Ordain a Lady

[Jude Thaddeus]

That's not what is being discussed. Prophets and pastors,and preachers,are called by God to serve his church.

His church is the whole of those in Christ.
Romans 16 shows women served beside Paul in his churches.

Romans 16 makes no mention of women ordained as priests. Yes, they served Paul in his churches, but their function was not the same as ordained priests. With that said, where did Jesus learn His love and respect for women? The same as decent men today, from their mother. And it was women who first announced the Resurrection. Surely, that is noteworthy.

 

[BlessedPeace]

Tensions arise when the prophet thinks he/she has more authority than the pastor. They don't.

Most know that Prophets,preachers and pastors, are different offices of service in God's church.

Romans 16 makes no mention of women ordained as priests. Yes, they served Paul in his churches, but their function was not the same as ordained priests. With that said, where did Jesus learn His love and respect for women? The same as decent men today, from their mother. And it was women who first announced the Resurrection. Surely, that is noteworthy.

Of course Romans 16 doesn't refer to women being ordained as priests.

 

[Nancy]

Here you go .

The Canon of the Bible: Various councils, synods and canons

bible.ca

It isn't anti Pauline to recognize man's politics altered the scriptures.

So, still, how are we to KNOW this. Should we rip out all of Paul's epistles from our bibles? It's not that i do not personally dislike much of what he wrote, and I have zero problem with women pastors. I'm so back and forth on these Paul scriptures, but I'm not ready to just kick him under the bus. Not to mention that:
2Tim. 3 Verses 16 to 17
[16]" All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works".

So, my question stands.

 

[RedFan]

So, still, how are we to KNOW this. Should we rip out all of Paul's epistles from our bibles? It's not that i do not personally dislike much of what he wrote, and I have zero problem with women pastors. I'm so back and forth on these Paul scriptures, but I'm not ready to just kick him under the bus. Not to mention that:
2Tim. 3 Verses 16 to 17
[16]" All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works".

So, my question stands.

I wouldn't fret over 2 Tim 3:16-17. Paul wasn't referring to his own writings when he used "scripture" here. He was referring to the OT.

 

[Aunty Jane]

“Founded in 1975, the Women’s Ordination Conference (WOC) is a grass-roots driven movement that promotes activism, dialogue, and prayerful witness to call for women’s ordination and gender equity in the Roman Catholic Church.”

This is a music video the WOC produced for the cause.

The lyric which caught my attention: ”Don’t listen to Saint Paul, ’Cuz I can lead the way.”

Setting aside that this a Roman Catholic fight, it is an issue that has come up and continues to come up in Protestant circles.

”Don’t listen to Saint Paul” is an argument which I don’t find persuasive.

Can that hurdle be cleared using scripture?

No respect shown for the church that they want to still be a part of?…that is crazy….!
Excommunicated…..no respect for Paul….no good thing to say about the Pope…are they really Catholic or do want to have their own church with their very own reformation?

The whole idea of women priests serving God on earth is not scriptural. In Israel only men could be priests and only from the tribe of Levi….did this make the other tribes want to start a revolution? It was ordained by God who would lead his people in worship. Women had a valuable role but it was not in teaching in the congregation. The headship arrangement was God’s and had to be respected. (1 Cor 11:3) Even Jesus had to respect God as his head.

The whole idea of “ordination” as in a “clergy and laity” class, is not of Christian origin, and not a requirement for those taking the lead. Those men had to have spiritual qualifications, not just educational ones requiring degrees and titles. The reason why is because there was no earthly priesthood in the first century Christian congregations. Those who were assigned in positions of service in those congregations (elders) were men only, and women had a share in the preaching work that Jesus assigned to all of his disciples.…this naturally included teaching their own children, and it was normal to have a lot of them.

Gender roles were always important to God, right from the beginning Adam and his wife had separate roles that would complement one another…..so there was no competition in the team work…..and when each knew their place, there was no friction or envy. All functioned smoothly.

The elect are chosen by God for a priesthood served in heaven, not on earth. Jesus said that they “will be priests of God” in heaven, not that they already were on earth. (Rev 20:6)

Once they leave their flesh and blood bodies behind, there is no gender in heaven….
Col 3:26-29….
”You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s offspring, heirs with reference to a promise.”

So to squabble over gender roles on earth is pointless. The chosen ones are from both sexes.

There is no ordination, no college degrees, no formal titles or positions of power….that is a throwback to Judaism.…...in Christianity, all are equals and in their choosing, the elect will not be treated any differently to other congregation members over whom they will rule as “kings and priests” one day.

Humility requires that we know our place, and are content to stay where God put us….

 

[Matthias]

No respect shown for the church that they want to still be a part of?…that is crazy….!
Excommunicated…..no respect for Paul….no good thing to say about the Pope…are they really Catholic or do want to have their own church with their very own reformation?

The whole idea of women priests serving God on earth is not scriptural. In Israel only men could be priests and only from the tribe of Levi….did this make the other tribes want to start a revolution? It was ordained by God who would lead his people in worship. Women had a valuable role but it was not in teaching in the congregation. The headship arrangement was God’s and had to be respected. (1 Cor 11:3) Even Jesus had to respect God as his head.

The whole idea of “ordination” as in a “clergy and laity” class, is not of Christian origin, and not a requirement for those taking the lead. Those men had to have spiritual qualifications, not just educational ones requiring degrees and titles. The reason why is because there was no earthly priesthood in the first century Christian congregations. Those who were assigned in positions of service in those congregations (elders) were men only, and women had a share in the preaching work that Jesus assigned to all of his disciples.…this naturally included teaching their own children, and it was normal to have a lot of them.

Gender roles were always important to God, right from the beginning Adam and his wife had separate roles that would complement one another…..so there was no competition in the team work…..and when each knew their place, there was no friction or envy. All functioned smoothly.

The elect are chosen by God for a priesthood served in heaven, not on earth. Jesus said that they “will be priests of God” in heaven, not that they already were on earth. (Rev 20:6)

Once they leave their flesh and blood bodies behind, there is no gender in heaven….
Col 3:26-29….
”You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s offspring, heirs with reference to a promise.”

So to squabble over gender roles on earth is pointless. The chosen ones are from both sexes.

There is no ordination, no college degrees, no formal titles or positions of power….that is a throwback to Judaism.…...in Christianity, all are equals and in their choosing, the elect will not be treated any differently to other congregation members over whom they will rule as “kings and priests” one day.

Humility requires that we know our place, and are content to stay where God put us….

Thanks. Now we wait to see if @BlessedPeace will accuse you of making it personal.

 

[Matthias]

I wouldn't fret over 2 Tim 3:16-17. Paul wasn't referring to his own writings when he used "scripture" here. He was referring to the OT.

Peter refers to Paul’s writings as scripture (2 Peter 3:16).

 

[RedFan]

Peter refers to Paul’s writings as scripture (2 Peter 3:16).

Well, the author of 2 Peter does. I am far from concluding that Simon Peter himself was that author. But my point stands. Paul was referring to the OT when he wrote to Timothy.

 

[Matthias]

Well, the author of 2 Peter does.

An important point to establish. There is no doubt about what the author said. There is no “But what if the author lived in the 21st century?” game to be played.

I am far from concluding that Simon Peter himself was that author.

I believe the author of 2 Peter is the Apostle Peter but, whether he is or he isn’t, the letter is still in the New Testament canon. I accept it as scripture and therefore binding.

But my point stands. Paul was referring to the OT when he wrote to Timothy.

Do you accept the point that what Paul wrote is scripture in light of his letters being identified as scripture in 2 Peter?

 

[RedFan]

Do you accept the point that what Paul wrote is scripture in light of his letters being identified as scripture in 2 Peter?

I accept that what Paul wrote is scripture. And I do so without the "light" of 2 Peter.

 

[Matthias]

I accept that what Paul wrote is scripture.

Excellent. The WOC is urging us, and all viewers of their video, not to listen to scripture.

And I do so without the "light" of 2 Peter.

Do you also accept that what the author of 2 Peter wrote is scripture?

 

[Matthias]

“The SBC should not be ‘making space’ for women pastors.

We should be calling them to repentance.

This isn’t a matter of ‘interpretative differences.‘ This is a question of sin vs. righteousness.

Tolerating women pastors is an immoral act of rebellion.”

(William Wolfe, Executive Director, Center for Baptist Leadership)

x.com

x.com

 

[Matthias]

“The same neo-liberal Baptist voices who were opposed to the Law Amendment are also voicing complaints about the IVF resolution.

What’s the connection?

A rejection of the creation order andXhristian anthropology.

In short, they’ve been deeply influenced by feminisim.”

(William Wolfe)

x.com

x.com

He’s talking about the feminist movement which is driving a segment of the SBC but it’s also the feminist movement that is driving the WOC.

This ”Don’t believe Paul because I can lead the way” campaign isn’t being driven by God or the Messiah. It’s being driven by the spiritual entity that is behind the feminist movement.



P.S.

“I had a dream as a girl” - The opening line of the WOC anti-Paul campaign song

The feminist movement says that it’s pro-woman but in actuality it’s anti-woman.

 

[Matthias]

Untrue.

I’m not the liar; Satan is.

And now you're evading responsibility.

I’m resisting the attack of the devil on my character. I’ll be vindicated by God and the Messiah.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

“Founded in 1975, the Women’s Ordination Conference (WOC) is a grass-roots driven movement that promotes activism, dialogue, and prayerful witness to call for women’s ordination and gender equity in the Roman Catholic Church.”

This is a music video the WOC produced for the cause.

The lyric which caught my attention: ”Don’t listen to Saint Paul, ’Cuz I can lead the way.”

Setting aside that this a Roman Catholic fight, it is an issue that has come up and continues to come up in Protestant circles.

”Don’t listen to Saint Paul” is an argument which I don’t find persuasive.

Can that hurdle be cleared using scripture?

On this topic, an Eastern Orthodox Bishop wrote a paper that very elaborately and articulately states my basic position of being against this.


"...The Church today claims to be ‘apostolic’. This means that its faith is based upon the testimony of Christ’s eyewitnesses, that its ministry is Christ’s and that it is defined in terms of the unique, unrepeatable act of God, accomplished in Christ once . . . No new revelation can complete or replace what Jesus Christ did ‘when the fullness of the time was come’ (Gal. 4.4). The Gospel of Christ cannot be written anew because ‘the fullness of time’ came then and not at any other time. There is a sense in which all Christians must become Christ’s contemporaries. Therefore, the very ‘historical conditioning’ which characterizes the Gospel of Christ is, in a sense, normative for us. The twentieth century is not an absolute norm; the apostolic age is.(11)"

Man, Woman, and the Priesthood of Christ - Women Priests

by Kallistos Ware from Man, Woman, and Priesthood, pp. 68-90, edited by Peter Moore, SPCK London, 1978. Republished on our website with the necessary permissions. KALLISTOS WARE (b. 1934) studied at Magdalen College, Oxford, and is a member of the Monastic Brotherhood of St John the Theologian...

womenpriests.org

 

[BlessedPeace]

So, still, how are we to KNOW this. Should we rip out all of Paul's epistles from our bibles? It's not that i do not personally dislike much of what he wrote, and I have zero problem with women pastors. I'm so back and forth on these Paul scriptures, but I'm not ready to just kick him under the bus. Not to mention that:
2Tim. 3 Verses 16 to 17
[16]" All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works".

So, my question stands.

I don't read anyone in any thread seeking to kick Saul under the bus.

I think your question was answered in part.

If we accept that all Scripture is given by God,then we have to ask what business humans have convening councils to equivocate over texts? And to elect what of God's message qualifies for inclusion in a predetermined narrative afforded by determination of said councils.


Here's something to consider. First the questions.

Is God infallible and perfect in His knowledge?

(Yes)

If so, would a tome God wrote be imperfect?

Would man dare convene to act as editors?

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

I don't read anyone in any thread seeking to kick Saul under the bus.

I think your question was answered in part.

If we accept that all Scripture is given by God, then we have to ask what business humans have convening councils to equivocate over texts?

Without councils, there would be no Bible. Your position is illogical and self-defeating. You are cutting off the very limb you are sitting on.

 

[Triumph1300]

Romans 16 shows women served beside Paul in his churches.

Nobody disagrees with that.

This thread is about the function of Pastors.

 

[BlessedPeace]

Nobody disagrees with that.

This is about the function of Pastors.

Yes,it is. And women functioned in that early church as pastors before the term pastor was applied to our church.

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

Yes,it is. And women functioned in that early church as pastors before the term pastor was applied to our church.

But you have no biblical evidence to support your radical feminist approach. A deaconess is not a pastor. And pastor is the same as elder.

The term "pastor" is also interwoven with the biblical term "overseer," or "elder" - in the Greek, episkopos, or "bishop." We see this in St. Paul's farewell discourse to the elders of Ephesus:​

"Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son." (Acts 20:28)​

There is the connection: the "episkopoi" of the church at Ephesus have guardianship over "the flock" of God's people.​

Further, to be a "pastor" (shepherd, overseer, elder) is also to be an "ambassador" for Christ (c.f. 2 Cor. 5:18ff). There are no women episkopos "overseer," or "elder" anywhere in the N.T.