I'm starting to move away from "pretend Christianity"

[Phil .]

Don’t move away from anything.

Move directly towards.

 

[Phil .]

find out why prophets of God and actual teachers of sound doctrine are no longer permitted in the modern church system.

Fighting delusion with delusion doesn’t pan out to be other than delusion.

 

[Episkopos]

Fighting delusion with delusion doesn’t pan out to be other than delusion.

Not everyone that leaves the church system will progress further in Christ. For many it's better the devil you know...

 

[O'Darby]

Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily.....

Or as my Russian wife insists on singing because it got stuck in her head, "Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, life is NOT a dream." I've given up trying to correct her! :)

The late Harry Dean Stanton, one of my personal heroes, is interviewed at the end of "Repo Man," perhaps my favorite movie, and, when the interviewer attempts to draw him in to a deep discussion of What It's All About, old Harry strums his guitar and starts singing "Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ..." - and I don't think he was kidding.

It's impossible to find a Repo Man clip that is completely clean, but this is "mostly" clean and maybe even pertinent to this thread! (One F word, so those with virgin ears should be forewarned.)

 

[Phil .]

Not everyone that leaves the church system will progress further in Christ. For many it's better the devil you know...

Fighting delusion with delusion doesn’t pan out to be other than delusion.

The aim is to grow the church in an era of friendship and connection crisis, and what’s offered is utter nonsense about progress from self proclaimed prophets and teachers which know some thing. With such ego, where will they even have space to sit? Don’t stand there labeling the lob; knock it out of the park. Lose yourself.

GPT’s estimation of the percentage of people who listen to Eminem, in comparison to attending church regularly (US):
Listen to Eminem. 35%
Attend church regularly. 25%

Wake. Up.

 

[Cyd]

I don't dispute this at all. If you read my testimony on my blog, you'll see that I had a startling born again experience at age 20 when being born again was the farthest thing from my mind. Being born again and being neck-deep in "pretend Christianity" are, IMO, two very different things.

O'Darby's Slightly Odd Testimony

My long and winding journey from being born again to actually believing.

www.christianityboard.com

O'Darby,
I just read your testimony and the Lord brought this to my memory that you might enjoy as this site is done by a Lawyer.

About the Author of Jesus Words Only

About the Author of Jesus Words Only

jesuswordsonly.org

You might find another lawyer interesting on his proofs and findings.

 

[Episkopos]

Fighting delusion with delusion doesn’t pan out to be other than delusion.

The aim is to grow the church in an era of friendship and connection crisis, and what’s offered is utter nonsense about progress from self proclaimed prophets and teachers which know some thing. With such ego, where will they even have space to sit? Don’t stand there labeling the lob; knock it out of the park. Lose yourself.

GPT’s estimation of the percentage of people who listen to Eminem, in comparison to attending church regularly (US):
Listen to Eminem. 35%
Attend church regularly. 25%

Wake. Up.

I would think that before people start to embrace the truth the numbers would go into the single digits. Half-truths get in the way of the truth.

And who said that Christianity was supposed to be popular? Jesus said that few would find.

 

[Phil .]

I would think that before people start to embrace the truth the numbers would go into the single digits. Half-truths get in the way of the truth.

And who said that Christianity was supposed to be popular? Jesus said that few would find.

Very well then.
I love you!

 

[Mr E]

Or as my Russian wife insists on singing because it got stuck in her head, "Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, life is NOT a dream." I've given up trying to correct her! :)

The late Harry Dean Stanton, one of my personal heroes, is interviewed at the end of "Repo Man," perhaps my favorite movie, and, when the interviewer attempts to draw him in to a deep discussion of What It's All About, old Harry strums his guitar and starts singing "Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ..." - and I don't think he was kidding.

It's impossible to find a Repo Man clip that is completely clean, but this is "mostly" clean and maybe even pertinent to this thread! (One F word, so those with virgin ears should be forewarned.)

I have a good buddy with great insight in this arena. Once in conversation on this subject- he posed-- "Is your dream dreaming you?"

Maybe the dream is the reality and we are the dream. We, a shadow of what's real.

 

[marks]

Well at least you are taking the first steps in the right direction. Most modern churches now are really just Christ sellers rather than disciple makers.

What you do is put aside all you have been taught before and get a good translation, I recommend the King James Version as it is definitely tried and tested. Start to study it at face value. It is people of the past passing on to us what they understood. Take them at their word. Once you start to get your theology right expect to recieve the anointing of the Holy Spirit and expect to start to see the gifts of the spirit manifest in your life.

Its a question of our faith. We need our faith to be placed correctly. And I echo your suggestion here.

Much love!

 

[Nancy]

That's a damn good question. Lord, you promised to send us a helper. Well? Why do we still have feet of clay?

I used to listen to Ravi's "Let my people think" program. I liked him.

And, yet another good question my brother! I loved Ravi and was devastated at his fall. Although, he did give some awesome teachings and more than likely was a conduit to many, for reasons to believe in Christ. "As long as Jesus is preached..."

The love of very many is so cold now that it has effected everyone I know, Christians in particular in my experience.

Much love brother o' mine!

 

[Nancy]

I have a good buddy with great insight in this arena. Once in conversation on this subject- he posed-- "Is your dream dreaming you?"

Maybe the dream is the reality and we are the dream. We, a shadow of what's real.

Lol, that is a lyric from a Willie Nelson Song. "It's Not Supposed to Be That Way" (I love his music)

"It's not supposed to be that way
You're supposed to know I love you
But it don't matter anyway
If I can't be there to control you
Like the other little children
You're gonna dream a dream or two
But be careful what you're dreamin'
Or soon your dreams will be dreamin' you

chorus​

It's not supposed to be that way
You're supposed to know I love you
But it don't matter anyway
If I can't be there to console you
And when you go out to play this evenin'
Play with fireflies 'til they're gone..."

 

[SavedInHim]

The larger concern I attempted to raise was, "Where was the Holy Spirit in all this?"

I think the answer is fairly easy: He's not around because He's not invited.

We idolize professional Christians. We measure their importance by book sales, speaking engagements, or how many followers they have on social media. If they have all the right worldly credentials, and they're popular enough, they must know what they're talking about. We believe we can attain spiritual maturity with the right knowledge. But it doesn't work that way.

People have to humble themselves before God and ask earnestly for the Holy Spirit's help; otherwise it's game over.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Increasingly, the phrase "pretend Christianity" has been in my mind. Google the phrase and you'll find it’s in a lot of peoples' minds. I'm frankly beginning to wonder if about 95% of what passes for belief is really just pretend Christianity. I'm honestly beginning to wonder if there is any reality to all this at all.

All the hoopla that surrounds lots of peoples' Christianity – church activities, Bible studies, happy talk of God and Jesus, yada yada – I'm beginning to wonder if it disguises the fact most folks have no real belief at all and know they're just pretending. It brings to mind the Emperor's New Clothes: We won't admit, even to ourselves, that we're mostly just pretending and everything will be fine. As long as we all pretend together, everything will be fine.

The downfall of Ravi Zacharias a few years ago was a turning point for me. As you may or may not know, Ravi was one of the greatest Christian apologists of modern times. He was called things like "the most godly man in the world" and "a worthy successor to Billy Graham." He had a worldwide ministry. He wrote books and endorsed others – a Ravi endorsement was worth its weight in gold. He was a frequent guest on other apologists' radio programs and podcasts and was introduced in reverential tones and treated as an especially honored guest.

But Ravi was also a complete fraud. His academic credentials were greatly exaggerated. He had an extensive secret life involving sexual misconduct and abuse, replete with threats, payoffs and all the rest. It surfaced just before he died and was fully documented after his death. I corresponded with the attorney who first exposed the tip of the iceberg and watched agog as it all unfolded. Ravi had fooled his family, his closest associates in his ministry, all those who treated him as "the most godly man in the world" and, of course, his legions of devoted followers. Nonbelievers now had one more reason to laugh and say, "There ya go. Just another fraud. It’s all phony."

Ravi's ministry changed its name and pretty much collapsed. His books were pulled, his ministry credentials revoked. Christian authors removed his endorsements from their books. Those who had treated him with reverence now pretended they'd never heard of him. His devoted followers were crushed. It was about as huge and startling a fall as any Christian leader has ever suffered.

The typical Christian response was and is that Ravi's fall is just another reminder that we're all fallible and imperfect humans, subject to temptation and sin, yada yada. Well, yes, it is certainly that. After an appropriate period of hand-wringing, the Ravi scandal was tucked away in the little box wihere such scandals are kept while "Christianity, Inc." got on with its business.

When I tried to raise larger concerns, on forums and elsewhere, the response was always, "No, this just shows we're all subject to temptation and sin, yada yada. Nothing else to see here, move along please."

The larger concern I attempted to raise was, "Where was the Holy Spirit in all this?" Ravi was surrounded by believers, seemingly none of whom was blessed with even an ounce of discernment. His wife and daughter were clueless. His ministry staff was clueless. All the Christian leaders who associated with him, sought his endorsements and treated him with reverence were clueless.

The Holy Spirit was seemingly so weak and ineffectual that Ravi's family was devastated, his ministry was destroyed, all the good he had done was undone, his devoted followers were crushed, and nonbelievers were handed yet more ammunition on a golden platter. We prattle about how God did this and that and the Holy Spirit did this and that in our lives, but the Holy Spirit seems to have been completely missing in action when it came to Ravi. Someone couldn't have been blessed with enough discernment to step in before this caused all the damage it did???

I raised this directly with a couple of prominent apologists who had been among Ravi's most worshipful supporters. Does it trouble you that you were completely duped, that you were allowed to mislead others, that you lacked even a modicum of discernment? Forget Ravi and his foibles - what does this say about the Holy Spirit in your own life? What does it say about the Holy Spirit in general? Where's the beef?

I received no response.

It was and is enough to make me wonder, "Is there any reality to this?" Are we perhaps pretending to believe things that simply Aren't True? Is it possible that if there is any reality to Christianity, this reality is far from what we pretend it is? Is all the hoopla perhaps why "Christianity" seems so far from anything Jesus could have been talking about or possibly had in mind?

I don't have the answers, but I do find myself increasingly moving in the direction of a less dogmatic theism in which I more genuinely believe and away from what this brand of Christianity requires me to pretend to believe. Your mileage may vary.

I have not read all the other responses. I can only say this.

Do not allow the weakness of even the most "revered men" in christianity to draw you away from your own relationship and responsibility before the Lord Jesus Christ. Things like this have been happening and will continue until Jesus returns. If you let them draw you away from Jesus, that is on you , not them.

Even if all else fail, will you still continue to strive towards full maturity in Jesus? Will you live the words of thas ong.."Though none go with me, still I will follow."....

 

[O'Darby]

I think the answer is fairly easy: He's not around because He's not invited.

We idolize professional Christians. We measure their importance by book sales, speaking engagements, or how many followers they have on social media. If they have all the right worldly credentials, and they're popular enough, they must know what they're talking about. We believe we can attain spiritual maturity with the right knowledge. But it doesn't work that way.

People have to humble themselves before God and ask earnestly for the Holy Spirit's help; otherwise it's game over.

I will say this: As I attempted to derive a "conventional Christian" rationale for the Ravi fiasco, what I came up with was this: James isn't kidding when he says friendship with the world is enmity with God. Those who maintain friendship with the world expose themselves to temptations in proportion to their friendship. That's true from the local dog-catcher to the mega-church televangelist. Hence my little philosophy, "It's easier to avoid temptation than resist it." Had I maintained friendship with the world to the extent Ravi did, my fall might well have been even more spectacular. What's particularly disorienting is when one's friendship with the world is conducted under the guise of "spreading the gospel." How easy to delude oneself in these circumstances. Do I maintain no friendship with the world? No, that's impossible (and I was born with the "golf gene!" :)), but I have constant awareness of avoiding temptation rather than kidding myself I can resist it.

This still doesn't get at my core concern: Ravi's downfall impacted a huge swath of Christianity and its opponents. Surely the Holy Spirit was there somewhere, yet the fiasco was allowed to unfold as though the Spirit were simply MIA.

 

[Traveler]

As a general rule God shows up as a confirmation of his word. If the saint does not have a correct understanding of the scriptures, God will not be giving them any confirmation, simple as that.

The biggest obstacle is that mammon has crept into the church and this has caused all sorts of problems.

 

[ElieG12]

...The biggest obstacle is that ...

They don't know what "THE Church" is.

The idea that most Christians have at this time about "the church" points to a virtual community formed by individuals who can be in any Christian group without difference, accept any of the doctrinal variants about many things without difference, have varied points of view on different practices without difference, interpreting the Bible according to their "own understanding" even if it differs from any other member of the said virtual church, etc.

In other words, for most Christians today, the church is nowhere recognizable and only God knows who is in it. The issue is: is that point of view realistic? Is the real Christian Church totally unrecognizable today?

The consequences of that point of view are evidently devastating in the religious world that is called "Christian" today. In fact, non-believers take advantage of this ambiguity to divide believers even further and ultimately destroy their faith.

In no historical era has the people of God been something virtual, but rather something objective, tangible, where people can go with confidence and feel sure that God is with his people and they are members of it (Is. 2:2-4).

Acts 15:14 (...) God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name.

 

[marks]

In other words, for most Christians today, the church is nowhere recognizable and only God knows who is in it.

Matthew 13:44 KJV
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

A treasure, hidden in a field. The man keeps the treasure hid, and buys the field.

Much love!

 

[Traveler]

They don't know what "THE Church" is.

The idea that most Christians have at this time about "the church" points to a virtual community formed by individuals who can be in any Christian group without difference, accept any of the doctrinal variants about many things without difference, have varied points of view on different practices without difference, interpreting the Bible according to their "own understanding" even if it differs from any other member of the said virtual church, etc.

In other words, for most Christians today, the church is nowhere recognizable and only God knows who is in it. The issue is: is that point of view realistic? Is the real Christian Church totally unrecognizable today?

The consequences of that point of view are evidently devastating in the religious world that is called "Christian" today. In fact, non-believers take advantage of this ambiguity to divide believers even further and ultimately destroy their faith.

In no historical era has the people of God been something virtual, but rather something objective, tangible, where people can go with confidence and feel sure that God is with his people and they are members of it (Is. 2:2-4).

Acts 15:14 (...) God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name.

Some time back I did a study on demonology, the real battle is not out in the world, Satan aready controls that. The battle is right in the organized church so as to bring in another Gospel. The demoness behind that move is called Astaroth.

H6252

עשׁתּרת עשׁתּרות
‛ashtârôth ‛ashtârôth
ash-taw-roth', ash-taw-roth'
Plural of H6251; Ashtaroth, the name of a Sidonian deity, and of a place East of the Jordan: - Ashtaroth, Astaroth. See also H1045, H6253, H6255.

If you go to a church try binding that demon from operating over it and you will see some changes.

Expect to find a lot of witches in the modern church as well because they fill the function of Satans intercessors.

 

[ElieG12]

Matthew 13:44 KJV
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

A treasure, hidden in a field. The man keeps the treasure hid, and buys the field.

Much love!

Was it like this in the first century?