A Question for Jehovah's Witnesses
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What's your take on Phil. 2:6-7 then? Is it not possible for him to have "emptied himself" of a damn thing yet still be God, lest it violate the immutability tenet?
I'm asking whether Jesus could have emptied himself of an attribute of God (like omniscience) in the course of foregoing equality with God. @Wrangler sees such a result as akin to God changing. Do you?
Runningman
Active Member
Unbelievers often come to the Bible with a child's disposition and see that Jesus' Daddy is also his God. God has many sons (and daughters of course) who are not themselves God, are human, didn't literally descend from heaven, etc and Jesus isn't an exception. I believe the Bible describes the relationship between Father and Son in the most simplest and easy to digest of terms that the common person can accept. I am comfortable with leaving it at that.
Runningman
Active Member
Colossians 1 says Jesus is the image of the invisible God and is himself created. That means he isn't the invisible God and came later after God. Revelation also says Jesus was created. Your premise doesn't follow to a sound Biblical conclusion. Do not begin with a theology about what you believe and then find verses to decorate it with, but rather begin with verses that inform you of the truth and build from there. This is called exegesis.
Colossians 1
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Revelation 3
14“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.
No it doesn't! lol
No it doesn't !
Colossians 1:15 (NKJV)
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Gen 1 God said "Let US make man in OUR image"
Father and Jesus the Creator!
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Great point…thanks for bringing it up….
When you see how this word “rēma“ is used in other verses. It highlights exactly what you have said….it is what is uttered by a speaking voice.…..Matt 4:4; 12:36; 26:75…and many others.
“Logos” could therefore mean that Jesus is God’s spokesman….the one speaking his words to others.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Damn straight! These 2 things are not the same:
- A man selected among the people, anointed by God, to speak God's words to die as the ransom for many to be resurrected by God.
- God in the form of a man who appeared to die but never did or could.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
For some reason, you are reading the sentence as if it does not have a not in it. These 2 things are not the same:
- Equal
- Not Equal
In the above verse who raised Jesus from the dead? These 2 things are not equal.
- Being dead and then being raised from the dead
- Never dying and raising a man from the dead.
Runningman
Active Member
God made everything and is not served by human hands. Jesus had human hands. Do the math.
Acts 17
24The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples made by human hands. 25Nor is He served by human hands, as if He needed anything, because He Himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else.
Saying "Let US make man in OUR image" isn't the creation event. That's a statement about what is planned. The actual creation even was performed by YHWH, the Father. I think where you are taking a blind leap of faith is assigning specific persons to the "US" where none are stated. There is no mention of a pre-existent being known as the Word or Son of God or God the Son, Immanuel, etc in the Old Testament.
Genesis 2
4This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made them.
Isaiah 44
24Thus says the LORD,
your Redeemer who formed you from the womb:
“I am the LORD,
who has made all things,
who alone stretched out the heavens,
who by Myself spread out the earth,
Rella ~ I am a woman
Well-Known Member
Ya suppose there might be a reason for that? I can think of one. But take your time in reply.
I assume you are married, or have been..........
Genesis... For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.
Do you call the following false. They were spoken by Jesus and recorded by inspiration.
Mathew... and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’ ?
Mark... AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh.
Ephesians... FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH.
1 Cor.... Or don't you know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh.
https://www.compellingtruth.org › one-flesh-marriage.html
In marriage how do the two become one flesh? - CompellingTruth.org
The act of sex is a manifestation of "one flesh" physically and a metaphor for the other ways a married couple joins together. Much of the physical part of life involves maintenance—feeding, housing, repairing. A man and woman become one flesh in marriage when they share these things as a unit. A man is called to leave his parents—to step ...They are one but they have their respective roles as they are separate.
CAN you not understand that this is the way God the Father and God the Son/Word are?????????????????
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
I see the "not" in Phil. 2:6. I see what Paul says about Christ, though being in the form of God, "not" clinging to equality with God.
And of course I agree that Equal and Not Equal aren't the same. The Son and the Father can not be equal once one of them has "emptied himself" of something the other has. Maybe before the emptying, maybe after restoration of what was emptied, but certainly not while his emptied state persists.
And of course I see that "Being dead and then being raised from the dead" and "Never dying and raising a man from the dead" aren't the same. The first describes the Son who had "emptied himself" and was born in the likeness of mortal men who suffer physical death. The second describes the Father who raised him from the dead.
I'm wondering what you think the Son "emptied himself" of when becoming incarnate and susceptible to physical death.
I get so sick of this crap--she is Greek, for crying out loud. That is the way she reads it. Can you read Greek?You had to put something snotz in there didn't ya?
Rella ~ I am a woman
Well-Known Member
You do realize this makes no sense.... But if true ...
... yippee.... Proof.... God does have 2 arms, 2 legs, and a head, just like we do.The Peshitta.....
read it carefully. I had to cut it due to size... read the rest at Colossians 1 Peshitta Holy Bible Translated
2To those who are in Colossus, holy brethren and believers in Yeshua The Messiah: Peace with you and grace from God Our Father. 3We always thank God, The Father of our Lord Yeshua The Messiah, and we pray for you, 4Behold, from the time we heard of your faith in Yeshua The Messiah and your love for all The Holy Ones, 5Because of the hope which is kept for you in Heaven, that which from the first you had heard in the word of the truth of The Gospel, 6That which was preached to you, as also to the whole world, and grows and yields fruit, just as also in you from the day when you heard and were taught the grace of God in the truth, 7According to what you learned from Epaphra our beloved companion, who is a trustworthy Minister for you of The Messiah. 8And he has made known to us your love, which is in The Spirit. 9Due to this also, we, from the day when we heard, do not cease to pray for you and to request that you be filled with the knowledge of the pleasure of God in all wisdom and in all spiritual understanding, 10That you would walk according to what is right, and that you may please God in all good works and yield fruit, and increase in the knowledge of God, 11And that you would be empowered with all strength according to the majesty of his glory with all patience, endurance and joy. 12I thank God The Father, who made us worthy for a part of the inheritance of the Saints in the light; 13And he has saved us from the power of darkness and brought us into The Kingdom of his Beloved Son; 14He in whom we have salvation and the forgiveness of sins; 15He who is the image of The Unseen God and is The Firstborn of all creation. 16By him was everything created which is in Heaven and in The Earth: everything that is seen and everything that is unseen, whether Thrones or Dominions or Principalities or Rulers; everything has been created by his hand and in him. (NOTE: That is not talking about the Father.... Read 15 and 16 again) 17And he is The One who is before all, and all things exist by him. (NOTE: That also is not talking about the Father.... Read 17 again) 18And he is The Head of the body which is the church, for he is The Head and The Firstborn from among the dead, that he would be Preeminent in everything, (NOTE: That also is not talking about the Father, it is about Jesus, the first born from among the dead.... Read 18again) 19For in him All Fullness is pleased to dwell, 20And to reconcile all things by him to Itself, and by him It made peace by the blood of his crucifixion, whether of things that are in Earth or that are in Heaven. 21Even you from the first were aliens and enemies in your minds because of your evil works, and now he has given you peace, 22By the body of his flesh and in his death, to establish you before him as Holy Ones without blemish and without an indictment, NOW... once again John 1 from the Peshitta WHICH I HAVE CUT BECAUSE OF SIZE BUT YOU CAN READ IT YOURSELF IN FULL AT John 1 Peshitta Holy Bible Translated OR John 1 - Peshitta Aramaic New Testament NT John Etheridge 1849 James Murdock 1852 Online Parallel Bible Study Especially see vs 18. This was the other well known language that Jesus spoke.
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Yea, that’s inaccurate. The Bible describes Jesus as a container where the Spirit of God dwells. Jesus emptied himself of who not what. In other words, Jesus emptied himself of God dwelling in him.
The attributes of God is what God has but makes up who he is. What Jesus emptied himself of was God dwelling in him not a possession of God that may be borrowed like a belt. And this is further proof against the commonly held doctrine.
Keiw
Well-Known Member
The Greek scholars who translated the NT through history with a god at John 1:1 knows much more than her about the Greek language.
In the Greek Lexicons at John 1:1 and 2 Cor 4:4= the only 2 spots where the true God is called Ton Theon, and the other two are called Theon-Why? There can only be 1 reason-God( Ton Theon) and god (Theon)--trinity translations have small g god for Theon at 2 Cor 4:4, translating is the same at John 1:1. When in the same paragraph that 2 are called God or god, the true God is called Ton Theon.
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