Why are the martyrs under heavens altar so eager to see justice for their killers?

[Nancy]

Metaphor or not, this verse always made me wonder why these martyrs cried out all the time to God to venge their deaths. You would think that heaven would be so much better. I could understand them wanting to see vengeance for ALL people but just their own selves?

Either way, it seems contrary to Proverbs 24:17 "Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, and let not your heart be glad when he stumbles". And we are to love our enemies now, after the cross.

Anybody here ever study this much? Would love some input.

 

[BarneyFife]

Metaphor or not, this verse always made me wonder why these martyrs cried out all the time to God to venge their deaths. You would think that heaven would be so much better. I could understand them wanting to see vengeance for ALL people but just their own selves?

Either way, it seems contrary to Proverbs 24:17 "Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, and let not your heart be glad when he stumbles". And we are to love our enemies now, after the cross.

Anybody here ever study this much? Would love some input.

At the risk of frustrating the question, I think it's precisely because they (the elders) are, indeed, metaphorical. Proverbs 24:17 certainly helps to make a good case for such an interpretation. Sorry, Sis.

How are you, btw?


.

 

[BarneyFife]

The elders exclamations likely represent, in some limited sense, God's view of the matter, since it's clear enough from Scripture that human beings don't manage vengeance well at all.

.

 

[Nancy]

At the risk of frustrating the question, I think it's precisely because they (the elders) are, indeed, metaphorical. Proverbs 24:17 certainly helps to make a good case for such an interpretation. Sorry, Sis.

How are you, btw?


.

Hey Barn! Well, either way it's the wrong attitude comparatively and metaphorically speaking

Doing well, thanks. Have not seen you in a bit brother, I trust you are well??

 

[BarneyFife]

Hey Barn! Well, either way it's the wrong attitude comparatively and metaphorically speaking

Doing well, thanks. Have not seen you in a bit brother, I trust you are well??

Better than I deserve, as they say. :)

.

 

[Nancy]

The elders exclamations likely represent, in some limited sense, God's view of the matter, since it's clear enough from Scripture that human beings don't manage vengeance well at all.

.

Oh how true humans do not handle vengeance well at all, SO happy that God is NOT one of us, lol...there'd be nobody but God and His angels and creation in heaven! For real!

 

[marks]

Metaphor or not, this verse always made me wonder why these martyrs cried out all the time to God to venge their deaths. You would think that heaven would be so much better. I could understand them wanting to see vengeance for ALL people but just their own selves?

Either way, it seems contrary to Proverbs 24:17 "Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, and let not your heart be glad when he stumbles". And we are to love our enemies now, after the cross.

Anybody here ever study this much? Would love some input.

These are those who were martyred of Israel in OT times, and cry out for the vengeance which God declared He would give to them. The more who will be martyred are the many Israelites who will be slaughtered by the beast.

Much love!

 

[PS95]

Metaphor or not, this verse always made me wonder why these martyrs cried out all the time to God to venge their deaths. You would think that heaven would be so much better. I could understand them wanting to see vengeance for ALL people but just their own selves?

Either way, it seems contrary to Proverbs 24:17 "Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, and let not your heart be glad when he stumbles". And we are to love our enemies now, after the cross.

Anybody here ever study this much? Would love some input.

I never took that as literal. They are in peace. I think that the thought is that they relied on God for His promised vengeance. We forgive, He repays. He does not forget. It is showing us that he will keep all of His promises. He "hears" them as in He remembers and will act.

 

[Lizbeth]

Metaphor or not, this verse always made me wonder why these martyrs cried out all the time to God to venge their deaths. You would think that heaven would be so much better. I could understand them wanting to see vengeance for ALL people but just their own selves?

Either way, it seems contrary to Proverbs 24:17 "Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, and let not your heart be glad when he stumbles". And we are to love our enemies now, after the cross.

Anybody here ever study this much? Would love some input.

That is a good question and I used to wonder that myself. This might be at least a partial answer.......perhaps they are praying in accordance with the will of God in order to rid the world of sin and evil when the time comes....which will be a good thing. And the bible does say that vengeance belongs to God - He will repay.

Came to realize that judgment is righteous.....justice is a righteous thing. But we as the church are to show grace and mercy to our enemies in order to demonstrate the gospel, the grace and mercy of Christ, as long as the door to the gospel remains open. And also we as individual mortals are not qualified as judges of our fellow men, so we are to leave that kind of judgment/vengeance to God.........who does give authority to governing authorities to execute vengeance in this age on those who do evil:

Rom 13:1-5

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

(Never used to believe in capital punishment at all........but now I think just governments are right to have it, in cases of clear cut guilt for certain crimes.)

 

[Nancy]

That is a good question and I used to wonder that myself. This might be at least a partial answer.......perhaps they are praying in accordance with the will of God in order to rid the world of sin and evil when the time comes....which will be a good thing. And the bible does say that vengeance belongs to God - He will repay.

Came to realize that judgment is righteous.....justice is a righteous thing. But we as the church are to show grace and mercy to our enemies in order to demonstrate the gospel, the grace and mercy of Christ, as long as the door to the gospel remains open. And also we as individual mortals are not qualified as judges of our fellow men, so we are to leave that kind of judgment/vengeance to God.........who does give authority to governing authorities to execute vengeance in this age on those who do evil:

Rom 13:1-5

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

(Never used to believe in capital punishment at all........but now I think just governments are right to have it, in cases of clear cut guilt for certain crimes.)

Thank you for the reply Lizbeth!

 

[quietthinker]

Could it be that the redress they expect is not how God deals with the matter?

 

[Rockerduck]

I suppose you are talking about Rev. 6:9-11.

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

In the Old Testament the priests sacrificed on the brazen altar, and the blood was poured out at the base of the altar (Lev. 4:7), representing life. The souls of the martyrs were under the altar which means their lives were sacrificed for God. These are tribulation saints that will be killed because of their testimony of Christ. Their murderers are still alive on the earth. They want the wrath of God to wipe evil from the earth, just like we do.

The sad news is this might be a lot of us a short time from now. When they come into the Churches and homes and execute those of us worshipping. This is happening right now on this earth.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I think it is because in heavent they understand what God knows. There is no hope for these people. They are beyond hope. As God told abraham, their sin is complete.

So allowing them to live is to allow them to continue to kill Gods people.

I also think it helps us. How many times have we seen people ask. How long will God allow evil to continue? This is a hard question. Of course he tells us, he is patient, not willing that any should perish.

But what we know from passages such as these. God is not silent, He will act, he will win. And evil will be eradicated.

 

[Jericho]

Metaphor or not, this verse always made me wonder why these martyrs cried out all the time to God to venge their deaths. You would think that heaven would be so much better. I could understand them wanting to see vengeance for ALL people but just their own selves?

Either way, it seems contrary to Proverbs 24:17 "Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, and let not your heart be glad when he stumbles". And we are to love our enemies now, after the cross.

Anybody here ever study this much? Would love some input.

How do we reconcile that with Pslam 58?

Do you indeed speak righteousness, you silent ones?
Do you judge uprightly, you sons of men? (Psa 58:1)

Break their teeth in their mouth, O God!
Break out the fangs of the young lions, O LORD! (Psa 58:6)

The righteous shall rejoice when he sees the vengeance;
He shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked,

So that men will say,
“Surely there is a reward for the righteous;
Surely He is God who judges in the earth.” (Psa 58:10-11)

 

[Behold]

For evil to be rewarded with eternal Justice, is God righteousness revealed against it.

We can read the account of the Sodomites (sexual perverts) in Gen 19, and we read about "fire and brimstone".
Literally, that is God reflecting His awesome Holiness in the direction of sin, and it burned it up.

Reader, did you ever willfully do some carnal deed, and right after you did, you felt SICK?
That is the Holy Spirit in you, being grieved, and that is how it feels, inside you.

Notice something very interesting reader...

The Damnation, or the Eternal Judgement of God, that is John 3:36, is not against sinners sinning all their lives... Its against only one sin, and that is the sin of REJECTING CHRIST.

Also,

God says that a "false balance" is an "abomination".
What is that?
Its Something as simple as a bribe.
God says that people who cheat, are "unclean", and we would think of unclean as sexual perversion, vs, "cheaters".

You will find a verse in the Holy Bible that says that if you cheat, or defraud, another Christian....= that "Jesus is the AVENGER of that situation"

Not too many people, Believers, realize that....about the LORD JESUS The Christ.

So, dont cheat a "brother or a sister".... as Ananias and Sapphira tried that and they were killed on the spot and carried out of the Building., and noone saw the "invisible hand" that put their bodies to death.............

So, its righteous judgment for Hell to exist, exactly as its righteousness Judgement for Jesus to come back, "in Flaming Fire, Taking Vengeance on all those who obey not the Gospel". 2 Thess 1:8-9 (KJV) .. so use that version, vs many other that try to soften that and water it down..

That is people dying, reader, courtesy of the very same LORD who came the first time to die for everyone's sin, as the :"Lamb of God".

"JESUS< the SAME....Yesterday, Today, and Forever'...

Isn't that so very interesting...

So, its righteous judgement for the one Slain for sin He never committed.... to come again, to set the balance in order, and set up His Righteousness on THIS Earth.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Metaphor or not, this verse always made me wonder why these martyrs cried out all the time to God to venge their deaths. You would think that heaven would be so much better. I could understand them wanting to see vengeance for ALL people but just their own selves?

Either way, it seems contrary to Proverbs 24:17 "Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, and let not your heart be glad when he stumbles". And we are to love our enemies now, after the cross.

Anybody here ever study this much? Would love some input.

I think it is pretty simple.

1) God is a God of justice and Mercy.

2) Certain People act as tools or agents of the Devil to cause harm to God's people.

3) People do not want to remain in a state of abuse, nor do they want their family members, or friends to likewise remain in that state. Such people, will cry out to end the abuse.

4) People who act as tools of the Devil also can have their hearts hardened where they cannot repent.


I don't see this passage as being much different than with the stuff going on in Exodus, especially with Pharoah. That however was deliberately protracted for theological reasons (to show God's Providence and complete defeat and mastery over all the God's of Egypt.)


I will add I guess this issue is pretty clear to me because I have had to argue similar things like on Christians defending themselves vs. "Turning the other cheek" etc. I believe there is an implied "Duty to Protect" coming from many different scriptures that comes with being an authority figure, or even being "your brother's keeper" so to speak, and that basically extends to all leader type figurers; to fail to not act is negligence, and naturally this also would pertain even to God.

 

[Nancy]

I never took that as literal. They are in peace. I think that the thought is that they relied on God for His promised vengeance. We forgive, He repays. He does not forget. It is showing us that he will keep all of His promises. He "hears" them as in He remembers and will act.

Thanks for the reply and yes, kind of like "Ables blood is crying from the ground" is not literal :)

 

[BlessedPeace]

I think reading a little further provides an answer.

17. Do not gloat when your enemy falls;
when they stumble, do not let your heart rejoice,
18 or the Lord will see and disapprove
and turn his wrath away from them.

19 Do not fret because of evildoers
or be envious of the wicked,
20 for the evildoer has no future hope,
and the lamp of the wicked will be snuffed out.

 

[Wick Stick]

Metaphor or not, this verse always made me wonder why these martyrs cried out all the time to God to venge their deaths. You would think that heaven would be so much better. I could understand them wanting to see vengeance for ALL people but just their own selves?

Either way, it seems contrary to Proverbs 24:17 "Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, and let not your heart be glad when he stumbles". And we are to love our enemies now, after the cross.

Anybody here ever study this much? Would love some input.

It's a reference to another book, but that one isn't in the Bible.

In the pseudepigraphal Book of 1Enoch (chapter 22), the titular character is taken on a tour where he is shown four resting places for the souls of the dead. There is a place for the martyrs, one for the righteous (not martyrs), one for the evil, one for those who were neither good nor bad, but just... lukewarm. There, the martyrs continually cry out to God for justice.

The idea there (and perhaps in Revelation) is that justice hasn't been served with regards to the martyrs. They cry out to God for justice. Ultimately they are owed something, which turns out to be a physical resurrection separate from the general resurrection. They are given a 2nd chance to live the lives that were abbreviated because they were martyred. Revelation 20 gives more information on this separate resurrection. There is another reference to the same chapter of 1Enoch in the book of Hebrews as well.

-Jarrod

 

[Hepzibah]

Rev 7:13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,
“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.
16 ‘Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’
nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’
‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’”

Those who are before the throne of God, dressed in white, are prominent in Revelation, as being those whose nakedness (sin) is covered, usually thought to be everyone who believes in Jesus, but as we know, most did not believe that He died to save them from sin in this life.

The ones here:

Rev. 6:9-11.

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed,

are however, under the altar, and not before it, crying for justice, and not wearing the white robe, so are still in their sins. They were then given the white robe however, and told to rest a little while longer to await others.

So I believe that this is the reason they wanted revenge. They were not at that time purified. Those who wear the white robe are the holy ones, and are already dwellers of heaven.

There is the belief in Orthodoxy that there is a stopover place before heaven, but not the purgatory of the Catholics, which I have not studied yet which seems to have some backing with scriptures such as these.