Wise Men

[Nephesh]

Would it ever occur to you that the devil is the greatest con artist in existence, and that he was there to witness what took place throughout the whole of human history……he can give his agents (witting or unwitting) all the information he wants to, and pretends to be “an angel of light”.
How would you know?……What they claim will not be what the Scriptures teach…..the details will not mesh with what the rest of the scriptures teach. There is nothing in the Bible to verify a thing this woman said.

Jesus has said that satan and his demons are no longer angels, and thus can no longer reflect God by means of bringing peace and joy, but rather perturbation and sorrow. That's how you know what's of a demon and what's of God. And, again, He has also said that you shall know one by its fruit and that an evil tree cannot produce good fruit. (The Gospels of Christ, The Gospel as Revealed to Me, or The Poem of the Man-God)

In addition to the unwavering certainty I've received from God, and the testimonies of those who've analyzed Maria Valtorta, as well as her literary works, and concluded her to be credible from a spiritual, historical, mathematical, astronomical, geographical, agricultural, cartographical, etc., standpoint, there's the following quote:

"Such a one will find an admirable guide and mentor in this monumental Work of Maria Valtorta. St. John wrote in his book: "There is much else that Jesus did. If all of it were put into writing, I do not think the world itself would contain all the books which would have been written" (Jn. 21:25). This major work of Maria Valtorta, The Poem of the Man-God (The Gospel As It Was Revealed To Me), is the gospel expanded, and with her other writings, is in perfect consonance with the Gospels...

Dated at Rome/Toronto, June 24, 2001
The Feast of the Nativity of St. John the Baptist and Precursor

Roman Danylak, S.T.L., J.U.D"

If God had wanted us to know the details, would he not have included them?

Jesus's apostle, John, wrote, "But there are also many other things which Jesus did, which, if they were written in detail, I expect that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written" (Jn. 21:25). This is why the four Gospels of Christ are incomplete, as is any book that comes from God, because no one book can contain complete knowledge, and thus there will be information found in one book that won't be in another. There are many truthful details lacking in the accounts of the Four Evangelists that are found in Maria Valtorta's, though all were spokespeople of God.

The information relayed to Maria Valtorta might well be an accurate depiction of the times, but what if the message was skewed, using the scant details provided in scripture, to embellish them and present a completely different story……one not in accord with what that scripture says, as her account is not In line with Matthew’s account, which was provided by the holy spirit, I do not believer her, even a little.

Which part(s) of her account, for example, do you think doesn't correspond with Matthew's?

The magi did not worship Jesus but as the New Catholic Bible says..”they paid him homage”.

The words "homage" and "worship" are synonymous.

The whole of Christendom has swallowed this lie, and given credence to a few duped astrologers who were clueless as to Satan’s attempt to use them to put the Christ child to death. The star that satan used is honored on the top of Christmas trees…yet it was the devil’s instrument of deception and death. How can you be so gullible?

You said, "The star was not sent by God but by satan," and that "If God had sent the star, it would have led them straight to Jesus." The star led the three Magi to the house in Bethlehem where the Messiah was (Matt. 2:9-11), just as the angels led the twelve shepherds to the stable just outside the town of Bethlehem where the Messiah was many months before (Lk. 2:15-16). Therefore, God, not satan, sent the star and angels. Additionally, after the Magi saw the Messiah, it was also God who warned them in a dream not to return to Herod, and they obeyed (Matt. 2:12).

 

[Nephesh]

@Nephesh - What you have said has nothing at all to do with Christianity. It isn't in the bible. Jesus does not need a 'spokesperson' he is quite good at communicating through his Holy Spirit. I don't know what sort of cult or sect you must belong to to believe such stuff but it definitely is a false gospel. And we are warned about those.

The Gospel as Revealed to Me, or The Poem of the Man-God, is an expansion of the four Gospels of Christ by Jesus through His spokesperson, Maria Valtorta. Since you accuse it of being a "false Gospel," please give examples according to Paul's definition of it which is to "distort the Gospel of Christ" (Gal. 1:7).

 

[Pearl]

The Poem of the Man-God is an expansion of the four Gospels of Christ by Jesus through His spokesperson, Maria Valtorta. Since you accuse it of being a "false Gospel," please give examples according to Paul's definition of it which is to "distort the Gospel of Christ" (Gal. 1:7).

Maria Valtorta wrote a fictitious poem. It is just speculation and supposition and not the word of God. It is just a made up story. Jesus has never needed another spokesperson apart from His Holy Spirit.

Over the years there have been many cults and sects pertaining to be Christians but the teachings they follow have been added on to what the bible teaches us and God does not like this mixture.

All people like Maria Valtorta do is to confuse people and deceive them into believing untruths. Read your bible, that is the only account of the life of Jesus you need.

 

[Nephesh]

Maria Valtorta wrote a fictitious poem. It is just speculation and supposition and not the word of God. It is just a made up story. Jesus has never needed another spokesperson apart from His Holy Spirit.

Over the years there have been many cults and sects pertaining to be Christians but the teachings they follow have been added on to what the bible teaches us and God doe not like this mixture.

All people like Maria Valtorta do is to confuse people and deceive them into believing untruths. Read your bible, that is the only account of the life of Jesus you need.

Jesus didn't need to do many things, yet He did them. Now, I have asked you to give examples in support of your accusation that The Gospel as Revealed to Me, or The Poem of the Man-God, is a false gospel, but all I see are more baseless accusations.

 

[RedFan]

The Gospel As It Was Revealed To Me, or The Poem of the Man-God, is an expansion of the four Gospels of Christ by Jesus through His spokesperson, Maria Valtorta.

And you know this HOW?

 

[Nephesh]

And you know this HOW?

I know that Maria Valtorta was Jesus's spokesperson thanks to Him Himself, and the professionals who've analyzed Maria, as well as her literary works, concluding her to be credible from a spiritual, historical, mathematical, astronomical, geographical, agricultural, cartographical, etc., standpoint. Below are a few results of these studies:

(i) The results from the mathematical analysis of Maria Valtorta's Work by Professor Emilio Matricciani and Dr. Liberato De Caro, where they concluded:

In conclusion, what do these findings mean? That Maria Valtorta is such a good writer to be able to modulate the linguistic parameters in so many different ways and as a function of character of the plot and type of literary text, so as to cover almost the entire range of the Italian literature? Or that visions and dictations really occurred and she was only a mystical, very intelligent and talented “writing tool”? Of course, no answer grounded in science can be given to the latter question.

(ii) The results from the astronomical and meteorological analysis of Maria Valtorta's Work by Professor Emilio Matricciani and Dr. Liberato De Caro, where they concluded:

It seems that she has written down observations and facts that really happened at the time of Jesus’ life, as a real witness of them would have done. The question arises, unsolved from a point of view exclusively rational, how all this is possible because what Maria Valtorta writes down cannot, in any way, be traced back to her fantasy or to her astronomical and meteorological knowledge. In conclusion, if from one hand the scientific inquire has evidenced all the surprising and unexpected results reported and discussed in this paper, on the other hand our actual scientific knowledge cannot readily explain how these results are possible.

(iii) In David Webster, M.Div.'s chapter "Proof by Geography and Topography and Archaeology" of A Summa and Encyclopedia to Maria Valtorta’s Extraordinary Work, he relates:

An additional line of incontrovertible evidence (which Valtorta was encouraged by Jesus to include for the benefit of “the difficult doctors” of the Church) deals with the vast amount of geographical, climatic, agricultural, historical, astronomical, and cartographical information given in her work. Authorities in these fields have verified the accuracy of what she has reported with appropriate astonishment. Valtorta accurately identifies this agricultural and climatic information that is often unique to Palestine with the appropriate calendar period which she often specifically identifies. Without any evidence of planning and with hardly any corrections, Valtorta ends up with a perfectly flowing 3½ year story line with Jesus appropriately in Jerusalem and Judea for Passover and Pentecost in all four spring seasons, and at the Tabernacles in all three fall seasons of His ministry. Valtorta shows Jesus to have traversed the land of Palestine from one end to another in at least six cycles (some 4,000 miles), ministering in some 350 named locations, including places in Palestine known only to specialized archaeologists. Not once, however, does she have Jesus (or any one of the other 500 characters) in a place inconsistent with either the story line or distance or timing necessities.

(iv) In professional engineer Jean-François Lavère's The Valtorta Enigma, he writes:

The work [The Poem of the Man-God] overflows with exact data from the viewpoint of history, topography, architecture, geography, ethnology, chronology, etc. Furthermore, Maria Valtorta often provides precise details known only by some scholars, and in certain cases, she even records details totally unknown at the time she recorded them, and which archeology, history, or science have later confirmed.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I know that Maria Valtorta was Jesus's spokesperson from a spiritual, historical, mathematical, astronomical, geographical, agricultural, cartographical, etc., standpoint, thanks to Him, further validated by the professionals in the aforementioned fields who have analyzed and tested the credibility of Maria Valtorta personally and her literary works.

You really don’t know that….you believe that…..big difference.

“Thanks to Him” you say?…..do you really know who ”Him” is? Can the devil not deceive you to believe what is not true? He is a liar and a deceiver with thousand of years of experience……he can “blind“ people spiritually so that the truth will appear to be lies and the lies, truth. (2 Cor 4:3-4)

The things Maria Valtorta reports can have a very sinister source.…designed to promote and to keep the devil’s lies alive in those gullible enough to fall for this kind of stuff. (2 Thess 2:9-12)

If what you believe is not from God’s word…it cannot be trusted.

 

[Cassandra]

“Thanks to Him” you say?…..do you really know who ”Him” is? Can the devil not deceive you to believe what is not true? He is a liar and a deceiver with thousand of years of experience……he can “blind“ people spiritually so that the truth will appear to be lies and the lies, truth. (2 Cor 4:3-4)

Yeppers!! Satan and his angels are well aware of all of the stuff that happened during Jesus' lifetime. It would be easy for them to say what happened. Mix some truth with error. That's the game.

 

[Nephesh]

Yeppers!! Satan and his angels are well aware of all of the stuff that happened during Jesus' lifetime. It would be easy for them to say what happened. Mix some truth with error. That's the game.

Refer back to post #28.

 

[RedFan]

I know that Maria Valtorta was Jesus's spokesperson thanks to Him Himself

Tell us the details of your personal revelation on this. Did you fall off a horse at the time?

 

[Nephesh]

Tell us the details of your personal revelation on this. Did you fall off a horse at the time?

By God's Grace through faith, I believe that The Gospel as Revealed to Me, or The Poem of the Man-God, is an expansion of the four Gospels of Christ, further validated by the professionals who've analyzed Maria, as well as her literary works, concluding her to be credible from a spiritual, historical, mathematical, astronomical, geographical, agricultural, cartographical, etc., standpoint. Refer back to post #26 to read a few of the results of these studies.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jesus has said that satan and his demons are no longer angels, and thus can no longer reflect God by means of bringing peace and joy, but rather perturbation and sorrow. That's how you know what's of a demon and what's of God. And, again, He has also said that you shall know one by its fruit and that an evil tree cannot produce good fruit. (The Gospels of Christ, The Gospel as Revealed to Me, or The Poem of the Man-God)

Well, I guess then that, as an “angel of light”, satan does not have the ability to deceive by presenting himself to be the very opposite to what he is......what is his “angel of light” masquerade for then?...or shouldn’t we ask?
What “fruit” is demonstrated if this woman is a promoter of Catholic doctrine which finds no support in the scriptures at all? Who is the author of her information? If she presents the magi as being sent by God, then she is a liar. Her “details” are designed to further an old deception.

In addition to the unwavering certainty I've received from God, and the testimonies of those who've analyzed Maria Valtorta, as well as her literary works, and concluded her to be credible from a spiritual, historical, mathematical, astronomical, geographical, agricultural, cartographical, etc., standpoint, there's the following quote:

"Such a one will find an admirable guide and mentor in this monumental Work of Maria Valtorta. St. John wrote in his book: "There is much else that Jesus did. If all of it were put into writing, I do not think the world itself would contain all the books which would have been written" (Jn. 21:25). This major work of Maria Valtorta, The Poem of the Man-God (The Gospel As It Was Revealed To Me), is the gospel expanded, and with her other writings, is in perfect consonance with the Gospels...

Dated at Rome/Toronto, June 24, 2001
The Feast of the Nativity of St. John the Baptist and Precursor

Roman Danylak, S.T.L., J.U.D"

And you think quoting a Catholic bishop gifted in computer studies is going to add any weight to Maria’s testimony? Only Catholics believe other Catholics.....everyone else it seems has thrown off the shackles that the church left when the Reformation took place. Luther really started something......and he was a Catholic priest. Since he was privy to Scripture, he alone was in a position to do something about the abuses he was witnessing. Ordinary people were not permitted to own or read scripture, especially in their own language.
It’s a shame more Catholics didn’t listen to him....he was trying to clean up a corrupted church.

Jesus's apostle, John, wrote, "But there are also many other things which Jesus did, which, if they were written in detail, I expect that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written" (Jn. 21:25). This is why the four Gospels of Christ are incomplete, as is any book that comes from God, because no one book can contain complete knowledge, and thus there will be information found in one book that won't be in another. There are many truthful details lacking in the accounts of the Four Evangelists that are found in Maria Valtorta's, though all were spokespeople of God.

Isn’t that something that we can be grateful for...? If every detail of everything Jesus did and said was committed to Scripture, I image that a large truck would be needed to transport it around...?
It’s a nice size, concise, and with everything we need to know....just not everything we want to know.....but we humans never learn, do we? It’s as old as Eve in the garden of Eden, wanting something that God never gave her.
When she took it for herself and tempted her husband as well, they threw the whole human race under the bus. (Rom 5:12) Sometimes what we need to know is enough.

Which part(s) of her account, for example, do you think doesn't correspond with Matthew's?

The parts that portray the magi as sent from God.....he would never send worshippers of false gods to honor his son. Why would he?
What transpired from their being guided by the star to Jerusalem instead of Bethlehem? Herod got wind of a new “King of the Jews” and set about murdering infants in an attempt to have this future king eliminated from contention to the kingship, which he had reserved for his own sons.

Would God have been responsible for all those innocent deaths? Maria seems to think so....

The words "homage" and "worship" are synonymous.

No not synonymous......the meaning of the words in both Hebrew and Greek denote kissing the hand or bowing in respect to someone of superior rank.....a common practice in Bible times.....when rendered to God, it is worship, but when rendered to a human it is obeisance. Jesus was a man. 100% human or he could not have redeemed the human race.
I have seen people kissing the hand of the pope....are they worshipping him?

You said, "The star was not sent by God but by satan," and that "If God had sent the star, it would have led them straight to Jesus." The star led the three Magi to the house in Bethlehem where the Messiah was (Matt. 2:9-11)

It would not have led them to Herod first.....if God sent them there then he is ultimately responsible for the deaths of all those babies. Since it led them to Jesus only after Herod had conspired to find him in order to do away with him....the star was NOT from God.

just as the angels led the twelve shepherds to the stable just outside the town of Bethlehem where the Messiah was many months before (Lk. 2:15-16). Therefore, God, not satan, sent the star and angels.

He sent the angels to Jewish shepherds (where does it give a number of either the shepherds or the magi?) .....he did not send Babylonian astrologers to an evil and murderous king......can you give me a reason why he would do that, knowing what would happen? Is he a baby killer?

Additionally, after the Magi saw the Messiah, it was also God who warned them in a dream not to return to Herod, and they obeyed (Matt. 2:12).

You do know what a dupe is, I assume?
Since they were warned by God NOT to go back to Herod, that in itself should show you that he never sent them to Jerusalem in the first place....satan did.

 

[Nephesh]

He sent the angels to Jewish shepherds.....he did not send Babylonian astrologers to an evil and murderous king......

.....he would never send worshippers of false gods to honor his son.

It would not have led them to Herod first.....if God sent them there then he is ultimately responsible for the deaths of all those babies. Since it led them to Jesus only after Herod had conspired to find him in order to do away with him....the star was NOT from God.

Since they were warned by God NOT to go back to Herod, that in itself should show you that he never sent them to Jerusalem in the first place....satan did.

The Koine Greek word used in verses Matt. 2:2;8;11 is "προσκυνέω" (proskyneō), and as you can see below, homage and worship are synonymous. Context in any given instance is how we know whether one's acts of homage/worship are to a deity or not.

Bill Mounce's Greek Dictionary

Forms of the word
Dictionary: προσκυνέω
Greek transliteration: proskyneō
Simplified transliteration: proskyneo

Numbers
Strong's number: 4352
GK Number: 4686

Statistics
Frequency in New Testament: 60
Morphology of Biblical Greek Tag: cv-
Gloss: to worship, pay homage, show reverence; to kneel down (before)
Definition: to do reverence, or homage by kissing the hand; in NT to do reverence or homage by prostration, Mt. 2:2, 8, 11; 20:20; Lk. 4:7; 24:52; to pay divine homage, worship, adore, Mt. 4:10; Jn. 4:20, 21; Heb. 1:6; to bow one's self in adoration, Heb. 11:21

• The race(s) of the Magi are not mentioned in the Gospels of Christ, and thus your assertion that they were Babylonians who worshiped false gods is unfounded

• The Magi said that the King of the Jew's star appeared to them (Matt. 2:2)

• The Magi informed King Herod that they had come to worship the King of the Jews (Matt. 2:2;11)

• The Magi offered gifts to the King of the Jews (Matt. 2:11):

Gold — which befits a king to possess
Frankincense — which befits God
Myrrh — a burial spice

• The Magi obeyed God in not returning to Herod (Matt. 2:12)

• Despite the Magi having stopped to seek an audience with King Herod (Matt. 2:1), they continued being led to Jesus, and satan wouldn't lead anyone to Jesus, so that they could offer gifts, much less worship Him, whether as an earthly king or as God.

For these reasons, satan couldn't have sent the star. King Herod, of his own free will, lied to the Magi telling them to return and tell him where the King of the Jews is, so that he may go and "worship" him as well. When the Magi did not return, King Herod, of his own free will, ordered the killing of all the young male children in Bethlehem, thereby fulfilling the prophecy of Jeremiah (31:15). God's foreknowledge and allowance of this evil act makes Him no more "responsible" than of any other evil act that He has foreseen and allowed. God gave man a free will, to do good or evil, because there is no merit in coercion.

Isn’t that something that we can be grateful for...? If every detail of everything Jesus did and said was committed to Scripture, I image that a large truck would be needed to transport it around...?
It’s a nice size, concise, and with everything we need to know....just not everything we want to know.....but we humans never learn, do we? It’s as old as Eve in the garden of Eden, wanting something that God never gave her.
When she took it for herself and tempted her husband as well, they threw the whole human race under the bus. (Rom 5:12) Sometimes what we need to know is enough

On April 28th, 1947, Jesus gave His seven reasons for why He expanded on the four Gospels, etc. Below is an excerpt:

"And if I wanted to take pleasure in restoring the picture of My Divine Charity as a restorer of mosaics does replacing the tesserae damaged or missing, reinstating themosaic in its complete beauty, and I have decided to do it in this century in which mankind is hurling itself towards the Abyss of darkness and horror, can you forbid Me from doing so? Can you perhaps say that you do not need it, you whose spirits are dull, weak, deaf to lights, voices and invitations from Above?

You ought really to bless Me for increasing with new lights the light that you have and that is no longer sufficient for you to "see" your Savior. To see the Way, the Truth and the Life, and feel that spiritual emotion of the just of My time rise in you, attaining through this knowledge a renewal of your spirits in love, that would be your salvation, because it is an ascent towards perfection.

I do not say you are "dead", but sleeping, drowsy. Like plants during their winter sleep. The divine Sun gives you its refulgence. Awake and bless the Sun that gives you itself, receive it with joy that It may warm you, from the surface to deep inside you, it may rouse you and cover you with flowers and fruits.

Rise. Come to My Gift." (The Gospel as Revealed to Me, or The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. V)

 

[Aunty Jane]

The Koine Greek word used in verses Matt. 2:2;8;11 is "προσκυνέω" (proskyneō), and as you can see below, homage and worship are synonymous. Context in any given instance is how we know whether one's acts of homage/worship are to a deity or not.

Yes....”proskyneō” is rendered “pay him homage” in the following Catholic Bibles....

NCB...”after which he sent them on to Bethlehem, saying: “Go forth and search diligently for the child. When you have found him, bring me word, so that I can go and pay him homage.”

NRSVCE....”Then he sent them to Bethlehem, saying, “Go and search diligently for the child; and when you have found him, bring me word so that I may also go and pay him homage.”

And the Douay uses the term “adore”.....”And sending them into Bethlehem, said: Go and diligently inquire after the child, and when you have found him, bring me word again, that I also may come to adore him.”
I can adore my children without worshipping them....so not necessarily synonymous.

It seems as if these Catholic translations got it right.....are you arguing with your own Bible?

You “pay homage” as a mark of respect and honor to a human. Jesus was a human. If he was not 100% human, he could not have redeemed mankind. Do you not know how redemption works?

The race(s) of the Magi are not mentioned in the Gospels of Christ, and thus your assertion that they were Babylonians who worshiped false gods is unfounded.

Firstly, they saw “his star in the East”......East of Jerusalem is Babylon. Were the Babylonians interested in stars? Yes! They were heavily into astrology which was forbidden to Jews. (Deut 18:9-12) The very fact that they are called “magi” indicates their origIn, as the Babylonians were practices of magical arts. “Magi” is where the word “magic” comes from. God’s people were forbidden to practice magic.

The Jewish shepherds were not sent a star, but were personally visited by angels to inform them of Christ’s birth.....why would God tell pagan astrologers about the birth of his son?...knowing that it would result in untold pain and grief over the deaths of innocent babies and toddlers? It makes no sense.

The Magi said that the King of the Jew's star appeared to them (Matt. 2:2)

Yes. Astrology. Jews were not followers of stars......especially ones identified as belonging to any particular person. Astrology foretells the future by the stars. Since the shepherds were within walking distance of Bethlehem, and went to see this special child.....why would God tell pagans in a foreign land that a new “king of the Jews” was born?...and then lead them to a murderous king and risk his life? They came by camel did they not? Isn’t that what is depicted in all those nativity scenes? It was a long journey. Jesus was by then, perhaps a toddler, living in a house by the time they arrived.

The Magi informed King Herod that they had come to worship the King of the Jews (Matt. 2:2;11)

No sorry.....they came to honor him as a new king.....apparently it was their custom to bring gifts to royal children...not uncommon in Bible times. There was no worship involved. They had a multitude of their own gods to worship.

The Magi offered gifts to the King of the Jews (Matt. 2:11):

Yes they did....to a human “king of the Jews”.

Gold — which befits a king to possess
Frankincense — which befits God
Myrrh — a burial spIce.

Two of the gift items that the astrologers offered were aromatic spices. In Bible times these were as precious as gold.
Spices such as myrrh and frankincense came from trees and bushes that grew in desert areas stretching from southern Arabia to Somalia in Africa. To keep the lucrative trade to themselves the Arabians told tall tales of frightening creatures that lived in these trees, but it was just a ruse to keep their prices high. Once the jig was up, they lost their monopoly.
The magi’s gifts were a reflection of the times, as today the value of spices bears no comparison to gold. And we would hardly consider spices suitable gifts for a king. Yet, millions of people around the world continue to use them in perfumes and medicines and, of course, to add flavor and zest to their food.

The Magi obeyed God in not returning to Herod (Matt. 2:12)

They were dupes...unwittingly used by the devil and deceived by him in an elaborate plot to have Jesus killed before he could grow up and offer his perfect, sinless life to redeem mankind.

For these reasons, satan couldn't have sent the star. King Herod, of his own free will, lied to the Magi telling them to return and tell him where the King of the Jews is, so that he may go and "worship" him as well. When the Magi did not return, King Herod, of his own free will, ordered the killing of all the young male children in Bethlehem, thereby fulfilling the prophecy of Jeremiah (31:15). God's foreknowledge and allowance of this evil act makes Him no more "responsible" than of any other evil act that He has foreseen and allowed. God gave man a free will, to do good or evil, because there is no merit in coercion.

Your reasoning is coloured by myths. The truth undoes those myths. Stan is a liar and you have fallen for an ancient one.

On April 28th, 1947, Jesus gave His seven reasons for why He expanded on the four Gospels,

Tell me please, what is accomplished by the inclusion of Maria’s so called details? Does she provide earth shattering information that would change the way we think about what she wrote? Or is she merely perpetuating an old lie?

You are free to believe as you wish, but promoting this woman as some kind of saint who received her information from God is ridiculous to anyone but easily fooled and ignorant people, who are thoroughly hoodwinked by an apostate church.

 

[Jack]

"Believe in Jesus Christ to be saved and thus all people will trust in Christ Jesus and go to Heaven."

Satan LOVES it when his messengers convince people that there is no everlasting Hell!

Matthew 25:41
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Jack]

Yes....”proskyneō” is rendered “pay him homage” in the following Catholic Bibles....

NCB...”after which he sent them on to Bethlehem, saying: “Go forth and search diligently for the child. When you have found him, bring me word, so that I can go and pay him homage.”

NRSVCE....”Then he sent them to Bethlehem, saying, “Go and search diligently for the child; and when you have found him, bring me word so that I may also go and pay him homage.”

And the Douay uses the term “adore”.....”And sending them into Bethlehem, said: Go and diligently inquire after the child, and when you have found him, bring me word again, that I also may come to adore him.”
I can adore my children without worshipping them....so not necessarily synonymous.

It seems as if these Catholic translations got it right.....are you arguing with your own Bible?

You “pay homage” as a mark of respect and honor to a human. Jesus was a human. If he was not 100% human, he could not have redeemed mankind. Do you not know how redemption works?


Firstly, they saw “his star in the East”......East of Jerusalem is Babylon. Were the Babylonians interested in stars? Yes! They were heavily into astrology which was forbidden to Jews. (Deut 18:9-12) The very fact that they are called “magi” indicates their origIn, as the Babylonians were practices of magical arts. “Magi” is where the word “magic” comes from. God’s people were forbidden to practice magic.

The Jewish shepherds were not sent a star, but were personally visited by angels to inform them of Christ’s birth.....why would God tell pagan astrologers about the birth of his son?...knowing that it would result in untold pain and grief over the deaths of innocent babies and toddlers? It makes no sense.


Yes. Astrology. Jews were not followers of stars......especially ones identified as belonging to any particular person. Astrology foretells the future by the stars. Since the shepherds were within walking distance of Bethlehem, and went to see this special child.....why would God tell pagans in a foreign land that a new “king of the Jews” was born?...and then lead them to a murderous king and risk his life? They came by camel did they not? Isn’t that what is depicted in all those nativity scenes? It was a long journey. Jesus was by then, perhaps a toddler, living in a house by the time they arrived.

No sorry.....they came to honor him as a new king.....apparently it was their custom to bring gifts to royal children...not uncommon in Bible times. There was no worship involved. They had a multitude of their own gods to worship.

Yes they did....to a human “king of the Jews”.

Two of the gift items that the astrologers offered were aromatic spices. In Bible times these were as precious as gold.
Spices such as myrrh and frankincense came from trees and bushes that grew in desert areas stretching from southern Arabia to Somalia in Africa. To keep the lucrative trade to themselves the Arabians told tall tales of frightening creatures that lived in these trees, but it was just a ruse to keep their prices high. Once the jig was up, they lost their monopoly.
The magi’s gifts were a reflection of the times, as today the value of spices bears no comparison to gold. And we would hardly consider spices suitable gifts for a king. Yet, millions of people around the world continue to use them in perfumes and medicines and, of course, to add flavor and zest to their food.

They were dupes...unwittingly used by the devil and deceived by him in an elaborate plot to have Jesus killed before he could grow up and offer his perfect, sinless life to redeem mankind.

Your reasoning is coloured by myths. The truth undoes those myths. Stan is a liar and you have fallen for an ancient one.

Tell me please, what is accomplished by the inclusion of Maria’s so called details? Does she provide earth shattering information that would change the way we think about what she wrote? Or is she merely perpetuating an old lie?

You are free to believe as you wish, but promoting this woman as some kind of saint who received her information from God is ridiculous to anyone but easily fooled and ignorant people, who are thoroughly hoodwinked by an apostate church.

Alas, the JW Bible says, Heb 1 Let all God's angels WORSHIP him!

Jesus is God!

 

[Nephesh]

satan is a liar...

I'll address the rest of your post later, but for now I'll repeat what refutes your most blasphemous claim: that satan sent the star of Bethlehem, since you didn't address it in your last post.

The Gospels of Christ were written in Koìne Greek, and the Koine Greek word used in verses Matt. 2:2;8;11 is "προσκυνέω" (proskyneō). Refer below to Ancient Greek dictionary:

Bill Mounce's Greek Dictionary

Forms of the word
Dictionary: προσκυνέω
Greek transliteration: proskyneō
Simplified transliteration: proskyneo

Numbers
Strong's number: 4352
GK Number: 4686

Statistics
Frequency in New Testament: 60
Morphology of Biblical Greek Tag: cv-
Gloss: to worship, pay homage, show reverence; to kneel down (before)
Definition: to do reverence, or homage by kissing the hand; in NT to do reverence or homage by prostration, Mt. 2:2, 8, 11; 20:20; Lk. 4:7; 24:52; to pay divine homage, worship, adore, Mt. 4:10; Jn. 4:20, 21; Heb. 1:6; to bow one's self in adoration, Heb. 11:21

• The Magi informed King Herod that they had come to worship the King of the Jews (Matt. 2:2;11)
• The Magi offered gifts to the King of the Jews (Matt. 2:11)

Despite the Magi having stopped to seek an audience with King Herod (Matt. 2:1), they continued being led to Jesus, but satan wouldn't lead anyone to Jesus, so that they could offer gifts, much less pay homage/worship Him, whether as an earthly king or as God. Therefore, satan couldn't have sent the star, but he's convinced people that he did, because as you rightly said, "he's a liar."

 

[Aunty Jane]

I'll address the rest of your post later, but for now I'll repeat what refutes your most blasphemous claim: that satan sent the star of Bethlehem, since you didn't address it in your last post.

The Gospels of Christ were written in Koìne Greek, and the Koine Greek word used in verses Matt. 2:2;8;11 is "προσκυνέω" (proskyneō). Refer below to Ancient Greek dictionary:



• The Magi informed King Herod that they had come to worship the King of the Jews (Matt. 2:2;11)
• The Magi offered gifts to the King of the Jews (Matt. 2:11)

Despite the Magi having stopped to seek an audience with King Herod (Matt. 2:1), they continued being led to Jesus, and satan wouldn't lead anyone to Jesus, so that they could offer gifts, much less pay homage/worship Him, whether as an earthly king or as God. Therefore, satan couldn't have sent the star, but he's convinced people to believe he did, because as you rightly said, "he's a liar."

You are merely rehashing....no point in continuing because it’s all been said.
We can allow the readers here to make up their own minds....

Do as you wish.....but you cannot now plead ignorance. Once you know the truth, you cannot ‘“unknow” it.

 

[Jack]

Do as you wish.....but you cannot now plead ignorance. Once you know the truth, you cannot ‘“unknow” it.

How ironic!

ONLY Jesus / God is "the first and the last" in the Bible!

Jesus is God!

 

[Nephesh]

You are merely rehashing....no point in continuing because it's all been said

False. In post #37, I repeated once an argument I had made for the first time in our discussion in post #33, because you had addressed every argument from post #33, except the one that refutes your belief that satan sent the star: satan wouldn't have led the Magi to Jesus, so that they could offer gifts, much less pay homage to/worship Him, whether as an earthly king or as God.