CALVINISM: The height of Spiritual depravity

[Ronald Nolette]

That is the definition. But once again, the Calvinist in you has to make up other meanings to make it fit your weird theology.

It is not but then that is your problem If you do not wish to look up in a bible dictionary or even an online tool like blue lettger bible- you can stay benighted.

I don't actually know what the definition will be in the next century, but in this century and all previous centuries foreknowledge means and has always meant knowledge of the future.

Well we h ave reached a dead end. You wish to hold a false definition created in teh 21st Century and then just ignorantly state it is the definition of all centuries when I posted that what you say is a lie.

Have th elast word. There is no fruit in carrying on this conversation anymore.
.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Yeah, that's true... it's hard to not reply with correction which is what the calvinists need.

 

[JBO]

It is not but then that is your problem If you do not wish to look up in a bible dictionary or even an online tool like blue lettger bible- you can stay benighted.

Well we h ave reached a dead end. You wish to hold a false definition created in teh 21st Century and then just ignorantly state it is the definition of all centuries when I posted that what you say is a lie.

Have th elast word. There is no fruit in carrying on this conversation anymore.
.

The Greek word for foreknow is προγινώσκω [proginōskō]. It is made of a combination of the two Greek words "pro" and "ginosko". The word "pro" means before. The word "ginosko" means "to know". It means to know before. There is nothing about either words or the combination that can be construed to mean pre-plan as you have said. It is you who have constructed the false definition.

It is true that the word ginosko meaning to know was a Hebrew euphemism of sexual intercourse. And even that can't be reconfigured to indicate pre-planning. Thus if you need the false definition to support what you believe, then you seriously need to rethink what you believe.

And by the way I have any number of bible dictionaries and Greek dictionaries that say exactly what I am telling you. You need to be a little careful with such things. Too often, such translations, dictionaries, etc. have biases inserted. That is a problem with Thayer's Greek dictionary.

 

[amigo de christo]

Well I know not this JOhn Gill, so I cannot speak to what he writes.

However the biblical word "proginosko" we translate as foreknowledge means knowledge through pre planning! It is not God looking down the tunnel of time and seeing what people will do, it is God planning what He will do.

Modern example: You have cancer. You go to a doctor. He takes Xrays ct scans etc. and tells you that the "prognosis" is excellent. Why does he say that?

He knows what he is going to do and how he will cure you. Nothing about you, but everything about him and how He plans to cure you.

That is the biblical word.

GOD predetermined JESUS WOULD BE the CURE unto all who do BELIEVE .
That was what was pre determined .
You see , JESUS did not weep over jersualem and say , HOW often would i have gathered you
only YOU WERE PRE DETERMINED TO REJECT ME . NO HE SAID ONLY YE WOULD NOT . YE WOULD NOT .
and how often through the prophets did GOD warn the wicked and say
WHY WILL YE DIE . I DO NOT DESIRE YOUR DEATH , the death of the wicked but rather YE REPENT .
NOTICE again HE DID NOT SAY to them , OH YE WERE PRE DETERMINED TO DIE . NO HE SAID I HAVE NO DESIRE IN THE DEATH
o the wicked but rather they REPENT . Calvin is a pharce . Just a super friendly reminder to all
who have ears to hear and eyes to see .

 

[amigo de christo]

Yeah, that's true... it's hard to not reply with correction which is what the calvinists need. View attachment 41669

my advice remains the same . I would not follow calvin to burger king . Nor many others . TIME WE BIBLE UP my friend

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The Greek word for foreknow is προγινώσκω [proginōskō]. It is made of a combination of the two Greek words "pro" and "ginosko". The word "pro" means before. The word "ginosko" means "to know". It means to know before. There is nothing about either words or the combination that can be construed to mean pre-plan as you have said. It is you who have constructed the false definition.

Transliteration
prognōsis (Key)
Pronunciation
prog'-no-sis

1. foreknowledge
2. forethought, pre-arrangement

Learn some greek so you will not write foolish things.

Forms of the word
Dictionary:
προγινώσκω
Greek transliteration:
proginōskō
Simplified transliteration:
proginosko
Gloss:
to know beforehand, foreknow; (mid.) to choose beforehand
Definition:
to know beforehand, to be previously acquainted with, Acts 26:5; 2 Pet. 3:17; to determine on beforehand, to foreordain, 1 Pet. 1:20; in NT, from the Hebrew, to foreknow, to appoint as the subject of future privileges, Rom. 8:29; 11:2*

Coupled with predestinated:

proorizō (Key)
Pronunciation
pro-or-id'-zo

1. to predetermine, decide beforehand
2. in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
3. to foreordain, appoint beforehand

And from Ephesians:

Eph 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
chosen:
eklegomai (Key)
Pronunciation
ek-leg'-om-ahee

Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
Middle voice from ἐκ (G1537) and λέγω (G3004) (in its primary sense

The KJV translates Strong's G1586 in the following manner: choose (19x), choose out (1x), make choice (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to pick out, choose, to pick or choose out for one's self
   1. choosing one out of many, i.e. Jesus choosing his disciples
   2. choosing one for an office
   3. of God choosing whom he judged fit to receive his favours and separated from the rest of mankind to be peculiarly his own and to be attended continually by his gracious oversight
      1. i.e. the Israelites
   4. of God the Father choosing Christians, as those whom he set apart from the irreligious multitude as dear unto himself, and whom he has rendered, through faith in Christ, citizens in the Messianic kingdom: (James 2:5) so that the ground of the choice lies in Christ and his merits only

And with Chosen:

eklektos (Key)
Pronunciation
ek-lek-tos'

Part of Speech
adjective
Root Word (Etymology)
From ἐκλέγομαι (G1586)
The KJV translates Strong's G1588 in the following manner: elect (16x), chosen (7x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. picked out, chosen
   1. chosen by God,
      1. to obtain salvation through Christ
         1. Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
      2. the Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
      3. choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians
         
         
         
         The bible makes i t clear that from all of mankind which is born lost and condemned by nature- God chooses out whom He wills.
         
         
         
         14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
         
         15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
         
         16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
         
         17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
         
         18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
         
         Contrary to your false accusations, this is not some whimsical personal opinion, but a careful study of the scriptures and the meaning of the words as they were used by the inspired writers

 

[Ronald Nolette]

GOD predetermined JESUS WOULD BE the CURE unto all who do BELIEVE .
That was what was pre determined .
You see , JESUS did not weep over jersualem and say , HOW often would i have gathered you
only YOU WERE PRE DETERMINED TO REJECT ME . NO HE SAID ONLY YE WOULD NOT . YE WOULD NOT .
and how often through the prophets did GOD warn the wicked and say
WHY WILL YE DIE . I DO NOT DESIRE YOUR DEATH , the death of the wicked but rather YE REPENT .
NOTICE again HE DID NOT SAY to them , OH YE WERE PRE DETERMINED TO DIE . NO HE SAID I HAVE NO DESIRE IN THE DEATH
o the wicked but rather they REPENT . Calvin is a pharce . Just a super friendly reminder to all
who have ears to hear and eyes to see .

And God also said this:

Rom 8:8
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

So Jesus, being God, knew that those not given to Him by the Father would not let themselves be gathered.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.


These verses should knock out the myth of free will.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

my advice remains the same . I would not follow calvin to burger king . Nor many others . TIME WE BIBLE UP my friend

I was not advocating following John Calvin

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

These verses should knock out the myth of free will.

And yet... they do not.


Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

 

[Marvelloustime]

GOD predetermined JESUS WOULD BE the CURE unto all who do BELIEVE .
That was what was pre determined .
You see , JESUS did not weep over jersualem and say , HOW often would i have gathered you
only YOU WERE PRE DETERMINED TO REJECT ME . NO HE SAID ONLY YE WOULD NOT . YE WOULD NOT .
and how often through the prophets did GOD warn the wicked and say
WHY WILL YE DIE . I DO NOT DESIRE YOUR DEATH , the death of the wicked but rather YE REPENT .
NOTICE again HE DID NOT SAY to them , OH YE WERE PRE DETERMINED TO DIE . NO HE SAID I HAVE NO DESIRE IN THE DEATH
o the wicked but rather they REPENT . Calvin is a pharce . Just a super friendly reminder to all
who have ears to hear and eyes to see .

 

[JBO]

These verses should knock out the myth of free will.

Just one more falsehood promoted by Calvinism/Reformed Theology. Without free will, there could be no sin. To sin is a choice. If sin is not a choice, then it is God who causes the sin. That cannot be. God's righteousness is absolute; He cannot cause anyone to sin.

 

[JBO]

Transliteration
prognōsis (Key)
Pronunciation
prog'-no-sis

1. foreknowledge
2. forethought, pre-arrangement

Learn some greek so you will not write foolish things.

Your transliteration of the Greek word proginosko is much like the Catholic transliteration of the Greek word baptidzo meaning to immerse to somehow interpret it to mean pour or sprinkle. It is simply wrong. Biblical translation/interpretation is not about transliteration.

The Greek word πρόγνωσις [prognōsis] does not mean pre-arrangement no matter what the English word prognosis means. The Greek word πρόγνωσις [prognōsis] means foreknowledge, i.e., knowledge of the future - PERIOD.

There is a perfectly good Greek word meaning predetermine or pre-arrange. It is προορίζω [proorizō].

Learn some Greek so you will not write or think such foolish things.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

I believe these 100%

1. Grace does teach. It has appeared to mankind, but has not been imparted to all mankind.

2. The word not willing, in the original language God inspired is a strong desire.

3. Yes He does, but a command given also means that men will not obey and the verses I listed show why they will not obey.

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me.

Absolutely true! But as Jesus said in chapter 6 they cannot come to Jesus unless the Father draw them. So if you believe this verse as you wrote it here- you have to be a universalist.

But now go leant the different meanings of all in the greek and the differing words used.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Absolutely! but onl;y the elect have that tasted death, applied to their account.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life

This has nothing to do with free will/predestination. It is a simple generic statement . It is: IF A then B. Instead of listing everyone who gets saved- Jesus simply said whoever does A then B happens.

 

[Robert Pate]

Just one more falsehood promoted by Calvinism/Reformed Theology. Without free will, there could be no sin. To sin is a choice. If sin is not a choice, then it is God who causes the sin. That cannot be. God's righteousness is absolute; He cannot cause anyone to sin.

Calvinists believe that God hates them and the world.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Just one more falsehood promoted by Calvinism/Reformed Theology. Without free will, there could be no sin. To sin is a choice. If sin is not a choice, then it is God who causes the sin. That cannot be. God's righteousness is absolute; He cannot cause anyone to sin.

There was free will, and it was lost. NOw mankind is born with a fallen nature. So we sin because we are born sinners and thus lost! You should read Romans 6 and realize slaves have no free will but must serve their masters! they can't just pick upi and leave when they want or quit working when they feel like it - their is harsh punishment for that.

Men are either slaves to sin, or slaves to God by virtuye of being born again.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Your transliteration of the Greek word proginosko is much like the Catholic transliteration of the Greek word baptidzo meaning to immerse to somehow interpret it to mean pour or sprinkle. It is simply wrong. Biblical translation/interpretation is not about transliteration.

The Greek word πρόγνωσις [prognōsis] does not mean pre-arrangement no matter what the English word prognosis means. The Greek word πρόγνωσις [prognōsis] means foreknowledge, i.e., knowledge of the future - PERIOD.

There is a perfectly good Greek word meaning predetermine or pre-arrange. It is προορίζω [proorizō].

Learn some Greek so you will not write or think such foolish things.

Well seeing as I took Greek in bible College, have Greek parsing guides and dictionary books and online tools, and use some of the most renowned Greek scholars recognized by most believing Christians, I take your woeful accusations as irrelavent and inane.

I took all my writing of proginosko straight from Greek tools, if you recognized they were cut and pasted.

And your prepubescent ad-hominem comparing how I referred to Greek experts on pre-ginosko as akin to the RCC is just a useless ad-hominem.

but I have noticed all you have done is say I am wrong and as of yet failed to show any substantial evidence as to why I am wrong. All you have done is offer opinion without reference or source.

So why should I believe you over people who have PHD's in KOINE Gree? And the training I had in Greek in College?

How much formal training in Koine greek do you have?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Calvinists believe that God hates them and the world.

Repeat that lie three times, while tapping your heels and maybe you and TOTO will get back to Kansas!

 

[Robert Pate]

Repeat that lie three times, while tapping your heels and maybe you and TOTO will get back to Kansas!

If you believed that God loves you, you would call on hm to save you, "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13. Instead, you want to believe that God is a cruel, unjust, unrighteous tyrant that delights in sending people to hell before they are born. You would rather go to hell than to trust in him for your salvation.

 

[JBO]

Well seeing as I took Greek in bible College, have Greek parsing guides and dictionary books and online tools, and use some of the most renowned Greek scholars recognized by most believing Christians, I take your woeful accusations as irrelavent and inane.

I took all my writing of proginosko straight from Greek tools, if you recognized they were cut and pasted.

And your prepubescent ad-hominem comparing how I referred to Greek experts on pre-ginosko as akin to the RCC is just a useless ad-hominem.

but I have noticed all you have done is say I am wrong and as of yet failed to show any substantial evidence as to why I am wrong. All you have done is offer opinion without reference or source.

So why should I believe you over people who have PHD's in KOINE Gree? And the training I had in Greek in College?

How much formal training in Koine greek do you have?

And I also took Greek in bible college, have Greek parsing guides and dictionary books and online tools and some of the renowned Greek scholars. I take your woeful accusations as irrelevant and inane. I admit that my college years were longer ago than I care to think about.

However, one of those in the bible college at the same time I addended continued on to earn an M.Div. from Westminster Theological Seminary and a Ph.D. from Princeton Theological Seminary. He, through the years since, has been a main stay for me in theology Though he passed away in 2022, I knew him personally and knew him to be deeply faithful Christian and a bible college professor and scholar in theoloogy and in Koine Greek. I trust him far above anything you might provide. And that is particularly significant given that Westminster Theological Seminary is predominately a Reformed Theology institution.

 

[JBO]

There was free will, and it was lost. NOw mankind is born with a fallen nature. So we sin because we are born sinners and thus lost!

That is simply false. The doctrine of traducianism which you adhere to is simply false. God does not and would not impute the sin of one to another. To do so would be the grossest of injustice. God gave us an entire chapter in Ezekiel to dispute that false doctrine. And there are a number of other passages which thoroughly rebut that doctrine. We are sinners because we have sinned.