Was Jesus 'mortal' or 'immortal' ?

[Taken]

Since most Christians believe the Trinity is a mystery and not to be understood is a huge reason why doctrinal discussions about it are often avoided or brushed aside and ignored. Worse, the teaching that the Trinity is a “mystery” has been used as a club to beat down doubters and dissenters, and those people are often branded as “heretics” and their role in Christianity minimized.

Body, soul, spirit….three separate things Yet are three integral things that make up a WHOLE.

The WHOLE of God…is:
His Body, His Spirit, His Soul…

The WHOLE of a Man….is;
His Body given in death unto the Lord God.
His Soul saved from destruction.
His Spirit born again of Gods Seed.

The WHOLE of a Man … is accomplished’
By the Mans Willingness of Agreement to become MADE Whole.
And thereafter by the POWER of God the Man is MADE WHOLE.

 

[JBO]

Right. It was a heavily negotiated doctrine in response to Arianism and Docetism. The history really isn't pretty, involving political intrigue and even violence. At one point, the "official position" flopped back to Arianism. ("We all became Arians overnight!" one Bishop famously said.) But scholars lake the late Larry Hurtado have shown that the very earliest Christians clearly worshipped Jesus as divine. Since He was quite obviously human (contra Docetism), the issue became how he could be both human and divine. The doctrine of the Trinity was an attempt to answer this question. Most Christians believe that this attempt was guided and informed by the Holy Spirit. The passages in the Bible, principally in John's Gospel and Paul's epistles, indicating that all of creation was by and through Jesus, make it impossible to assert that Jesus had no preexistence. I don't see the purpose in hammering non-Trinitarians with the claim that "You're not a Christian!" but I likewise see no point in hammering Trinitarians with the claim that "It's a false doctrine!" It's a mysterious doctrine that the vast majority of Christians have always believed, just as we can believe in the Father while recognizing and accepting that He's an Eternal, Wholly Transcendent Other and that "Father" is largely a human way to relate to this Other.

I don't find the doctrine all that mysterious. We are all soul, body and spirit, that is we are living beings (Hebrerw - nephesh) according to God's creation (Gen 2:7) with bodies of flesh. That was the same with all blooded animals. In addition, we have each been given a spirit (Zech 12:1; Eccl 12:7). It is in that spirit that we are in the image of God (Gen 1:26-27). In the case of Jesus, in His pre-incarnate being He was Spirit. I believe that Spirit was what (who) took on the body of flesh and became a living human being. He was thus fully (100%) human with soul, body and Spirit. It was in His Spirit that He was fully (100%) God (John 1:1; 4:24).

 

[Peterlag]

See: Pauline Books And Media.

I have the distinct feeling you're an agenda-driven participant with a very limited agenda and are here mostly to promote that agenda, so I'm going to leave you to it.

Quote:

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In 1 Cor. 8:6 Paul refers to Jesus as God “through whom are all things and through whom we exist”. Paul clearly attributes a role in creation to Jesus. This is not as long or developed as the expression we find John’s prologue (Jn 1: 1-14), but it is every bit as clear a statement that Jesus was involved from the beginning in creation.​

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The hymn in Col. 1:15-20 makes this even clearer. He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities -- all things were created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. There is no doubt about the role in creation attributed to Christ.​

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Paul does not invent this language out of thin air; rather, he attributes to Christ the role previously attributed in the OldTestament to Divine Wisdom. According to Proverbs (3:19) and the Book of Wisdom itself (9:2), God made the world through Wisdom, God's wisdom often being personified. It is to all this that Paul now alludes. Jesus, he says, is precisely the Wisdom of God in person. Wisdom was also often identified with the Torah (see Sir. 24:23, Bar. 4:1), and one of Paul’s most basic claims is that Christ has done what the Torah tried to do but failed. Christ replaces or fulfils it.​

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I disagree with you concerning my agenda-driven desires. My first thought was to see if I can learn something from you until you went and mentioned Scripture like the following. My teachers suggested we only talk to people who would like to receive and answer from us.

Col. 1:15-20 makes this even clearer. He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities -- all things were created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

 

[O'Darby]

I don't find the doctrine all that mysterious. We are all soul, body and spirit, that is we are living beings (Hebrerw - nephesh) according to God's creation (Gen 2:7) with bodies of flesh. That was the same with all blooded animals. In addition, we have each been given a spirit (Zech 12:1; Eccl 12:7). It is in that spirit that we are in the image of God (Gen 1:26-27). In the case of Jesus, in His pre-incarnate being He was Spirit. I believe that Spirit was what (who) took on the body of flesh and became a living human being. He was thus fully (100%) human with soul, body and Spirit. It was in His Spirit that He was fully (100%) God (John 1:1; 4:24).

It doesn't appear to me that this really addresses the Trinity, does it? It addresses Jesus, but not the Trinity (or so it seems to me).

BTW, I was with a law firm in Prescott and briefly wrote a legal column for the Courier!

 

[Mr E]

'And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the FATHER,) full of grace and truth.' (John 1:14)

'And also written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.' (1 Corinthians 15:45)

'The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from Heaven.' (1 Corinthians 15:47)


How can we witness to others using the sound doctrine knowledge of the Holy Bible, if such a question arise ?

Seeing how “Jesus” was born, and later died…

I’m going to go with mortal.

 

[MatthewG]

People love to debate in order to ‘feel’ some type of victory. It’s a mindset. A worldly mindset, which is not heavenly, but of the fleshly nature. Love God, share what you know and to be open to change is a different approach than debates that have continued to exist since Yeshua came and before. If a question is unknowable it’s unknownable. If asked a question that is knowable it’s good to study that subject in and through the Bible, see what others say about it, and in the end you make your own conclusion cause you can’t trust me, and you can’t trust anyone else, you can trust the one adopts you though! Our Father in heaven.

Endless disputes of just one subject matter can be stagnant to growth and development if one is not careful. Be wise by the Spirit, and in Christ.

Having faith in a word is detrimental to one’s soul. Have faith in the living God, who calls out to all by the creation which he has brought forth by his spoken Word which can be trusted.

 

[Phil .]

I'm an expert on the subject and can handle any verse that anybody can come up with. There's nothing and I mean nothing about the topic that I can't handle. So what do you do with a guy like me? You can't win. By that I mean come up with anything that I don't have an answer for. So the only thing left for some is to get mad. And then what always follows is personal attacks on my life. Management feels this can be a turn off for people already on the site and for new people coming on.

Is there moderation for personal attacks on another members life?

This no talking about the trinity thing is very weird. This is the first time I’ve heard of it. It’s like a football forum not allowing members to talk about the Super Bowl.

 

[Peterlag]

Is there moderation for personal attacks on another members life?

This no talking about the trinity thing is very weird. This is the first time I’ve heard of it. It’s like a football forum not allowing members to talk about the Super Bowl.

I 99.9 percent of the time if not 100 respond with "Well, we disagree" or "I see it different than you" or "I have no idea why you think like that" etc. But many go back and forth with me with statements like "You're a heretic" or "Obviously you don't know what you're talking about" or "You're not even a Christian so why do you think you can know the Bible." I will bet you my car these negative posts are what management does not want to see and I know on other sites I was reported for not posting main-stream biblical data.

 

[Mr E]

I'm an expert on the subject and can handle any verse that anybody can come up with. There's nothing and I mean nothing about the topic that I can't handle. So what do you do with a guy like me? You can't win. By that I mean come up with anything that I don't have an answer for. So the only thing left for some is to get mad. And then what always follows is personal attacks on my life. Management feels this can be a turn off for people already on the site and for new people coming on.

Maybe management just doesn't like this kind of hubris, knowing it's a complete turn-off for visitors and members alike.

A self-described and self-proclaimed "expert."

Please post your c.v.

 

[Peterlag]

Maybe management just doesn't like this kind of hubris, knowing it's a complete turn-off for visitors and members alike.

A self-described and self-proclaimed "expert."

Please post your c.v.

I started telling folks I was an expert long after many were telling me I did not know the Scriptures. And yeah I'm just telling the truth.

 

[Mr E]

I started telling folks I was an expert long after many were telling me I did not know the Scriptures. And yeah I'm just telling the truth.

Do you think if you start telling folks you are a locomotive, you’ll actually become one?

Without any “training?”

 

[Peterlag]

Do you think if you start telling folks you are a locomotive, you’ll actually become one?

Without any “training?”

Should I lie and tell people I am not an expert on the subject of the trinity?

 

[MatthewG]

Should I lie and tell people I am not an expert on the subject of the trinity?

While that is all fine and great. I do not care about the subject, and find it difficult for people to understand. People will though believe whatever someone says and then agree with others and then they get along great, but disagree then there is a debate. Both Christian, just children and not as mature especially if the debaters hate one view or the other. While it may be the view they hate - on the internet; I love people who may be a person who says they believe in the trinity or whatever. Thankfully no one is being mean or trying to outwit each other by scriptural daggers.

The reason why the trinity is not allowed to be talked about on here is because it’s not something required to know in order to be find salvation in the Gospel and Letters of the Bible.

The reason the trinity topic is banned, is because people become nasty to one another, even reporting in order to ban people from the site. I’ve been banned over the years from not following the standard code people may desire me to accept and believe but heck with all that.

 

[Mr E]

Should I lie and tell people I am not an expert on the subject of the trinity?

No. You should tell the truth and tell people you are not an expert except by self declaration.

But that level of honesty would require something you sadly lack.

 

[Peterlag]

No. You should tell the truth and tell people you are not an expert except by self declaration.

But that level of honesty would require something you sadly lack.

Do you have a verse that I handled not well on any biblical subject?

 

[Peterlag]

While that is all fine and great. I do not care about the subject, and find it difficult for people to understand. People will though believe whatever someone says and then agree with others and then they get along great, but disagree then there is a debate. Both Christian, just children and not as mature especially if the debaters hate one view or the other. While it may be the view they hate - on the internet; I love people who may be a person who says they believe in the trinity or whatever. Thankfully no one is being mean or trying to outwit each other by scriptural daggers.

The reason why the trinity is not allowed to be talked about on here is because it’s not something required to know in order to be find salvation in the Gospel and Letters of the Bible.

The reason the trinity topic is banned, is because people become nasty to one another, even reporting in order to ban people from the site. I’ve been banned over the years from not following the standard code people may desire me to accept and believe but heck with all that.

I agree with you.

 

[The Learner]

It doesn't appear to me that this really addresses the Trinity, does it? It addresses Jesus, but not the Trinity (or so it seems to me).

BTW, I was with a law firm in Prescott and briefly wrote a legal column for the Courier!

Here is a good study to do: https://www.calvarychapelboston.com/Biblical Basis Trinity Bowman.pdf

 

[The Learner]

Seeing how “Jesus” was born, and later died…

I’m going to go with mortal.

His physicl body is Mortal.

1 Peter 3:18-19

New International Version

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18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive,[a] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—

1 Peter 4:6

New International Version

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6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

James 2:26

New International Version

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26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

 

[The Learner]

No. You should tell the truth and tell people you are not an expert except by self declaration.

But that level of honesty would require something you sadly lack.

I have seven earned Doctorites and too many honorary ones to count.

 

[Phil .]

Was Jesus 'mortal' or 'immortal' ?​

You have to be born to be mortal.