Who is the AntiChrist? (Identifying Him)

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Brakelite

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Third proposition: “The Supreme Pontiff is simply and absolutely over the universal Church, and over a general Council, so that he recognizes no judicial authority on earth over himself.” This is almost de fide, [necessary to be believed as a dogma of the faith] and is proved first of all from the two preceding points: for if the Pope is the head of the universal Church, even when it is gathered together at one time, and if the universal Church even gathered together at one time has no power by reason of its totality;[1] it follows that the Pope is over the Council, and over the Church, not the other way around.

It is proved by the second reason, based in Scripture: for all the names, ascribed to Christ in Scripture, from which it is determined that he is over the Church—those same names are ascribed to the Pontiff. [2] And first, Christ is the paterfamilias [male head of the household] in his own house, which is the Church. The Pope is the highest steward in the same house, that is, the household head in Christ’s place: Luke 12: “Who is the faithful and prudent dispenser, whom the Lord has set over his household, etc. Here by “dispenser,” or “steward” [oeconomus], as the Greek has it, they [the Fathers?] understand the Bishop. See Ambrose commenting on this passage, and Hilary, and Jerome in chap. 24 of Matthew where there is a similar statement. And although the Fathers do not speak expressly about the Roman Bishop, nonetheless that passage of Scripture undoubtedly means: as the particular Bishops are highest stewards in their Churches, so the Bishop of Rome is in the universal Church. Whence Ambrose on that passage of 1 Timothy 3: “That you may know how you ought to act in the house of God,” etc, says: “The house of God, he says, is called the Church, whose ruler today is Damasus.” [Damasus, as you no doubt know, was the Pope in Ambrose’s day.] And Chrysostom in book 2 of On the Priesthood around the beginning, talking about this same passage: “Who is a faithful slave,” etc., expounds it as being about Peter.

But that the highest steward is over the household, and cannot be judged or punished by it, is evident from this same passage. For the Lord says: “Whom the Lord has established over his household.” And in the same place: “If that slave should say in his heart, ‘My Lord is delaying his coming,’ and should begin to beat the slaves and the maids, to eat, to drink, and to get drunk, then the Lord of that slave will come in a day in which he is not looking, and will cut him up and allot his inheritance among the unfaithful.” (Luke 12:45-46) Here you see that the Lord preserves that slave for his own judgment, and does not hand him over to the judgment of the household. The custom of all households teaches the same thing; for there is no household in which it is allowed for the inferior members of the household (even gathered together at one time) to punish or expel the steward, even if he should be a really bad one—for that pertains only to the Lord of the whole household.

Another name of Christ is “Shepherd” [Pastor]. John 10: “I am the good shepherd,” etc. He shares this title [literally “communicates the same thing”] with Peter in the last chapter of John: Feed my sheep. He thus establishes that the shepherd is over the sheep, so that in no way he can be judged by them.

The third is: “Head of the body of the Church,” Eph. 4. He shares this title with Peter, as we find in the third act of the Council of Chalcedon, where the legates pronounce sentence on Dioscorus, and in the letter of the Council to Leo. Further it is against nature for the head to be ruled by the members and not rather to rule them, just as it is against nature that the members should cut off their own head, even if it should perhaps be gravely sick.

The fourth is “Husband,” or “spouse,” Eph. 5: “Husbands love your wives, just as also Christ loved the Church, and handed himself over for her,” etc. This same title applies to Peter, for in the general Council of Lyons, chapter 6 “Ubi periculum” [Where there is danger] regarding election, the Council says with regard to the election of the Roman Pontiff: “Let the useful and most necessary provision be hastened on the part of the whole world; thus may a spouse be given quickly to the Church.” But it is against the Apostle (Eph. 5) and against the order of nature, that the wife should be over the husband, and not rather be subject.

[1] I’ve translated this in a woodenly literal way, because without the previous section I can’t be sure what he means. I think he’s saying that the whole Church can’t have authority over itself.

[2] I’ve translated this “all the names, ascribed to Christ in Scripture, from which” rather than “all the names which are ascribed to Christ in Scripture, whence” in order to make it clear that Bellarmine is talking about a particular category of names. He is not saying without qualification that we can say anything about the Pope that we say about Christ. He’s talking about the names of Christ that indicate His authority over the Church.
Note the difference between what Bellarmine actually says when his quote is in its proper context. Far from claiming that the Pope is God, Bellarmine is here emphasizing how the Pope occupies the highest rank in the Church as its "high steward" and "shepherd" representing the pater-familias and the Good Shepherd, our Lord Jesus. Also, take notice how a single translation can change the whole meaning.

He is not saying without qualification that we can say anything about the Pope that we say about Christ. He’s talking about the names of Christ that indicate His authority over the Church.

Now answer my question I asked you 5 times.
That "highest rank' could very well be understood to mean, as vicar literally means, in place of Christ.. Instead of Christ... In the room of Christ. Yes?
 

Timtofly

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Yes, the whole wide world is aware that you're the word of god, and you alone.

Where can we come to worship you?

What did you say is the name of your cult? :D

Your claim is the classic trademark thereof.
Only a human stuck in the rut of human theology would call the Bible a cult.
 

Jude Thaddeus

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The answer to your question appears further below.

Your translation:

"All names which in the Scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope."
-On the Authority of the Councils, book 2, chapter 17

My quote:

All the names which in the Scripture are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” Robert Cardinal Bellarmine, De Conciliorum Auctoriatate (On the Authority of the Councils) Bk 2, chap. 17

Explain the difference.
Taking snippets out of context is unethical and dishonest. I already gave the context that you refuse to accept, so demanding I explain the difference just stupid.
:laughing:

If those executed under Valerian would have repudiated Bellarmine, they would indeed have been martyrs for repudiating blasphemy.
This statement makes no sense. Those executed under Valerian were faithful Catholics some 15 centuries before Bellarmine. Pagan emperors don't execute heretics, blasphemers or apostates. I don't think you understand what martyrdom means. Most of them were executed for refusing to pay homage to paganism. That was the test used by pagan Romans. St. Ignatius, the 4th bishop of Antioch, was thrown to the lions 2 centuries prior to Valerian, and you and your ilk can't even admit he was a Christian. You have no clue was martyrdom means.
If they would not have repudiated Bellarmine, they would have been co-apostates with him for approving blasphemy.
I've exposed your out-of-context quotes and answered your questions, which are not questions, they are false accusations. You haven't answered ANY of my questions since you jumped in to the middle of the thread. Now you demand that 2nd century martyrs were executed for failure to repudiate 18th century out-of-context snippets that does not appear anywhere in the catechism is unethical, dishonest and absurd.
Your "Jesuit futurism" that you called dogmatic was banned by the Church. Another point you ran from. It's a good example of ignorance and prejudice.
Lastly, your pope=anti-Christ is unbiblical even by Protestant standards.
 
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covenantee

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Taking snippets out of context is unethical and dishonest. I already gave the context that you refuse to accept, so demanding I explain the difference just stupid.
There's nothing more stupid than claiming a difference which exists only in your imagination.

Have your handlers approved? :laughing:
 

Jude Thaddeus

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There's nothing more stupid than claiming a difference which exists only in your imagination.
I never claimed a difference, you did, and then demand I prove it. You make no sense. You lost the debate with a false claim that you identify the first 4 centuries of Christianity with "0" evidence, and martyrs were blasphemers.
Have your handlers approved? :laughing:
I don't have "handlers", another childish insult.

pope=anti-Christ is built into your false doctrines.

Although the Antichrist is sometimes associated with figures like the “man of sin” (2 Thess. 2:3–10) and the beast of Revelation (Rev. 13:1– 18), there are only four passages in the New Testament that explicitly speak of the “antichrist”:
1 John 2:18,
John 2:22,
John 4:3, and
2 John 7.

To under- stand the role of the Antichrist, we must look to these passages.
  • According to them, the Antichrist “denies the Father and the Son” (1 John 2:22),
  • the “spirit of antichrist” “does not confess Jesus” (1 John 4:3),
  • and the Antichrist does “not acknowledge the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh” (2 John 7).
These passages indicate that the Antichrist denies the coming of Jesus in the flesh. This could be construed several ways:
(1) Jesus was a mere man and not God Incarnate (the early heresy known as Ebion- ism),
(2) the humanity of Jesus was only an illusion (the early heresy known as Docetism), or
(3) Jesus was not the Messiah (as in non- Christian Judaism).

None of these descriptions fit the popes, who have consistently maintained that Jesus was the Messiah, that he was God, and that he was fully God and fully man for 2000 years. Even a cursory reading of papal teaching provides abundant evidence for this. In fact, the popes have been among the most vigorous defenders of orthodoxy on these points.
The evidence is so extensive that it is amazing anyone could make the papal Antichrist claim, and its existence calls for an explanation, that covenantee refuses or is unable to do.

The ultimate explanation is one of necessity: Prior to the Protestant Reformation, it was universally recognized in Western Christendom that the Catholic Church was the Church of Christ, governed by the pope as the authentic representative of Christ. Critics of the papacy thus needed to provide an alternative explanation of what the pope’s role was and how he could achieve such prominence if he were not Christ’s representative. They, therefore, asserted that he was the arch-enemy of Christ, the Antichrist (Smalcald Articles 2:4:10, 14; Westminster Confession 25:6).
This may have been a polemically useful claim, but it does not fit the biblical data—a fact most Protestant scholars recognize today.

Covenantee thus needs to provide an alternative explanation of
1. what the pope’s role was and
2. how he could achieve such prominence if he were not Christ’s representative.

False histories doesn't cut it.
 
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covenantee

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I never claimed a difference, you did, and then demand I prove it.

pope=anti-Christ is built into your false doctrines.

Although the Antichrist is sometimes associated with figures like the “man of sin” (2 Thess. 2:3–10) and the beast of Revelation (Rev. 13:1– 18), there are only four passages in the New Testament that explicitly speak of the “antichrist”:
1 John 2:18,
John 2:22,
John 4:3, and
2 John 7.

To under- stand the role of the Antichrist, we must look to these passages.
  • According to them, the Antichrist “denies the Father and the Son” (1 John 2:22),
  • the “spirit of antichrist” “does not confess Jesus” (1 John 4:3),
  • and the Antichrist does “not acknowledge the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh” (2 John 7).
These passages indicate that the Antichrist denies the coming of Jesus in the flesh. This could be construed several ways:
(1) Jesus was a mere man and not God Incarnate (the early heresy known as Ebion- ism),
(2) the humanity of Jesus was only an illusion (the early heresy known as Docetism), or
(3) Jesus was not the Messiah (as in non- Christian Judaism).

None of these descriptions fit the popes, who have consistently maintained that Jesus was the Messiah, that he was God, and that he was fully God and fully man for 2000 years. Even a cursory reading of papal teaching provides abundant evidence for this. In fact, the popes have been among the most vigorous defenders of orthodoxy on these points.
The evidence is so extensive that it is amazing anyone could make the papal Antichrist claim, and its existence calls for an explanation, that covenantee refuses or is unable to do.

The ultimate explanation is one of necessity: Prior to the Protestant Reformation, it was universally recognized in Western Christendom that the Catholic Church was the Church of Christ, governed by the pope as the authentic representative of Christ. Critics of the papacy thus needed to provide an alternative explanation of what the pope’s role was and how he could achieve such prominence if he were not Christ’s representative. They, therefore, asserted that he was the arch-enemy of Christ, the Antichrist (Smalcald Articles 2:4:10, 14; Westminster Confession 25:6).
This may have been a polemically useful claim, but it does not fit the biblical data—a fact most Protestant scholars recognize today.
1 John 2:18
500 [e]
antichristos
ἀντίχριστος
antichrist
N-NMS
500 antíxristos (from 473 /antí, "opposite to, in place of" and 5547 /Xristós, "Christ") – properly, opposite to Christ; someone acting in place of (against) Christ; "Antichrist."

Exactly what Bellarmine described.

"All names which in the Scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope."
-On the Authority of the Councils, book 2, chapter 17

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Therefore according to Bellarmine, the Pope is:
Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace

So much for your "contexts". :laughing:
 

Jude Thaddeus

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1 John 2:18
500 [e]
antichristos
ἀντίχριστος
antichrist
N-NMS
500 antíxristos (from 473 /antí, "opposite to, in place of" and 5547 /Xristós, "Christ") – properly, opposite to Christ; someone acting in place of (against) Christ; "Antichrist."

Exactly what Bellarmine described.
That is a lie, as I repeatedly explained with context that you arrogantly deny.
"All names which in the Scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope."
-On the Authority of the Councils, book 2, chapter 17

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Therefore according to Bellarmine, the Pope is:
Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace

So much for your "contexts". :laughing:
But you don't quote Bellarmine saying that, you simply assert it with no evidence. Perhaps we should do a poll and see how many agree you are a liar.
 

covenantee

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That is a lie, as I repeatedly explained with context that you arrogantly deny.

But you don't quote Bellarmine saying that, you simply assert it with no evidence. Perhaps we should do a poll and see how many agree you are a liar.
Your dementia is getting progressively worse.

I quoted a verbatim copy/paste of your translation of Bellarmine from your post.

Who do you think I was quoting?
 

covenantee

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That is a lie, as I repeatedly explained with context that you arrogantly deny.

But you don't quote Bellarmine saying that, you simply assert it with no evidence. Perhaps we should do a poll and see how many agree you are a liar.
Are you saying that Bellarmine would disagree with what he himself said when applied to Isaiah 9:6?

What would he say about Isaiah 9:6?

He said "All the names..."

Isaiah 9:6 enumerates five of them.

Or do you think they're maybe numbers instead of names?

Then why didn't Bellarmine say, "All the numbers..."? :laughing:

You should be careful in trying to deny what he said and meant.

He was a "doctor of the church", remember?
 
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Jude Thaddeus

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Your dementia is getting progressively worse.

I quoted a verbatim copy/paste of your translation of Bellarmine from your post.
No, you ignored the context I provided.
Who do you think I was quoting?
No, you rejected the context I provided, that refutes your abuse of out-of-context snippets, and Isaiah 9:6 have nothing to do with the Pope. No Pope has ever claimed Isaiah's titles to himself, neither did Bellarmine attribute Isaiah 9:6 to the Pope. One lie after another. Quoting the same out-of-context snippets over and over again, and then claim you quoted me, is another lie. Your non-reply to post #807 is more lies. The pope=anti-Christ is outdated unbiblical polemics that you hold as doctrinal. Since you can only respond to my posts with one lie after another, in several pages, it's time to say goodbye.
 
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BreadOfLife

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A predictable surfeit of institutional dogma bereft of supporting Scripture.











Apostasy definition.

No mention of baptism.

Scripture?

So Ribera and Lacunza were not of His Church in their apostate teaching of error.

I concur.
One cannot consider onesekf a Christian and NOT be baptized in Christ (Matt. 28:19, John 3:5, Mark 16:16, Eph. 4:5, Col. 2:11-12, 1 Pet. 3:21).
Apostacy
is the repudiation of this faith.

You cannot become apostate if you are NOY a Christian - and you can't be a Christian without
Baptism.
 

Jude Thaddeus

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It's amazing. Anti-Catholics like covenantee claim authority of the Bible but reject the authority that gave it to us. IMO, for a "Christian" to reject the Council of Nicaea can't be a Christian. Too bad it's a banned topic.
 

Marymog

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I have the united unanimous witness of the historic defenders of the true faith on my side.

You don't.
Thats one I have never heard before. Who are the united unanimous witness of the historic defenders of the true faith?

Curious Mary
 

Marymog

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Thank God for the Reformation.
Lol...You do realize that the Reformation divided Christianity? Every man that picks up a bible now thinks that HE knows the truth and starts his own church telling everyone that the Holy Spirit revealed the truth to HIM and that everyone else is wrong. And you think that God wanted that? :IDK:

Jesus prayed that we all be One with One doctrine and One faith. The Reformation resulted in the opposite of that. The Reformation was the work of Satan......and you thank God for that :Laughingoutloud:
 
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Jude Thaddeus

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One cannot consider oneself a Christian and NOT be baptized in Christ (Matt. 28:19, John 3:5, Mark 16:16, Eph. 4:5, Col. 2:11-12, 1 Pet. 3:21).
Apostacy
is the repudiation of this faith.
Don't apostates have to know what they are repudiating? Lucky for them, invincible ignorance gets them off the hook.
You cannot become apostate if you are NOT a Christian - and you can't be a Christian without Baptism.
A valid baptism uses the trinitarian formula in a liturgical sense. The CC accepts most non-Catholic baptisms as valid; the anti-Catholic doesn't understand why. Converts to the faith are often surprised to learn they don't need re-baptism.
 
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Marymog

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Apostasy definition.

No mention of baptism.
Maybe I can help here.

For one to be an apostate from Christianity one must first be a Christian. If one isn't baptized, then one isn't a Christian.

Sooooo I don't get your "No mention of baptism" quip. It makes no sense.
 

Jude Thaddeus

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Thats one I have never heard before. Who are the united unanimous witness of the historic defenders of the true faith?

Curious Mary
That means only true historic believers began in America after 1860, the rest are blasphemers, apostates and heretics.
"Thank God for the Reformation" is a flaming zinger that promotes more division between Protestants and Catholics. Protestants are NOT daughters of the whore, a vicious lie in SDA doctrine. Coven has no clue what his/her cult teaches. "Thank God for the daughters of the whore" is what coven is really saying, but does so out of invincible ignorance, or old fashioned brain washing.

 
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Brakelite

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Prior to the Protestant Reformation, it was universally recognized in Western Christendom that the Catholic Church was the Church of Christ, governed by the pope as the authentic representative of Christ
Universally recognised in western Christendom? Nonsense. If that were true, why did the church find it so essential, before the resignation, to instigate crusades and inquisitions to root out heretics to the Catholic faith? Why was Rome so opposed to Celtic Christianity and the Waldenses if they were in agreement with papal authority?
 

Hobie

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"Sometimes associated" I think could be seen as somewhat of a euphemism.

I agree with you. If the Catholic church does not meet all of these specific criteria, then clearly she cannot be the Antichrist. You have offered in defence...

Indeed, the popes have been the most vigorous in affirming what we today call orthodoxy. But are the present "orthodox" views of the popes in harmony with what was commonly believed by the apostles and the early church outside of papal officialdom?
For example. It may seem extremely weird to modern day Christians to think there were anyone who could believe Jesus was a ghost, spirit, or phantom, however as you correctly pointed out, there was a small number who indeed did believe this. But are you considering the right people, and the correct meaning of what John was terming, "flesh"? Flesh in the biblical sense particularly in the NT, can mean carnal nature. So the question would be, died Jesus come in the carnal sinful nature of fallen Adam, or the perfect nature of Adam before the fall? In considering this question, one needs to take into account what Catholics term, "the immaculate conception". I suggest that when those points are considered, the Catholic church does indeed meet the criteria of believing Jesus did not come in the "flesh".
As for denying the Father and the Son, I believe this also goes deeper than the simple declaration that in the trinity there is a Father and Son. What does "eternally begotten" actually mean when determining the ontological nature of the Father/Son relationship? Is the Son truly a literal son, or metaphorical? Did the Father actually bring forth an only begotten Son, or are they not really father and son at all according to Catholic creedal and Nicean thinking?
They used the Trinity doctrine to destroy what they saw as competing forces or groups, as it is a hard thing to grasp as you see even today...