Where did the Bible come from? - Shot out of a canon

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
The inspired parts are obvious.

Are they

I'll bet that we could find 100 people who, like you, believe that only certain parts of the Bible are inspired, and that these parts, the "inspired" parts, that is, are "obvious". I'll also bet that we would be hard-pressed to find 2 or 3 among those 100 people who are even close to being in 100% agreement about which parts are "obviously" inspired and which parts are not ;)

That doesn't bother me at all. Perhaps it should bother you.
Is it actually "God's word" if the inspired parts aren't obvious?
Why would "God's word" be inspired to some and not to others?

St. SteVen said:
The rest of it just needs to be there.

That's an interesting thing to say. If you don't mind me asking, why do you believe that, that the musings of men 'about' God ~need~ to be included alongside the Divinely inspired words 'from' God

Do you find the genealogies in the book of Numbers to be inspired, or inspiring reading?
Or the conflicting accounts in Kings and Chronicles? Inspired by God?
How about the sacrificial details in the book of Leviticus? Zzzz...

St. SteVen said:
God can use anything to speak to us.

I suppose that's true, but He seems to stick to only a very few ways these days, and one clearly FAR above all others (see the graphic below)!

So, you are a Cessationist? No more miracles. ??? No hearing from God?
Jesus sheep can no longer hear his voice?

]

 

[St. SteVen]

The Bible is the word of God. Jesus declared the word of God is truth (John 17:17).

In reference to what? Not the Bible.

The Bible wasn't canonized until the 4th century.
The King James Bible was not available until 1611 AD.

]

 

[Spyder]

The only one that I recall that was told to write something down was the Apostle John and his revelation.
Although perhaps Moses was too, in reference to the law.

But for most of history the common folk were illiterate. Teaching was mostly by oral traditions.
The writing dates on the Gospels shows that decades had passed before they were written.

And there are even questions about authorship. Did Matthew, Mark, Luke and John write these accounts?
The synoptic Gospels seem to work from (copies of) an earlier work with only minor changes and rearrangement.

It wasn't until the fourth century that the western/Latin Church of Rome decided to authorize a canon of scripture.
We Protestants use one of the canons as our Bible and reject the others. (the Apocrypha, for instance)
Nor are most Protestants even aware of other early church writings that weren't canonized.
Have you read the Didache? (teachings of the Twelve Apostles)

\

Yes sir, I have studied the history of the "Bible" as we have it, and I have also looked at the Didache. I managed at one time to find the earliest known version, but I can no longer find it anywhere. It has been amended since the original version, and I wish I had kept the website that had it back when I was looking.
As for the cannon of the bible, it was not "final" for a very long time. There are still versions out there that we don't see because they are used on only certain areas and contain "books" that we never read.
It is because I understand the journey that our bibles have taken that I search the scriptures and then ask my Father for clarification. I trust no man in history to be the holder of all truth.

 

[St. SteVen]

@Papa Smurf
Have you seen this topic?

Zondervan Publishers presents: Peter Enns: Five Views on Biblical Inerrancy

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[marks]

Maybe he feels his conscience telling him that he should read more? (And he dont want to!)

That would explain it.

I've gotten the impression it's more about that he accepts some parts, and not others, and those who believe the entire book are labeled idolators, as a means to marginalize their view lest his should be impugned. Just my impression.

Much love!

 

[marks]

That happens to me all the time, lol.

I used to do that too. Except not read w my wife, she was catholic and we didnt see eye to eye. So I'd say prayers in the morning and ask for God to speak to me, then head out the door to work. I never gave Him a chance to speak to me! I'd rattle off my morning prayer, protect these ones, heal those ones, Speak to me Lord! Amen...and boom I'm out the door. I didnt even wait for an answer!

Eventually I got smart and began inviting the Lord to go to work with me. And I would talk to Him basically all day long between jobs. And then I got even smarter and invited Him into customers houses with me. (I had a problem on a job, lol and as soon as I asked him everything fell into place!

I dont remember how long this went on. A couple weeks? Months? But at some point I started hearing the Lord's still small voice and we'd have conversations all day long, lol.
There's a bigger story that goes along with that part but succinctly, I kept so focused upon the Lord that He couldnt resist for too long!

He even told me turn off the Radio! (I havent turned it on since!) So it was like He turned up the volume for me, and that helped a lot. To start it I had to become like a little child. So I did. Then He did! Now I can't not hear His voice! He even wakes me sometimes. But the biggest tip that I can pass along for someone who wants to learn to hear the still small voice of God, is to expect for Him to answer you. And stay focused on Him. Then give pause and listen after you speak to Him.

He told me that He talks to everyone all day long and hardly any hear Him. And I know it's not my voice and my imagination making thngs up, because He doesn't talk (or think) like I do. He has a different way of speaking and somehow always says just the right thing in the right way. (Except for those times that He tells me to do stuff that I dont want to do! Lol)
He has such a cool way of talking. like nobody else that I've ever seen!

Focus-Believe-Listen!

I love reading this testimony, I've read it 4 times so far!

It was a significant time, to say the least, when I began to realize the fulness of my reconciliation to God, and along with that, His presence with me, every moment. "I will never leave you nor forsake you" became real.

The first significant time I recall that God spoke to me directly, with a real assurance it was Him . . . we have an electric garage door opener. My remote required that I open the back, and squeeze the battery contacts while I push the button. It was that way for many years. One day as I was approaching the garage I was about to open the back when this voice said inside me "It will work now". I stopped in my tracks, this seemed like the Lord! So I just pushed the button, and it worked, and has ever since. That was some years ago.

He told me, I want you to know My voice, when it's me speaking. And He's trained me to know His voice, so that when He instructs me I can believe Him. Every time I open my garage door I remember that day, and His voice. Since then - I have some serious mental/emotional struggles - God has led me through healing and deliverance that medical science says doesn't happen.

Interesting about the radio . . . He switched me over to hymns. I love them!

There was a friend of mine, we were talking one day, and he ended his sentence with, ". . . and then I realized, I'm having a conversation with my Creator!" Isn't that a most amazing thing??

Much love!

 

[MA2444]

I love reading this testimony, I've read it 4 times so far!

It was a significant time, to say the least, when I began to realize the fulness of my reconciliation to God, and along with that, His presence with me, every moment. "I will never leave you nor forsake you" became real.

The first significant time I recall that God spoke to me directly, with a real assurance it was Him . . . we have an electric garage door opener. My remote required that I open the back, and squeeze the battery contacts while I push the button. It was that way for many years. One day as I was approaching the garage I was about to open the back when this voice said inside me "It will work now". I stopped in my tracks, this seemed like the Lord! So I just pushed the button, and it worked, and has ever since. That was some years ago.

He told me, I want you to know My voice, when it's me speaking. And He's trained me to know His voice, so that when He instructs me I can believe Him. Every time I open my garage door I remember that day, and His voice. Since then - I have some serious mental/emotional struggles - God has led me through healing and deliverance that medical science says doesn't happen.

Interesting about the radio . . . He switched me over to hymns. I love them!

There was a friend of mine, we were talking one day, and he ended his sentence with, ". . . and then I realized, I'm having a conversation with my Creator!" Isn't that a most amazing thing??

Much love!

Yeah, and that was the short version! Lol.

He told the very same thing, I want you to know my voice when I am speaking and instantly obey, even without a miracle or a heavy presence of the Spirit.

He Told me to not watch the news! That if I needed to know something then He would tell me...Make sense. I do like to watch the Trump stuff, but that's not really the news. He's just, in the news a lot!

Your friend had a real nice moment! I remember when I had mine. That was just too much for coincidence, this is my Creator!

You sound like you have some good testimonies! Let's hear another one!

 

[Papa Smurf]

In short, the Old Testament was already established 300-400 years before Jesus birth.
By the time of the Septuagint. (Greek OT)

Some of the many copies of the Septuagint that we still have today include the Apocryphal books, others just the 39 OT Books, so maybe it was not completely settled by the 1st Century? .. though I certainly agree that the OT of 39 Books was agreed upon by then as something that was commonly understood/held by all (we see, for instance, no disagreements about that by anyone in the NT, from the Pharisees, Sadducees and Scribes to the Lord Jesus and the Apostles, everybody seemed to be in agreement about what constituted the OT Canon).

Are we to take these accounts as literal or figurative?

Which accounts

The synoptic Gospels were three copies of the same original with minor changes to each,

That's a new one. According to whom? I'm not saying that Mark was not used as source material in the writing of Matthew and Luke, but I don't believe that it was THE source of either one (Matthew was an eyewitness, and Luke, who was not an eyewitness, clearly used other sources).

The Epistles were letters sent to the churches.

As was Acts (originally delivered in written form, that is).

The New Testament was canonized in the 4th century AD.

A good thing (to finally make it official, that is). As noted earlier, we know that the NT Scriptures were known as such to the Apostles, and that by the earliest years of the 2nd Century at least 22 of the 27 NT Books/Epistles were being quoted regularly by the ECF as authoritative. P52, the earliest copy fragment from the Gospel of John 18 (that we discovered in the Nile Valley in Egypt) was from the late 1st Century or very early 2nd Century as well. It is amazing, is it not, how quickly and how far the Bible was copied and distributed in such a short amount of time :)

The western/Latin-speaking Church of Rome collected and voted on what should be included. (good work actually)
They worked from manuscript copies, of copies, of copies, of copies... because the original autographs were gone.

Copies of copies of copies, the consistent accuracy of which demonstrating the commitment/dedication of the scribes (who did the copying over the years/centuries, both OT and New) to making sure that every jot and tittle was accurately included, from the autographs to the copies that we have now.

The doctrinal bias of the western church was applied to the translation work.

Examples?

In reference to the Gospels... (some perspective)
Imagine that the events of 9/11 were not recorded for 30 years after the events.
We would still have another six years before anything would be written down.
What effect do we suppose that would have on the telling of the events?
Would the quotes and details be accurate?

I imagine that certain details would change for one reason or another, and to one degree or another. But the autographs of the NT were superintended by the watchful eye of the Holy Spirit, who made sure that His word said exactly what He wanted it to say (so the accuracy of events was not an issue in the case of the Bible, unless you think that the Lord suffers from some kind of memory loss .. I do not).

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf

 

[St. SteVen]

Copies of copies of copies, the consistent accuracy of which demonstrating the commitment/dedication of the scribes (who did the copying over the years/centuries, both OT and New) to making sure that every jot and tittle was accurately included, from the autographs to the copies that we have now.

Well...

What are “Textual Variants”? How bad are They?​

• Meaningful Variants. These textual variants have an impact on what the text means. For example, if one manuscript said “Jesus was happy” and another says “Jesus was sad”, that’s a meaningful variant because it changes the meaning of the text.
• Viable Variants. These Textual Variants have a decent chance of having the wording of the original document. Some variants appear in only a single (late) manuscript, and thus the chances of them being in the original text are extremely low.

Source

]

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
The doctrinal bias of the western church was applied to the translation work.

Examples?

Here's one.

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" or "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" or "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Galatians 1:4-5 KJV
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

]

 

[Spyder]

St. SteVen said:
The doctrinal bias of the western church was applied to the translation work.

Here's one.

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" or "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" or "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Galatians 1:4-5 KJV
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

]

There are some obvious cases where word or punctuation choices were made to support pet doctrines. Once those choices made it into print, they became "God's word." That is why we cannot just "read the Bible." We must devote time to study - which takes time and effort. It is so easy for a willing student of scripture to dive down into the things they believe to ensure those beliefs are valid. Rare it is that anyone does that.

 

[MA2444]

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

I plugged this passage into the Blueletterbible concordance and read it, and I can't find the word Aionios in it at all. So I looked it up in the KJV bible and this is what it says in the KJV

Matthew 13:22
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful..../KJV

So what happened there that you misquoted that word there out of scripture?
Can you clarify for us exactly what you mean about what you said?

Will the rest of the passages that you listed also have poster error in them, or is some real examples that you have?

I'm only on my first cup of coffee so far but I'll go down your list and see it I can see your point illustrated in print as an error of the text somewhere. But it sure would be nice if you could clarify for us exactly what you read that led you to the conclusion that you reached.

 

[MA2444]

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

There's a problem with this one too. It gets closer to Aionios than the first one one, but is is not Aionios, it is Aion.

G165 - aiōn - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G165 - αἰών aiṓn, ahee-ohn'; from the same as ; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):—age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without...

www.blueletterbible.org

Which says that Aion is a period of time. So it doesnt mean mean eternal. It means a period of time, which implies and end to it.

Next...
Well I have to step out but I'll come back later. But you can chew on what I posted and clarify...or ignore me...

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The purpose of this topical thread is to discuss where the Bible came from.
I keep encountering forum members that seem to have no clue, or at least some misconceptions
about the origins, history, issues and substance of the scriptures.

I invite others to share their knowledge on the subject. The link below is the best thing I have read on the subject.
I plan to post a few quotes from it. Please offer your own. Thanks.

Majority Text vs. Critical Text vs. Textus Receptus – Textual Criticism 101​

Majority Text vs. Critical Text vs. Textus Receptus - Textual Criticism 101 - Berean Patriot

/

I don’t know majority text vs. critical text vs. Textus Receptus….I can’t even pronounce that last one. But to me, the word had to come from the one who knows the inner workings of man better than any counselor, psychologist, pastor, teacher or doctor. Better than all of them combined. It baffles me how the word knows us better than we know ourselves. So my answer is: the word came from the Author.

 

[MA2444]

St. SteVen said:
The doctrinal bias of the western church was applied to the translation work.

Here's one.

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" or "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" or "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Galatians 1:4-5 KJV
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

]

I'm back. Ok I did some more.

So, Matthew 13:22, Romans 12:2, 1 Corinthians 1:20, 1 Corinthians 2:8 all use G165 Aion and do not use the word Aionios. It's a very different word.

Ephesians 2:2 uses G2889 Kosmos in that word. It doesnt use Aioninos.
Galatians 1:4 uses Aion. G165.
Luke 18:29-30 ...in this age uses G2540 Kairos for that and not Aionios. And for ...in the age to come uses Aion again.

Steven, the funny thing about the original languages is that...they are not English and may not be subjest to English rules. Many times words in scripture which word they use when depends on context. (So you kind of have to know customs and so forth also!) and how they spoke. They can take a word for (whatever) that means (whatever) and perhaps use the same word later on and it means something entirely different, because the context is different and only people who know the language very well would know that it means something different.

So it's not like you're a false teacher spouting heresies, but rather a christian man struggling to understand. I'm in the same boat Brother! So you're wrong about what you said in your post, but I can see the good intentions. We all make mistakes. Next time is my turn lol.

 

[St. SteVen]

So it's not like you're a false teacher spouting heresies, but rather a christian man struggling to understand. I'm in the same boat Brother! So you're wrong about what you said in your post, but I can see the good intentions. We all make mistakes. Next time is my turn lol.

Here's a question:
What do the three biblical doctrines of the final judgement say about the character of God?
1) Damnationism (eternal conscious torment)
2) Annihilationism (complete destruction)
3) Christian Universalism (Ultimate Redemption/UR)

Bonus question:
- Did Jesus die to save us from God?

]

 

[One 2 question]

Here's a question:
What do the three biblical doctrines of the final judgement say about the character of God?
1) Damnationism (eternal conscious torment)
2) Annihilationism (complete destruction)
3) Christian Universalism (Ultimate Redemption/UR)

Bonus question:
- Did Jesus die to save us from God?

]

It may appear that Jesus died to save us from an avengeful God and for a loving God.

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness

Luk 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

[St. SteVen]

It may appear that Jesus died to save us from an avengeful God...

Yes, it certainly may.
Is that in fact the case?

Would you consider eternal conscious torment to be justice?
Eternal punishment for a finite "crime"?

Kolasis - William Barclay

The word for punishment is kolasis. The word was originally a gardening word, and its original meaning was pruning trees. In Greek there are two words for punishment, timoria and kolasis, and there is a quite definite distinction between them. Aristotle defines the difference; kolasis is for the sake of the one who suffers it; timoria is for the sake of the one who inflicts it. Plato says that no one punishes (kolazei) simply because he has done wrong - that would be to take unreasonable vengeance (timoreitai). We punish (kolazei) a wrong-doer in order that he may not do wrong again (Protagoras 323 E). Clement of Alexandria (Stromateis 4.24; 7.16) defines kolasis as pure discipline, and timoria as the return of evil for evil. Aulus Gellius says that kolasis is given that a man may be corrected; timoria is given that dignity and authority may be vindicated (The Attic Nights7.14). The difference is quite clear in Greek and it is always observed. Timoria is retributive punishment. Kolasis is always given to amend and to cure.

~William Barclay, The Apostle's Creed, pg 189

Kolasis - William Barclay

]

 

[bluedragon]

What is Textual Criticism?​

Here is an excellent definition of Textual Criticism from Dan Wallace, who is one of the most respected Textual Critics in the world today.

Textual Criticism is:


The practice of Textual Criticism is not “criticizing the Bible“, it’s trying to recover the Bible’s original text. A “textual critic” is not someone who criticizes the Bible, but someone who tries their best to reconstruct the original text.

It shouldn’t come as a surprise, but we don’t have the original documents that Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, and other New Testament writers wrote. They were originally written on either papyrus (essentially paper) or possibly parchment (animal skins) which have long since degraded with time and use. However, the originals were copied many, many times. Those copies were copied, which were copied, which were copied, which were…

Well, you get the idea.

So what we have are copies of copies of the original (sometimes many generations of copying deep). Before Gutenberg invented the printing press in the early-mid 1400s, everything was copied by hand. Therefore, it should come as no surprise that the scribes who did the copying occasionally made some mistakes.

When two copies disagree with each other, you have a variant in the text between two documents: this is (unsurprisingly) called a “Textual Variant”.

Clever, right?

/

They had no Scotch Tape to seal the tears in the scrolls ......

 

[St. SteVen]

They had no Scotch Tape to seal the tears in the scrolls ......

LOL - Indeed.
The oldest manuscript copies, of copies, of copies, of copies... are in pretty rough shape.


Front and back of the oldest fragment of the Gospel of John.


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