I'm starting to move away from "pretend Christianity"

[marks]

Thinker is the thought, thinker.
Someone trying to prove something, is the thought, someone trying to prove something.
I know, is the thought, I know.
Self-evident. Pretending this is not the case, is what this thread is about.

I don't know what you are saying here.

Much love!

 

[O'Darby]

Just to flesh out a bit what I'm saying, I believe Jesus was talking about and hoping eventually to achieve a COMPLETE TRANSFORMATION in the lives of His followers through TOTAL COMMITMENT to His message. Consider:

"No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.” Luke 9:62.​

​

"Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God." Luke 9:60.​

​

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26.​

​

"If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." Matthew 19:21.​

​

“Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat, nor about your body, what you will put on. … Instead, seek His kingdom, and these things will be added to you." Luke 12:22-31.​

​

I don't think He was talking about "sorta kinda" fitting His message into the comfortable, worldy lives we all want to live. I don't think He was talking about "believing the right doctrines" and arguing endlessly with others. I don't think He was talking about what "Christianity" looks like today AT ALL.

The above verses are all, of course, conveniently explained away in "Christianity." Jesus didn't really mean THAT. He knew THAT would be too demanding. Those verses are just hyperbole, aspirational and inspirational, but NOT what He was REALLY expecting.

In what I call pretend Christianity, it's all about believing or at least pretending to believe the "right" things. It's about slavishly reading the Bible, or at least saying you do. It's about fitting into some sort of undemanding Christian community and congratulating ourselves that we're not like "them" (a category that not only includes atheists and Hindus but even other species of Christians). It's about having at least a thin "Christian" veneer on entirely worldy lives that really look only superficially different from what they'd look like if we were greedy, ambitious atheists.

This is what MY life looks like, too, mind you, I'm not saying Jesus is happy with me either. I'm just saying I'm not going to continue to play the game of pretending that I think this is OK or what Jesus was talking about. I think "Christianity" is pretty much 180 degrees from what He was talking about.

And why are things this way? Well, as I said, it's puzzling enough to make me question whether there is any reality to any of it. On the other hand, I have seen enough transformative effects of the Holy Spirit in my own life to think - not "know" :) - that there must be. Probably it comes down to the doubt that many Christians like to pretend they don't have. Do any of us take the above verses seriously? If we did, would our lives look anything like they actually do? Isn't doubt the reason we hedge our bets and keep at least one foot planted firmly in the world. What other explanation could there be?

If we can't be the disciples Jesus hoped to have, at least we can stop pretending and start trying to move in that direction.

Did you ask the Lord to forgive you for being luke warm confessing and forsaking your sin?

Tnank you for your insightful contribution. Readers, I give you Exhibit A.

 

[marks]

In what I call pretend Christianity, it's all about believing or at least pretending to believe the "right" things. It's about slavishly reading the Bible, or at least saying you do. It's about fitting into some sort of undemanding Christian community and congratulating ourselves that we're not like "them" (a category that not only includes atheists and Hindus but even other species of Christians). It's about having at least a thin "Christian" veneer on entirely worldy lives that really look only superficially different from what they'd look like if we were greedy, ambitious atheists.

This is what MY life looks like, too, mind you, I'm not saying Jesus is happy with me either. I'm just saying I'm not going to continue to play the game of pretending that I think this is OK or what Jesus was talking about. I think "Christianity" is pretty much 180 degrees from what He was talking about.

I think I understand now. I think you are on a good path.

"Slavishly reading the Bible", what a great example! Reading it because we think we have to . . . or . . . reading it because we are so hungry for the Author. But if we don't feel the hunger, forcing ourselves to read about Him can awaken that hunger.

Devotion is a two edged sword. One cutting edge is that we are devoted in our hearts and yearn for Him. The other cutting edge is that we've devoted ourselves to Him, and choose to live for Him. Both are real, and valid.

Much love!

 

[Mr E]

Maybe he was but the messages he peached were good. So do we ignore all the good stuff because of what came put about him later? Did the unrighteousness cancel out all the good stuff.

Ask some never-Trumpers.

 

[marks]

It's about fitting into some sort of undemanding Christian community and congratulating ourselves that we're not like "them"

Rather,

Hebrews 10:24-25 KJV
24) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25) Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Much love!

 

[BlessedPeace]

Just to flesh out a bit what I'm saying, I believe Jesus was talking about and hoping eventually to achieve a COMPLETE TRANSFORMATION in the lives of His followers through TOTAL COMMITMENT to His message. Consider:

"No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.” Luke 9:62.​

​

"Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God." Luke 9:60.​

​

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26.​

​

"If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." Matthew 19:21.​

​

“Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat, nor about your body, what you will put on. … Instead, seek His kingdom, and these things will be added to you." Luke 12:22-31.​

​

I don't think He was talking about "sorta kinda" fitting His message into the comfortable, worldy lives we all want to live. I don't think He was talking about "believing the right doctrines" and arguing endlessly with others. I don't think He was talking about what "Christianity" looks like today AT ALL.

The above verses are all, of course, conveniently explained away in "Christianity." Jesus didn't really mean THAT. He knew THAT would be too demanding. Those verses are just hyperbole, aspirational and inspirational, but NOT what He was REALLY expecting.

In what I call pretend Christianity, it's all about believing or at least pretending to believe the "right" things. It's about slavishly reading the Bible, or at least saying you do. It's about fitting into some sort of undemanding Christian community and congratulating ourselves that we're not like "them" (a category that not only includes atheists and Hindus but even other species of Christians). It's about having at least a thin "Christian" veneer on entirely worldy lives that really look only superficially different from what they'd look like if we were greedy, ambitious atheists.

This is what MY life looks like, too, mind you, I'm not saying Jesus is happy with me either. I'm just saying I'm not going to continue to play the game of pretending that I think this is OK or what Jesus was talking about. I think "Christianity" is pretty much 180 degrees from what He was talking about.

And why are things this way? Well, as I said, it's puzzling enough to make me question whether there is any reality to any of it. On the other hand, I have seen enough transformative effects of the Holy Spirit in my own life to think - not "know" :) - that there must be. Probably it comes down to the doubt that many Christians like to pretend they don't have. Do any of us take the above verses seriously? If we did, would our lives look anything like they actually do? Isn't doubt the reason we hedge our bets and keep at least one foot planted firmly in the world. What other explanation could there be?

If we can't be the disciples Jesus hoped to have, at least we can stop pretending and start trying to move in that direction.

Tnank you for your insightful contribution. Readers, I give you Exhibit A.

And a 'new' one at that.

 

[Bill Judson]

Tnank you for your insightful contribution. Readers, I give you Exhibit A.

You did say you were starting to move away from "pretend Christianity" so that sounds as though you have not been serious about your walk with the Lord up until this point which would be sin.

I was just curious if you had asked the Lord to forgive you for this sin or not.

 

[quietthinker]

Increasingly, the phrase "pretend Christianity" has been in my mind. Google the phrase and you'll find it’s in a lot of peoples' minds. I'm frankly beginning to wonder if about 95% of what passes for belief is really just pretend Christianity. I'm honestly beginning to wonder if there is any reality to all this at all.

All the hoopla that surrounds lots of peoples' Christianity – church activities, Bible studies, happy talk of God and Jesus, yada yada – I'm beginning to wonder if it disguises the fact most folks have no real belief at all and know they're just pretending. It brings to mind the Emperor's New Clothes: We won't admit, even to ourselves, that we're mostly just pretending and everything will be fine. As long as we all pretend together, everything will be fine.

The downfall of Ravi Zacharias a few years ago was a turning point for me. As you may or may not know, Ravi was one of the greatest Christian apologists of modern times. He was called things like "the most godly man in the world" and "a worthy successor to Billy Graham." He had a worldwide ministry. He wrote books and endorsed others – a Ravi endorsement was worth its weight in gold. He was a frequent guest on other apologists' radio programs and podcasts and was introduced in reverential tones and treated as an especially honored guest.

But Ravi was also a complete fraud. His academic credentials were greatly exaggerated. He had an extensive secret life involving sexual misconduct and abuse, replete with threats, payoffs and all the rest. It surfaced just before he died and was fully documented after his death. I corresponded with the attorney who first exposed the tip of the iceberg and watched agog as it all unfolded. Ravi had fooled his family, his closest associates in his ministry, all those who treated him as "the most godly man in the world" and, of course, his legions of devoted followers. Nonbelievers now had one more reason to laugh and say, "There ya go. Just another fraud. It’s all phony."

Ravi's ministry changed its name and pretty much collapsed. His books were pulled, his ministry credentials revoked. Christian authors removed his endorsements from their books. Those who had treated him with reverence now pretended they'd never heard of him. His devoted followers were crushed. It was about as huge and startling a fall as any Christian leader has ever suffered.

The typical Christian response was and is that Ravi's fall is just another reminder that we're all fallible and imperfect humans, subject to temptation and sin, yada yada. Well, yes, it is certainly that. After an appropriate period of hand-wringing, the Ravi scandal was tucked away in the little box wihere such scandals are kept while "Christianity, Inc." got on with its business.

When I tried to raise larger concerns, on forums and elsewhere, the response was always, "No, this just shows we're all subject to temptation and sin, yada yada. Nothing else to see here, move along please."

The larger concern I attempted to raise was, "Where was the Holy Spirit in all this?" Ravi was surrounded by believers, seemingly none of whom was blessed with even an ounce of discernment. His wife and daughter were clueless. His ministry staff was clueless. All the Christian leaders who associated with him, sought his endorsements and treated him with reverence were clueless.

The Holy Spirit was seemingly so weak and ineffectual that Ravi's family was devastated, his ministry was destroyed, all the good he had done was undone, his devoted followers were crushed, and nonbelievers were handed yet more ammunition on a golden platter. We prattle about how God did this and that and the Holy Spirit did this and that in our lives, but the Holy Spirit seems to have been completely missing in action when it came to Ravi. Someone couldn't have been blessed with enough discernment to step in before this caused all the damage it did???

I raised this directly with a couple of prominent apologists who had been among Ravi's most worshipful supporters. Does it trouble you that you were completely duped, that you were allowed to mislead others, that you lacked even a modicum of discernment? Forget Ravi and his foibles - what does this say about the Holy Spirit in your own life? What does it say about the Holy Spirit in general? Where's the beef?

I received no response.

It was and is enough to make me wonder, "Is there any reality to this?" Are we perhaps pretending to believe things that simply Aren't True? Is it possible that if there is any reality to Christianity, this reality is far from what we pretend it is? Is all the hoopla perhaps why "Christianity" seems so far from anything Jesus could have been talking about or possibly had in mind?

I don't have the answers, but I do find myself increasingly moving in the direction of a less dogmatic theism in which I more genuinely believe and away from what this brand of Christianity requires me to pretend to believe. Your mileage may vary.

Deconstructing is no stranger to constructing for those with courage.

 

[Phil .]

"Is any of this real?"

That would be the first investigation, before engaging in this… obviously, right?

How is all to the contrary not, so to speak, an utter waste of time?

And I don’t mean Christianity, I just mean this.

 

[O'Darby]

That would be the first investigation, before engaging in this… obviously, right?

How is all to the contrary not, so to speak, an utter waste of time?

And I don’t mean Christianity, I just mean this.

Yes, I think that's right. This is why, as I explain in my testimony, I stepped back from my born-again conversion experience at age 20 and embarked on a 54-year (at this point) quest that mostly had nothing directly to do with Christianity. Christianity is, to me, more a place where someone may "land" after deeply considering more fundamental issues. For way too many people (IMO), Christianity is a top-down religion. They "accept" Christianity, often without a great deal of thought, and immediately believe that any and all questions about the very nature of existence and reality have been answered and are no longer worth their time.

 

[Phil .]

Yes, I think that's right. This is why, as I explain in my testimony, I stepped back from my born-again conversion experience at age 20 and embarked on a 54-year (at this point) quest that mostly had nothing directly to do with Christianity. Christianity is, to me, more a place where someone may "land" after deeply considering more fundamental issues. For way too many people (IMO), Christianity is a top-down religion. They "accept" Christianity, often without a great deal of thought, and immediately believe that any and all questions about the very nature of existence and reality have been answered and are no longer worth their time.

Beautiful.
What’s happening?

 

[Behold]

Ravi's ministry changed its name and pretty much collapsed. His books were pulled, his ministry credentials revoked. Christian authors removed his endorsements from their books. Those who had treated him with reverence now pretended they'd never heard of him. His devoted followers were crushed. It was about as huge and startling a fall as any Christian leader has ever suffered.

The typical Christian response was and is that Ravi's fall is just another reminder that we're all fallible and imperfect humans, subject to temptation and sin, yada yada. Well, yes, it is certainly that. After an appropriate period of hand-wringing, the Ravi scandal was tucked away in the little box wihere such scandals are kept while "Christianity, Inc." got on with its business.

What happened regarding Ravi Zacharias's carnality, has no meaning for me.

Ive never met a Christian who can walk on water, and ive never met one who has a halo.

Real Christians are flawed people who have come to the Truth and believe it..., but that does not mean they are perfected.
See, every believer, born again, is going to be "conformed into the IMAGE of Jesus,"" = after they die.
And why after? Its because noone is completely conformed down here.. as otherwise, God would not have to complete it, after you are dead.
Paul teaches us to "come into one mind" and "be perfected" and Paul teaches us to attain the "fullness of the Stature of Christ".. but that has to do with the renewed mind.

So....
I recognize that just like you Reader... Ravi is a human, and he had some issues with his flesh.
Nothing more and nothing less.
I understand that the worst sinners often make the best Christians, yet they are never completely perfected down here.

You, me, the Pope, Billy Graham, Mary the Mother of God, and everyone who was ever born again, = DIES as a discipleship work in progress, tho Eternally Made Righteous as "the Righteousness of God, in Christ".

But Ravi's ministry.....was very powerful.
His words are very insightful.
What He taught, was true, but how he sometimes lived as a man, as a human, didnt always correspond with His ministry.

I would say that a judgmental finger pointing person, who feels a carnal need to condemn him in public, after He is dead,.... has a ongoing problem with their flesh that is perhaps worse then someone who had both a worldwide ministry, and a self control issue regarding "pursuing women".

 

[O'Darby]

Beautiful.
What’s happening?

"What's happening?" is yet another question more profound than most people think! :)

My current fascination at the moment is Idealism as Bernardo Kastrup proposes it in books like The idea of the World. The basic notion being that the reality we experience is fundamentally "mind" rather than "material" - meaning a mental construct of a master consciousness (God, in Christian terms). We collectively experience this reality. However, we as individuals exist as what Kastrup calls "alters" - little bubbles of consciousness within the master consciousness with our own internal world of perceptions, thoughts and emotions. Although Kastrup isn't a Christian, Idealism fits nicely with the notion of God creating ex nihilo and "speaking" creation into existence and seems to me to avoid lots of other problematical issues.

Way back before I was even thinking about such things, I was struck by the old saying "Our reality is God's dream." I intuitively responded, "I'm not sure what that means, but somehow I think it's true."

 

[O'Darby]

What happened regarding Ravi Zacharias's carnality, has no meaning for me.

Ive never met a Christian who can walk on water, and ive never met one who has a halo.

Real Christians are flawed people who have come to the Truth and believe it..., but that does not mean they are perfected.
See, every believer, born again, is going to be "conformed into the IMAGE of Jesus,"" = after they die.
And why after? Its because noone is completely conformed down here.. as otherwise, God would not have to complete it, after you are dead.
Paul teaches us to "come into one mind" and "be perfected" and Paul teaches us to attain the "fullness of the Stature of Christ".. but that has to do with the renewed mind.

So....
I recognize that just like you Reader... Ravi is a human, and he had some issues with his flesh.
Nothing more and nothing less.
I understand that the worst sinners often make the best Christians, yet they are never completely perfected down here.

You, me, the Pope, Billy Graham, Mary the Mother of God, and everyone who was ever born again, DIES as a discipleship work in progress, tho Made Righteous as "the Righteousness of God, in Christ".

But Ravi's ministry.....was very powerful.
His words are very insightful.
What He taught, was true, but how he sometimes lived as a man, as a human, didnt always correspond with His ministry.

I would say that a judgmental finger pointing person, who feels a carnal need to condemn him in public, after He is dead,.... has a ongoing problem with their flesh that is perhaps worse then someone who had both a worldwide ministry, and a self control issue regarding "pursuing women".

But you are going right down the path that I have said repeatedly is NOT what I'm talking about.

Yes, Ravi was a flawed human. Yes, we all are subject to temptation and sin. Yes, yes, yes. Yada yada yada. This is the tidy little box in which we love to confine scandals like this. It has nothing, really, to do with me. It has nothing, really, to do with Christianity.

But it DOES - and that's what I'm talking about. Ravi is just a striking example because the supposed "most godly man in the world" turned out to be a pretty thorough fraud and did MASSIVE damage to the cause of the faith.

What I AM talking about is where was the Holy Spirit that we are always prattling about as though He routinely helps us find lost car keys? Where was the Holy Spirit in Ravi's life, for starters - completely and utterly Missing In Action? But more to the point, where was the Holy Spirit in the hordes of worshipful Christian leaders who seemingly had not even a modicum of discernment. Where was the Holy Spirit in the myriad of circumstances in which a modicum of discernment might have prevented Ravi's personal sin from becoming a veritable supernova of an embarrassment to Christianity?

We don't know, but we know it did become a supernova of an embarrassment - so, now, instead of confronting the fundamental questions this raises, we once again make excuses for God and assure ourselves this is somehow, mysteriously "all for the good." Maybe it actually is, but I think a more honest approach is to start asking some serious questions.

 

[Episkopos]

Increasingly, the phrase "pretend Christianity" has been in my mind. Google the phrase and you'll find it’s in a lot of peoples' minds. I'm frankly beginning to wonder if about 95% of what passes for belief is really just pretend Christianity. I'm honestly beginning to wonder if there is any reality to all this at all.

All the hoopla that surrounds lots of peoples' Christianity – church activities, Bible studies, happy talk of God and Jesus, yada yada – I'm beginning to wonder if it disguises the fact most folks have no real belief at all and know they're just pretending. It brings to mind the Emperor's New Clothes: We won't admit, even to ourselves, that we're mostly just pretending and everything will be fine. As long as we all pretend together, everything will be fine.

The downfall of Ravi Zacharias a few years ago was a turning point for me. As you may or may not know, Ravi was one of the greatest Christian apologists of modern times. He was called things like "the most godly man in the world" and "a worthy successor to Billy Graham." He had a worldwide ministry. He wrote books and endorsed others – a Ravi endorsement was worth its weight in gold. He was a frequent guest on other apologists' radio programs and podcasts and was introduced in reverential tones and treated as an especially honored guest.

Good thread. The problem with evangelicalism is that once a person is "saved" there's nothing else to go after. They see entering into Jesus...the door, as the final step. One-step Christianity. These don't see that the way is also narrow....not just the doorway.

So then evangelicals can make good apologists....but that's the limit of their expertise. They know nothing of the higher walk in Christ.

They see recruiters and pastors...that's it...no other "giftings"...all to get more and more people into the pews....and keep them there...immature and helpless.

Of course to keep to this permanent immaturity comes back to bite those who refuse to progress. We see this over and over...by staying away from a full measure of grace, people remain half-baked...to a disastrous end.

But Ravi was also a complete fraud. His academic credentials were greatly exaggerated. He had an extensive secret life involving sexual misconduct and abuse, replete with threats, payoffs and all the rest. It surfaced just before he died and was fully documented after his death. I corresponded with the attorney who first exposed the tip of the iceberg and watched agog as it all unfolded. Ravi had fooled his family, his closest associates in his ministry, all those who treated him as "the most godly man in the world" and, of course, his legions of devoted followers. Nonbelievers now had one more reason to laugh and say, "There ya go. Just another fraud. It’s all phony."

Well. I think a lot of people are in a "deconstruction" phase of their religious lives. How many will opt for a more apostolic faith? Not many...but at least the religious system no longer has a stranglehold on them.

Ravi's ministry changed its name and pretty much collapsed. His books were pulled, his ministry credentials revoked. Christian authors removed his endorsements from their books. Those who had treated him with reverence now pretended they'd never heard of him. His devoted followers were crushed. It was about as huge and startling a fall as any Christian leader has ever suffered.

The typical Christian response was and is that Ravi's fall is just another reminder that we're all fallible and imperfect humans, subject to temptation and sin, yada yada. Well, yes, it is certainly that. After an appropriate period of hand-wringing, the Ravi scandal was tucked away in the little box wihere such scandals are kept while "Christianity, Inc." got on with its business.

When I tried to raise larger concerns, on forums and elsewhere, the response was always, "No, this just shows we're all subject to temptation and sin, yada yada. Nothing else to see here, move along please."

The larger concern I attempted to raise was, "Where was the Holy Spirit in all this?" Ravi was surrounded by believers, seemingly none of whom was blessed with even an ounce of discernment. His wife and daughter were clueless. His ministry staff was clueless. All the Christian leaders who associated with him, sought his endorsements and treated him with reverence were clueless.

Anyone who exhorts others into a holier walk...or any upward call at all...is shouted down, because of sensitive egos. When the doctrine of Christ is thrown out in order to not disturb those who are sleeping in the pews...well anything goes. Prophets are NOT welcome in the religious institutions.

The Holy Spirit was seemingly so weak and ineffectual that Ravi's family was devastated, his ministry was destroyed, all the good he had done was undone, his devoted followers were crushed, and nonbelievers were handed yet more ammunition on a golden platter. We prattle about how God did this and that and the Holy Spirit did this and that in our lives, but the Holy Spirit seems to have been completely missing in action when it came to Ravi. Someone couldn't have been blessed with enough discernment to step in before this caused all the damage it did???

I raised this directly with a couple of prominent apologists who had been among Ravi's most worshipful supporters. Does it trouble you that you were completely duped, that you were allowed to mislead others, that you lacked even a modicum of discernment? Forget Ravi and his foibles - what does this say about the Holy Spirit in your own life? What does it say about the Holy Spirit in general? Where's the beef?

I received no response.

It was and is enough to make me wonder, "Is there any reality to this?" Are we perhaps pretending to believe things that simply Aren't True? Is it possible that if there is any reality to Christianity, this reality is far from what we pretend it is? Is all the hoopla perhaps why "Christianity" seems so far from anything Jesus could have been talking about or possibly had in mind?

I don't have the answers, but I do find myself increasingly moving in the direction of a less dogmatic theism in which I more genuinely believe and away from what this brand of Christianity requires me to pretend to believe. Your mileage may vary.

This is a good time to investigate the deeper Christian life and walk. At least to become aware of it....and find out why prophets of God and actual teachers of sound doctrine are no longer permitted in the modern church system.

 

[Mr E]

What happened regarding Ravi Zacharias's carnality, has no meaning for me.

Ive never met a Christian who can walk on water, and ive never met one who has a halo.

Real Christians are flawed people who have come to the Truth and believe it..., but that does not mean they are perfected.
See, every believer, born again, is going to be "conformed into the IMAGE of Jesus,"" = after they die.
And why after? Its because noone is completely conformed down here.. as otherwise, God would not have to complete it, after you are dead.
Paul teaches us to "come into one mind" and "be perfected" and Paul teaches us to attain the "fullness of the Stature of Christ".. but that has to do with the renewed mind.

So....
I recognize that just like you Reader... Ravi is a human, and he had some issues with his flesh.
Nothing more and nothing less.
I understand that the worst sinners often make the best Christians, yet they are never completely perfected down here.

You, me, the Pope, Billy Graham, Mary the Mother of God, and everyone who was ever born again, = DIES as a discipleship work in progress, tho Eternally Made Righteous as "the Righteousness of God, in Christ".

But Ravi's ministry.....was very powerful.
His words are very insightful.
What He taught, was true, but how he sometimes lived as a man, as a human, didnt always correspond with His ministry.

I would say that a judgmental finger pointing person, who feels a carnal need to condemn him in public, after He is dead,.... has a ongoing problem with their flesh that is perhaps worse then someone who had both a worldwide ministry, and a self control issue regarding "pursuing women".

This is very much missing the point. Ravi-- was obviously a fakir. Inauthentic. If I sell snake oil and you believe everything I say it makes me a good snake oil salesman, not a good doctor. It makes you, at the very least--- unable to discern both the man and the medicine.

 

[Phil .]

"What's happening?" is yet another question more profound than most people think! :)

My current fascination at the moment is Idealism as Bernardo Kastrup proposes it in books like The idea of the World. The basic notion being that the reality we experience is fundamentally "mind" rather than "material" - meaning a mental construct of a master consciousness (God, in Christian terms). We collectively experience this reality. However, we as individuals exist as what Kastrup calls "alters" - little bubbles of consciousness within the master consciousness with our own internal world of perceptions, thoughts and emotions. Although Kastrup isn't a Christian, Idealism fits nicely with the notion of God creating ex nihilo and "speaking" creation into existence and seems to me to avoid lots of other problematical issues.

Way back before I was even thinking about such things, I was struck by the old saying "Our reality is God's dream." I intuitively responded, "I'm not sure what that means, but somehow I think it's true."

“Mind” is a decent half step from the materialist’s paradigm indeed. Infinite consciousness, much more so. Maybe let this ‘human’ nonsense go. Actually try to find one.

 

[Episkopos]

Many would agree that modern Christianity is mostly just window dressing...in a general way. If you get into the why of it...the specifics...that's when those who live in glass houses think you are just there to throw bricks at them. Religious egos are among the touchiest.

 

[Mr E]

"Our reality is God's dream." I intuitively responded, "I'm not sure what that means, but somehow I think it's true."

Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily.....

 

[Mr E]

Good thread. The problem with evangelicalism is that once a person is "saved" there's nothing else to go after. They see entering into Jesus...the door, as the final step. One-step Christianity. These don't see that the way is also narrow....not just the doorway.

So then evangelicals can make good apologists....but that's the limit of their expertise. They know nothing of the higher walk in Christ.

They see recruiters and pastors...that's it...no other "giftings"...all to get more and more people into the pews....and keep them there...immature and helpless.

Of course to keep to this permanent immaturity comes back to bite those who refuse to progress. We see this over and over...by staying away from a full measure of grace, people remain half-baked...to a disastrous end.

Well. I think a lot of people are in a "deconstruction" phase of their religious lives. How many will opt for a more apostolic faith? Not many...but at least the religious system no longer has a stranglehold on them.


Anyone who exhorts others into a holier walk...or any upward call at all...is shouted down, because of sensitive egos. When the doctrine of Christ is thrown out in order to not disturb those who are sleeping in the pews...well anything goes. Prophets are NOT welcome in the religious institutions.

This is a good time to investigate the deeper Christian life and walk. At least to become aware of it....and find out why prophets of God and actual teachers of sound doctrine are no longer permitted in the modern church system.

And-- Exhibit B

Enter the salesman--- President of the Salesperson Professional Standards Commission.

Our motto--- Continued progression for better door to door interactions. The higher walk of sales!