile crashes that happen everyday. Yet scripture says nothing about automobile crashes.

Not like there would be if millions of people around the world all disappeared at once! Goodness gracious. Why are you trying to downplay how chaotic and insane it would be if that happened? You're comparing that to a normal day? Please be serious here.

Surely, such an event of mass chaos and physical, mental and emotional destruction and devastation that was the after effects of something prophesied in the Bible would be described in scripture somewhere. But, nothing? I can't take that seriously. It's ridiculous. I'll never understand why people believe in a pretrib (or anytime) rapture when there is no scriptural support for that whatsoever. Any time you face a challenging question you reply with very weak responses like this one. Why are you willing to believe in a doctrine that you can't defend and support with scripture?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You mean like I showed you the 24 elders in heaven with crowns proving that Jesus has come and the kings and priest in heaven in Rev 5 that you cannot refute?

LOL. Where is the clear, straightforward scripture which supports your doctrine? All you have to support your doctrine are highly debatable verses from the most highly symbolic book in all of scripture. That's a very shaky foundation for a doctrine!

The fact of the matter is we are not told who exactly the 24 elders are and it says they have crowns of gold. What we are said to receive when Jesus returns is the crown of life. So, where does it say that the elders are human beings that have been caught up to meet Christ at His return and have received the crown of life? Oh yeah. Nowhere.

Is this all you have? You have no clear scripture at all to back up your doctrine? That appears to be the case.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So now you are siding with a Pretribber you have been arguing against that insists the Pretrib rapture is not seen by anyone, and that I then explain why. That being because no such rapture takes place to begin with. And you call that gibberish that I dispute that a Pretrib rapture takes place? LOL. Who's side are you on in this debate? I'm on your side, so why are are you not on my side in return? I do not dispute that a rapture takes place and that it is seen by all. I'm not remotely disputing that if it is meaning a post trib rapture. But if it is meaning a Pretrib rapture, and according to @Douggg no one on the earth actually sees it taking place, it's simple as to why they don't. No such event happens to begin with, meaning a Pretrib rapture, and not a post trib rapture as well.

Why are you acting all innocent here? You complain about that while you threw in unnecessary jabs in your post against him and people who interpret Matthew 24:21 like him (including me)? I would assume what he considered gibberish in that post was you saying unnecessary and insulting things.

Even if you are wrong about the timing of the rapture, and clearly you are, the last ones that should be trying to straighten you out are Preterists and those that align themselves with Preterist thinking per Matthew 24:21 but are not Preterists themselves. They need to fix their own mess first, then maybe they can help you fix your mess, since both views are a mess, that great tribulation is already in the past, and that a rapture precedes great tribulation.

And you wonder why he considered your post to be gibberish? It's because some of it was. You just can't help yourself. You couldn't just stick to refuting pretrib, you just had to get a dig in against how people like WPM and myself interpret Matthew 24:21. That was completely unnecessary and total gibberish that serves no purpose in a thread like this.

It's amazing to me that you have the gall to criticize our interpretation of Matthew 24:15-21 when you are not even able to give a coherent explanation of how it should be interpreted yourself. That makes no sense.