The messiah didn't come yet.

[Scott Downey]

And the messiah will come again, as in return to fulfil the reset of the prophecies concerning Himself.
That is the 'world to come of which we speak' spoken of constantly in the New Testament.

First time He came as a sacrifice for sin.
Second time He comes for salvation, as in to wipe out all evil and rule over all.
It will be a whole new world.

Hebrews 2

New King James Version

​

Do Not Neglect Salvation​

2 Therefore we must give [a]the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just [b]reward, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts[c] of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

The Son Made Lower than Angels​

5 For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels. 6 But one testified in a certain place, saying:
“What is man that You are mindful of him,
Or the son of man that You take care of him?
7 You have made him [d]a little lower than the angels;
You have crowned him with glory and honor,
[e]And set him over the works of Your hands.
8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”
For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made [f]a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

Bringing Many Sons to Glory​

10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who [g]sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:
“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”
13 And again:
“I will put My trust in Him.”
And again:
“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”
14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not [h]give aid to angels, but He does [i]give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being [j]tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

 

[Debp]

take your time and continue reading the Bible.

I agree @PanInVietnam should keep reading the Bible.

I would suggest if he wants to read the Old Testament...that he should try to also read from The Gospel of John in order to learn about Jesus Christ.

 

[Scott Downey]

That salvation to be revealed to the entire world, when Christ returns to rule visibly to the unbelieving world.

As Christians we know He is already ruling. But we do not see it openly yet.
It will be for our salvation from this wicked age, we will be part of that new world, and it means the destruction of all unbelievers, all the wicked will be ashes under our feet on the great and terrible Day of the Lord.

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To the [a]pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

A Heavenly Inheritance​

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance [b]incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been [c]grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not [d]seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

 

[PanInVietnam]

isnt it how we read a book from the beginning? unless not applicable to religious book?

 

[Scott Downey]

Malachi 4

The Great Day of God​

1 “For behold, the day is coming,
Burning like an oven,
And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble.
And the day which is coming shall burn them up,”
Says the Lord of hosts,
“That will leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But to you who fear My name
The Sun of Righteousness shall arise
With healing in His wings;
And you shall go out
And grow fat like stall-fed calves.
3 You shall trample the wicked,
For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet
On the day that I do this,”
Says the Lord of hosts.
4 “Remember the Law of Moses, My servant,
Which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel,
With the statutes and judgments.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet
Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
6 And he will turn
The hearts of the fathers to the children,
And the hearts of the children to their fathers,
Lest I come and strike the earth with a curse.”

 

[Debp]

isnt it how we read a book from the beginning? unless not applicable to religious book?

Some Christians like to read from both Testaments at one time.

As for myself, I really love the New Testament. There is a lot of wonderful and encouraging words in the New Testament...even helping us in our daily life. And we learn the words and wonderful things that Jesus Christ did while in the Earth.

Some words from Jesus Christ...

28Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
Gospel of Matthew 11:28-30

 

[Matthias]

isnt it how we read a book from the beginning? unless not applicable to religious book?

You’re going to need the Old Testament background before you read the New Testament in order to properly understand the story. Read the Bible from the beginning.

 

[Debp]

You’re going to need the Old Testament background before you read the New Testament in order to properly understand the story. Read the Bible from the beginning.

If @PanInVietnam is interested in the Christian faith, he should also read a portion of the New Testament, along with the Old Testament.

I minored in Missions while at Bible college. We always told people to start reading the Gospel of John first.

 

[Matthias]

If @PanInVietnam is interested in the Christian faith, he should also read a portion of the New Testament, along with the Old Testament.

I minored in Missions while at Bible college. We always told people to start reading the Gospel of John first.

I understand where you’re coming from. We always advise people interested in the Christian faith to start their New Testament reading with the synoptic Gospels first. John’s Gospel is more complicated.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Bs"d

That's weird, nobody has seen him.

But he did come.

Just as the prophet Zechariah said he would

Zech 9: “Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion!
Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, your King is coming to you;
He is just and having salvation,
Lowly and riding on a donkey,

He came at the time appointed. By another prophet.

Dan 9: 25
“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The [h]street shall be built again, and the [i]wall,
Even in troublesome times.

If you look at the time from the day Nehemiah was given the command to restore Jerusalem, until messiah the prince., You will see, Jesus entered Jerusalem on that donkey on that day.

He is said he would be born of a virgin

Is 7: 13 Then he said, “Hear now, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

He would be born in Bethlehem

Mic 5: 2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth are from of old, From everlasting.”

and this is just a beginning of all the prophecy your law and prophets speak of.

 

[Matthias]

A short story about a lesson learned during my second visit to Africa. As I was giving a lecture at a Bible college in Kenya one day, a man in the audience raised an objection: he liked Americans, he said, but he didn’t like the American government and would not be easily persuaded by anything that was written in a “propaganda Bible“.

What?

I had mentioned at the beginning of the lecture that I was using the New American Standard Bible (NASB). It hadn’t occurred to me that the name “American” (in New American Standard Bible) would be, or might be, perceived by an audience comprised of non-US citizen students as a Bible produced by the government of the United States. Lecture derailed due to a cultural perception that I hadn’t anticipated, but a lesson was learned by the teacher.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

A short story about a lesson learned during my second visit to Africa. As I was giving a lecture at a Bible college in Kenya one day, a man in the audience raised an objection: he liked Americans, he said, but he didn’t like the American government and would not be easily persuaded by anything that was written in a “propaganda Bible“.

What?

I had mentioned at the beginning of the lecture that I was using the New American Standard Bible (NASB). It hadn’t occurred to me that the name “American” (in New American Standard Bible) would be, or might be, perceived by an audience comprised of non-US citizen students as a Bible produced by the government of the United States. Lecture derailed due to a cultural perception that I hadn’t anticipated, but a lesson was learned by the teacher.

wow. the little things we do not think of..

 

[Matthias]

this thread was a long read and learned many stuff from Eliyahu. I will pass this link to the Vietnamese friend who tries to bring me into his church.

If your Vietnamese friend is a Christian then you need to be prepared in advance for what his response should be.

“Who, then, is the liar? It is those who say that Jesus is not the Messiah. Such people are the Enemy of Christ - they reject both the Father and the Son.”

(1 John 2:22, GNT)

Whether your friend responds this way or not, this is the New Testament response to Eliyahu.

 

[Matthias]

Bs"d

… nobody has seen him.

Even you have seen him, Eliyahu. He is present here now, in spirit, in his disciples.

Jesus sends his disciples into the world. When we see them, we see the one who sent them. And when we see Jesus (in them), we see the one God who sent Jesus -> his God and Father, Yahweh.

 

[Eliyahu613]

And the messiah will come again, as in return to fulfil the reset of the prophecies concerning Himself.
That is the 'world to come of which we speak' spoken of constantly in the New Testament.

First time He came as a sacrifice for sin.
Second time He comes for salvation, as in to wipe out all evil and rule over all.
It will be a whole new world.

Bs"d

In the Tanach there is no messiah to be found who will come as a sacrifice for sin. That concept doesn't exist.

 

[Eliyahu613]

But he did come.

Just as the prophet Zechariah said he would

Zech 9: “Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion!
Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, your King is coming to you;
He is just and having salvation,
Lowly and riding on a donkey,

Bs"d

You bring as a proof that JC was the messiah, a messianic prophecy which has NOT been fulfilled by JC. Don't you think that is absurd?

Here is the whole prophecy:

Zacheriah 9:9-10; "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth."

They say that he did ride on a donkey, like the whole Middle East in those days, but that is where it stops. He did not bring any peace, the battle bow, the horses and the chariots, symbols of war, were not cut off from Jerusalem, and his dominion was not from sea to sea and to the ends of the earth; as a matter of fact, he did not have any dominion at all.

He came at the time appointed. By another prophet.

Dan 9: 25
“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The [h]street shall be built again, and the [i]wall,
Even in troublesome times.

If you look at the time from the day Nehemiah was given the command to restore Jerusalem, until messiah the prince., You will see, Jesus entered Jerusalem on that donkey on that day.

If you want to know what is going on in Daniel 9. look here: Daniel 9

He is said he would be born of a virgin

Is 7: 13 Then he said, “Hear now, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

In the whole Hebrew Bible there is no virgin birth to found. Just doesn't exist. Your ideas are based on corrupted Bible translations.

For the finer details look here: Isaiah 7

He would be born in Bethlehem

Mic 5: 2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth are from of old, From everlasting.”

and this is just a beginning of all the prophecy your law and prophets speak of.

And again you bring a messianic prophecy NOT fulfilled by JC, as proof that he was the messiah:

Micha 5:2-9; "But thou Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for NOW shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders. And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men. And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off."

Here we have very clearly physical redemption from earthly enemies: "And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword", "Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off." These are very clear verses that can not be misinterpreted; when the messiah comes the Jewish enemies are going to be slaughtered. And the one coming forth from Bethlehem is to be a ruler in Israel, that is a king, or maybe nowadays a president, but not a wandering preacher and miracle healer.

It is very simple: When somebody claims he is the messiah, then he has to fulfill the messianic prophecies. If he doesn't fulfill the messianic prophecies, then he is not the messiah.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Bs"d

You bring as a proof that JC was the messiah, a messianic prophecy which has NOT been fulfilled by JC. Don't you think that is absurd?

Here is the whole prophecy:

Zacheriah 9:9-10; "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth."

They say that he did ride on a donkey, like the whole Middle East in those days, but that is where it stops. He did not bring any peace, the battle bow, the horses and the chariots, symbols of war, were not cut off from Jerusalem, and his dominion was not from sea to sea and to the ends of the earth; as a matter of fact, he did not have any dominion at all.


If you want to know what is going on in Daniel 9. look here: Daniel 9

Here is your issue

the time line that Dan 9 was given fits perfect;y with jesus.

so either he came, and will latter will fulfill the rest.

Or he did not come, and both prophets are in error.. Throw the bible out

In the whole Hebrew Bible there is no virgin birth to found. Just doesn't exist. Your ideas are based on corrupted Bible translations.

lol.. Whatever

For the finer details look here: Isaiah 7

Again, whatever.

It is obvious you will only see what you want.

And again you bring a messianic prophecy NOT fulfilled by JC, as proof that he was the messiah:

Micha 5:2-9; "But thou Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for NOW shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders. And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men. And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off."

But he did come, to save his people from their sin. What good is it if he came to rule the world. but left the world in their sin.

The suffering servant and messiah are one and the same.. its part of the hidden mystery.

Here we have very clearly physical redemption from earthly enemies: "And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword", "Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off." These are very clear verses that can not be misinterpreted; when the messiah comes the Jewish enemies are going to be slaughtered. And the one coming forth from Bethlehem is to be a ruler in Israel, that is a king, or maybe nowadays a president, but not a wandering preacher and miracle healer.

Again, What good is physical redemption, if your spiritual redemption is left unpaid

It is very simple: When somebody claims he is the messiah, then he has to fulfill the messianic prophecies. If he doesn't fulfill the messianic prophecies, then he is not the messiah.

But he did fullfill all of them 100 % in the first advent, where no one else comes even close.

and he will fulfill the rest of them 100 %

of that we can be sure

 

[Eliyahu613]

Here is your issue

the time line that Dan 9 was given fits perfect;y with jesus.

so either he came, and will latter will fulfill the rest.

Or he did not come, and both prophets are in error.. Throw the bible out

Just read this and see that Daniel 9 does NOT fit perfectly with JC, and that we don't have to throw the Bible out: Daniel 9

lol.. Whatever

Again, whatever.

It is obvious you will only see what you want.

I see what is written there.

But he did come, to save his people from their sin. What good is it if he came to rule the world. but left the world in their sin.

Once the messiah is here, people will see the hand of God, and know what God wants from them, and then they'll stop sinning.

The suffering servant and messiah are one and the same.. its part of the hidden mystery.

What proof do you have that the suffering servant is JC?

Again, What good is physical redemption, if your spiritual redemption is left unpaid

But he did fullfill all of them 100 % in the first advent, where no one else comes even close.

and he will fulfill the rest of them 100 %

of that we can be sure

Well.... Sure.... If he fulfilled all of 'm 100% in the first advent, (which of course he did not) then there is no rest for him to fulfill.

So far the messianic messages have not been fulfilled.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Bs"d

Just read this and see that Daniel 9 does NOT fit perfectly with JC, and that we don't have to throw the Bible out: Daniel 9

I see what is written there.

Once the messiah is here, people will see the hand of God, and know what God wants from them, and then they'll stop sinning.

What proof do you have that the suffering servant is JC?

Well.... Sure.... If he fulfilled all of 'm 100% in the first advent, (which of course he did not) then there is no rest for him to fulfill.

So far the messianic messages have not been fulfilled.

What proof do I have

What proof do you have that he is not?

 

[Matthias]

@Eliyahu613 where do you think Jesus of Nazareth is right now?

This is something important that @PanInVietnam needs to hear and be clear about.