The messiah didn't come yet.

[Lizbeth]

Bs"d

No.

At least we agree that he didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies.

We'll have to see about that. For the time being he is 2000 years too late. He said he would be back in his own generation. Didn't work out so well.

Oh but Yeshua DID come, in wrath in 70 AD, (to judge and vanquish His enemies, which was apostate Israel at that time) within the generation that heard His prophecies:

Isa 10:3
And what will ye do in the day of visitation, and in the desolation which shall come from far? to whom will ye flee for help? and where will ye leave your glory?

Jer 8:12
Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore shall they fall among them that fall: in the time of their visitation they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.

(All authority/power was given to Him by the Father after He rose from the dead.)

But I believe it is a case of "to the Jew first, then the Gentile" and what happened to Israel is an ensample of what will also happen in the end to the world (Gentile nations) that rejects Him.

I fear for modern Israel too though, that she will pay again (double/twice) for her sins....and it seems she is getting set to double down on her error with the rebuilding of the Temple that the Lord threw down and a false messiah will be set up there.

Isa 40:2
Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins.

Jer 16:18
And first I will recompense their iniquity and their sin double; because they have defiled my land, they have filled mine inheritance with the carcases of their detestable and abominable things.

Jer 17:18
Let them be confounded that persecute me, but let not me be confounded: let them be dismayed, but let not me be dismayed: bring upon them the day of evil, and destroy them with double destruction.

Rev 18:6
Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

(This principle I believe is reflected in the law in Ex. 22 that talks about having to restore back double when someone steals or causes the loss of someone else's goods/property. It is justice/just, in God's eyes.)

I don't want to rub salt into anyone's wounds, and I have been praying for the release of hostages and for Hamas terror organization to be eliminated, but think it is worth noting that abominations as well as overt idol worship were being committed at the music festival near the Gaza border in Israel when those horrific and unspeakably cruel attacks occurred on Oct. 7. "I the Lord do not change." If only Israel would wake up and and learn from this, and likewise we all need to learn from this example. Beyond the pale sins leads to beyond the pale judgments, tragically! Where is the fear of the Lord? Heavenly Father, I pray you will open eyes that are blind and unstop deaf ears.....in wrath remember mercy O Lord.

 

[Eliyahu613]

Oh but Yeshua DID come, in wrath in 70 AD, (to judge and vanquish His enemies, which was apostate Israel at that time) within the generation that heard His prophecies:

Bs"d

That's weird, nobody has seen him.

 

[Matthias]

Bs"d

That's weird, nobody has seen him.

Everyone will see him when he returns (Matthew 24:26-27; Revelation 1:7).

 

[Lizbeth]

Bs"d

That's weird, nobody has seen him.

Did anyone "see" the Lord the other times He visited the nation in wrath?

Many saw Him when He was walking among the people and doing miracles and teaching. But "Blessed are you who have not seen, and yet believe."

 

[JohnD]

Bs"d

The messiah hasn't come yet.

For the finer details look here: [removed]

Then he missed a very important curtain call in Daniel 9:26 (before the destruction of the second temple).

 

[JohnD]

351 prophecies in Tanakh that Yeshua fulfilled

Let's get into the nitty gritty, shall we?

Yirimyahu 31:30-33 (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

30 Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, and I will form a covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, a new covenant.		להִנֵּ֛ה יָמִ֥ים בָּאִ֖ים נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֑ה וְכָֽרַתִּ֗י אֶת־בֵּ֧ית יִשְׂרָאֵ֛ל וְאֶת־בֵּ֥ית יְהוּדָ֖ה בְּרִ֥ית חֲדָשָֽׁה:
31 Not like the covenant that I formed with their forefathers on the day I took them by the hand to take them out of the land of Egypt, that they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, says the Lord.		לאלֹ֣א כַבְּרִ֗ית אֲשֶׁ֚ר כָּרַ֙תִּי֙ אֶת־אֲבוֹתָ֔ם בְּיוֹם֙ הֶֽחֱזִיקִ֣י בְיָדָ֔ם לְהֽוֹצִיאָ֖ם מֵאֶ֖רֶץ מִצְרָ֑יִם אֲשֶׁר־הֵ֜מָּה הֵפֵ֣רוּ אֶת־בְּרִיתִ֗י וְאָֽנֹכִ֛י בָּעַ֥לְתִּי בָ֖ם נְאֻם־יְהֹוָֽה:
32 For this is the covenant that I will form with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will place My law in their midst and I will inscribe it upon their hearts, and I will be their God and they shall be My people.		לבכִּ֣י זֹ֣את הַבְּרִ֡ית אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶכְרֹת֩ אֶת־בֵּ֨ית יִשְׂרָאֵ֜ל אַֽחֲרֵ֨י הַיָּמִ֚ים הָהֵם֙ נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֔ה נָתַ֚תִּי אֶת־תּֽוֹרָתִי֙ בְּקִרְבָּ֔ם וְעַל־לִבָּ֖ם אֶכְתֳּבֶ֑נָּה וְהָיִ֚יתִי לָהֶם֙ לֵֽאלֹהִ֔ים וְהֵ֖מָּה יִֽהְיוּ־לִ֥י לְעָֽם:
33 And no longer shall one teach his neighbor or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.		לגוְלֹ֧א יְלַמְּד֣וּ ע֗וֹד אִ֣ישׁ אֶת־רֵעֵ֜הוּ וְאִ֚ישׁ אֶת־אָחִיו֙ לֵאמֹ֔ר דְּע֖וּ אֶת־יְהֹוָ֑ה כִּֽי־כוּלָּם֩ יֵֽדְע֨וּ אוֹתִ֜י לְמִקְּטַנָּ֚ם וְעַד־גְּדוֹלָם֙ נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֔ה כִּ֚י אֶסְלַח֙ לַֽעֲו‍ֹנָ֔ם וּלְחַטָּאתָ֖ם לֹ֥א אֶזְכָּר־עֽוֹד:

Jewish people who subscribe to the leaven of the Pharisees (rejecting Yeshua Jesus as Messiah) cling to Torah when Jeremiah clearly stated that you broke that covenant and it will be replaced with the new covenant of forever forgiveness (as opposed to temporal forgiveness under the Law when Temple sacrifices are offered... which could not be offered for 1900+ years now).

The identity of HaShem Adonai is Yeshua Jesus and he lives in us through his Spirit in our hearts.

 

[Matthias]

351 prophecies in Tanakh that Yeshua fulfilled

Let's get into the nitty gritty, shall we?

Yirimyahu 31:30-33 (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

30 Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, and I will form a covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, a new covenant.		להִנֵּ֛ה יָמִ֥ים בָּאִ֖ים נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֑ה וְכָֽרַתִּ֗י אֶת־בֵּ֧ית יִשְׂרָאֵ֛ל וְאֶת־בֵּ֥ית יְהוּדָ֖ה בְּרִ֥ית חֲדָשָֽׁה:
31 Not like the covenant that I formed with their forefathers on the day I took them by the hand to take them out of the land of Egypt, that they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, says the Lord.		לאלֹ֣א כַבְּרִ֗ית אֲשֶׁ֚ר כָּרַ֙תִּי֙ אֶת־אֲבוֹתָ֔ם בְּיוֹם֙ הֶֽחֱזִיקִ֣י בְיָדָ֔ם לְהֽוֹצִיאָ֖ם מֵאֶ֖רֶץ מִצְרָ֑יִם אֲשֶׁר־הֵ֜מָּה הֵפֵ֣רוּ אֶת־בְּרִיתִ֗י וְאָֽנֹכִ֛י בָּעַ֥לְתִּי בָ֖ם נְאֻם־יְהֹוָֽה:
32 For this is the covenant that I will form with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will place My law in their midst and I will inscribe it upon their hearts, and I will be their God and they shall be My people.		לבכִּ֣י זֹ֣את הַבְּרִ֡ית אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶכְרֹת֩ אֶת־בֵּ֨ית יִשְׂרָאֵ֜ל אַֽחֲרֵ֨י הַיָּמִ֚ים הָהֵם֙ נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֔ה נָתַ֚תִּי אֶת־תּֽוֹרָתִי֙ בְּקִרְבָּ֔ם וְעַל־לִבָּ֖ם אֶכְתֳּבֶ֑נָּה וְהָיִ֚יתִי לָהֶם֙ לֵֽאלֹהִ֔ים וְהֵ֖מָּה יִֽהְיוּ־לִ֥י לְעָֽם:
33 And no longer shall one teach his neighbor or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.		לגוְלֹ֧א יְלַמְּד֣וּ ע֗וֹד אִ֣ישׁ אֶת־רֵעֵ֜הוּ וְאִ֚ישׁ אֶת־אָחִיו֙ לֵאמֹ֔ר דְּע֖וּ אֶת־יְהֹוָ֑ה כִּֽי־כוּלָּם֩ יֵֽדְע֨וּ אוֹתִ֜י לְמִקְּטַנָּ֚ם וְעַד־גְּדוֹלָם֙ נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֔ה כִּ֚י אֶסְלַח֙ לַֽעֲו‍ֹנָ֔ם וּלְחַטָּאתָ֖ם לֹ֥א אֶזְכָּר־עֽוֹד:

Jewish people who subscribe to the leaven of the Pharisees (rejecting Yeshua Jesus as Messiah) cling to Torah when Jeremiah clearly stated that you broke that covenant and it will be replaced with the new covenant of forever forgiveness (as opposed to temporal forgiveness under the Law when Temple sacrifices are offered... which could not be offered for 1900+ years now).

The identity of HaShem Adonai is Yeshua Jesus and he lives in us through his Spirit in our hearts.

The messiah (Jesus) is adoni, not adonai (Psalm 110:1).

 

[MonoBiblical]

Bs"d

That's weird, nobody has seen him.

No one was interested. The early church was rescued like Enoch, and the rest of Israel was slaughtered by Romans. Those were the last days.

 

[BlessedPeace]

He's baaaaack!
And revived his old thread.

 

[PanInVietnam]

this thread was a long read and learned many stuff from Eliyahu. I will pass this link to the Vietnamese friend who tries to bring me into his church.

 

[Matthias]

this thread was a long read and learned many stuff from Eliyahu. I will pass this link to the Vietnamese friend who tries to bring me into his church.

Welcome to the forum.

I presume that the friend who tries to bring you into his church believes Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah. If he does, none of what @Eliyahu613 wrote is likely to persuade him to stop believing. Your friend would have to reject the New Testament. What then will he do with the Hebrew Bible? Will he reject it too? If he does, where will that leave him? Are you hoping, perhaps, to bring him to your place of worship?

With the New Testament we are reading and watching a 1st century Jewish controversy - Jews who don’t believe a particular Jew is the promised Messiah vs. Jews who do believe a particular Jew is the Messiah.

With my friend Eliyahu, you’re reading his Jewish witness against the Jewish witness of the New Testament.

You’re choosing a side in the 1st century Jew vs. Jew fight. Everyone must. My friend switched sides. He’s all in now against the Jew who is now sitting at the right hand of the God of Israel. You should share that with your Vietnamese friend.

 

[PanInVietnam]

my vietnamese friend i believe is non standard Mr. J of the New testament. how should i put it... he told me Mr. J returned as a Korean man in korea some 19xx (forgotten the year but told me the church name is church of god written in the new testament). i was a little confused and not knowing what Mr. J is about (heard from few places here and there and didnt recall this J is from south korea...).

one thing for sure he flip the bible like professional and told me the bible is coded and not any average joe can 'decode' and know it's true message. Immediately i think something is wrong about him so i told him i will research myself and respond to his invitation later.

some of my other friends (different camp?) told me different things and teachings from the new testament and i am even more confused

at least from what i have read (for sure in a short time here and google-work before here) from Eliyahu has depth in his work and i am also double checking from other sources to be open.

if i survived all these religious group (Buddha, traditions, Islam, Christianity, taoism etc) until now, few more months doesnt make a difference.

i am a 'do good get good reward and do bad get punishment' kind of people. joining a religious 'club' isnt a rushing task for me right now. and amazingly see catholic, islam, samaria, Christianity has the common root.

surprised to learned that in the israel history or traditions has a 'divine character' in their culture (like kings or legends - humans - started some holiday or traditions) and i am not sure if is the only culture has a divine character or some other culture also has it...

chinese and vietnamese traditions has none but usually from human being 'transformed' into divinity after thousands years of 'good work or trainings'.

if there is a Creator, should be fair and justice, right?

 

[Matthias]

my vietnamese friend i believe is non standard Mr. J of the New testament. how should i put it... he told me Mr. J returned as a Korean man in korea some 19xx (forgotten the year but told me the church name is church of god written in the new testament). i was a little confused and not knowing what Mr. J is about (heard from few places here and there and didnt recall this J is from south korea...).

one thing for sure he flip the bible like professional and told me the bible is coded and not any average joe can 'decode' and know it's true message. Immediately i think something is wrong about him so i told him i will research myself and respond to his invitation later.

some of my other friends (different camp?) told me different things and teachings from the new testament and i am even more confused

at least from what i have read (for sure in a short time here and google-work before here) from Eliyahu has depth in his work and i am also double checking from other sources to be open.

if i survived all these religious group (Buddha, traditions, Islam, Christianity, taoism etc) until now, few more months doesnt make a difference.

i am a 'do good get good reward and do bad get punishment' kind of people. joining a religious 'club' isnt a rushing task for me right now. and amazingly see catholic, islam, samaria, Christianity has the common root.

surprised to learned that in the israel history or traditions has a 'divine character' in their culture (like kings or legends - humans - started some holiday or traditions) and i am not sure if is the only culture has a divine character or some other culture also has it...

chinese and vietnamese traditions has none but usually from human being 'transformed' into divinity after thousands years of 'good work or trainings'.

if there is a Creator, should be fair and justice, right?

Thank you for providing additional information about your Vietnamese friend. There’s a lot to process in your post. I’d like to focus on the question you ended your post with: “If there is a creator, should be fair and justice, right?”

@Eliyahu613 believes that there is a creator. Do you?

 

[Debp]

Your messiah has come. If you want to know more about him I suggest you look here: About • Jews for Jesus

Correct, the Messiah, Jesus Christ has come and will come again.

@PanInVietnam Please note that most Jewish people reject Jesus Christ as Messiah.

But there are some Jewish people coming to believe in Jesus Christ as their Messiah.

See testimony below of a Jewish believer in Jesus Christ (Yashua).

Bs"d

If somebody claims to be the messiah, then he has to fulfill the messianic prophecies. If he doesn't do that, then we know he was not the messiah.

After all, everybody can claim he is the messiah.

There have been so many false messiahs already.....

And your messiah didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies, therefore he was not the messiah.

Jesus Christ fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies of the coming Messiah....even to His birthplace of Bethlehem in Israel.

@PanInVietnam The following link has a chart of Old Testament prophecies that Jesus Christ fulfilled.

List of Old Testament prophecies fulfilled by Jesus

Chart shows a list of Old Testament prophecies or predictions that were fulfilled by Jesus Christ the Messiah, showing the Bible passage and fulfillment

www.about-jesus.org

 

[Debp]

i am a 'do good get good reward and do bad get punishment' kind of people. joining a religious 'club' isnt a rushing task for me right now.

In Christianity we are not saved through our good deeds, although we should try to live godly lives.

We all have sinned...that is why we all need the Savior Jesus Christ.

God is holy so in order to be with God after we die, we need forgiveness of our sins through Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ takes our sins and gives us His imputed righteousness.

 

[PanInVietnam]

i think i am too new to know what's what at this moment and the information is too much to be digested by me in a short time. right now for me the biggest interested is to read and googled those i find interesting (too much too overwhelmed)... not to mention my 2 vietnamese friend's Mr. J from different source... i think i also came across a china chinese 'Mr. J' (not too much of information at the moment)

 

[PanInVietnam]

In Christianity we are not saved through our good deeds, although we should try to live godly lives.

We all have sinned...that is why we all need the Savior Jesus Christ.

God is holy so in order to be with God after we die, we need forgiveness of our sins through Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ takes our sins and gives us His imputed righteousness.

i do read that Noah is viewed as 'Righteous' by the creator and got his family saved by Noah's good deed?

 

[Scott Downey]

The messiah has come and as the angel Gabriel says,
26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; [e]blessed are you among women!”

29 But [f]when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was. 30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I [g]do not know a man?”

35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. 36 Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age; and this is now the sixth month for her who was called barren. 37 For with God nothing will be impossible.”

38 Then Mary said, “Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.

 

[Matthias]

i think i am too new to know what's what at this moment and the information is too much to be digested by me in a short time. right now for me the biggest interested is to read and googled those i find interesting (too much too overwhelmed)... not to mention my 2 vietnamese friend's Mr. J from different source... i think i also came across a china chinese 'Mr. J' (not too much of information at the moment)

You’re going to be overwhelmed by the thundering herd. My advice to you is to shut out the voices, take your time and continue reading the Bible.

 

[Debp]

i think i am too new to know what's what at this moment and the information is too much to be digested by me in a short time. right now for me the biggest interested is to read and googled those i find interesting (too much too overwhelmed)... not to mention my 2 vietnamese friend's Mr. J from different source... i think i also came across a china chinese 'Mr. J' (not too much of information at the moment)

When you say Mr. J, are you talking about Jesus Christ being Mr. J?

There are some cults (they deviate from traditional Christian doctrines). They mostly deny the divinity of Jesus Christ and require works to be saved....rather than works happening because we are saved.

Baptist Churches are usually good. Maybe find one and try listening to the preaching in order to learn more about Jesus Christ?