Why do some people not like the idea of OSAS?

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Ritajanice

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Oh, how I wish my conversations were face-to-face so I am be sure of the question. See, I thought I had already answered this, but I apparently did not.

When you were called by God to see His Son, that results in your faith. I suppose you could call that a "manifestation of the Spirit." We are speak according to how our minds work.
I wasn’t called...I was predestined/ chosen to be Born Again
Your faith manifests itself in seeking truth from God, which He will provide to those who diligently seek it. That truth this manifests itself as obedience and the ability to walk according to God's spirit.

Not my faith God given faith, that manifests itself in the spirit of his children..it was the seed we received when we become Born Again.” Gods Seed” the Living Holy Spirit.....there his Living word takes root, grows and matures as God had planned it to do so before the foundation of the world
faith has manifested it
God's spirit in you serves to prepare you for the transition from your mortal self to your glorious self. When that happens, you are "born again" with a body that will not sin. It will no longer contain the fallen nature that all of us on Earth have to squelch in order to follow Christ. That indwelling spirit is an imperishable seed that ultimately leads us, if we don't give up, to a new glorified immortal body. That is when we are born again. Until then, we are "being saved."
I’m already Born Again...we can’t give up because our spirit has been Born Again of imperishable seed that liveth and abideth forever in our heart/ spirit.

When we die in this body..we will receive resurrected bodies just like Jesus..why, because we are the Born Again.
 

Spyder

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I wasn’t called...I was predestined/ chosen to be Born Again


Not my faith God given faith, that manifests itself in the spirit of his children..it was the seed we received when we become Born Again.” Gods Seed” the Living Holy Spirit.....there his Living word takes root, grows and matures as God had planned it to do so before the foundation of the world


I’m already Born Again...we can’t give up because our spirit has been Born Again of imperishable seed that liveth and abideth forever in our heart/ spirit.

When we die in this body..we will receive resurrected bodies just like Jesus..why, because we are the Born Again.
Well, then, that concludes our conversation. May God bless you in your studies.
 

mailmandan

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Thank you for your response, brother. However, I still don't see an answer explaining why we have a multitude of verses warning up to endure to the end and to be obedient if we love Christ Jesus. Am I to infer that you think that no conscious effort from us is required? I think Paul had to address that attitude with the Romans.

Ro 6:1–4 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

One of the issues with our understanding is that so many think that they are already "saved." The term is no in the past tense - it is in the present. We are "being saved." It is a life-long process that requires we "work out our salvation." Yes, we are justified by God's mercy when we come to belief in God and in His Son. God provides grace for us afterwards.

But, we don't stop there. We are expected to walk in truth - be sanctified. We ask God for truth (sadly some don't pursue truth from God but from man). Jesus, in His "High Priestly Prayer" said:

Jn 17:15–19 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.

While we live after justification, we are expected to be sanctified by the grace of God in learning truth. It is that truth that helps us to walk in faith for the times that trials come upon us.

Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.

Do you not see the conditional statement here? Or should I phrase the question: What if he does not stand the test?
We must not confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture. The end result culminates in salvation by works. There are also multiple passages of scripture that support eternal security of the believer. We need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine.

There are 3 tenses to salvation in scripture that often get mixed up.

1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification)
2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing or progressive sanctification)
3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

In regard to crown of life, there are actually 5 crowns mentioned in scripture.

1. The imperishable crown (1 Corinthians 9:24-25)
2. The crown of rejoicing (1 Thessalonians 2:19
3. The crown of righteousness (2 Timothy 4:8)
4. The crown of glory. (1 Peter 5:4)
5. The crown of life. (James 1:12; Revelation 2:10)

An improper interpretation of "crown of life" may easily culminate in salvation by works. Revelation 2:10 for example is meant to be an encouraging statement from the Lord to Christians at the church of Smyrna who were being persecuted, even to the point of death. Jesus was not telling these Christians that if they are not "faithful enough" in addition to having faith in Him that they will not receive eternal life. That is salvation by works. The Lord was telling them that they will receive the crown of life after death, be faithful, hang in there!

In the very next verse, Jesus said - "He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." 1 John 5:4, we read - "For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. ONLY BELIEVERS are saved, overcome, and are faithful unto death. In regard to conditional statements in scripture, it's important to realize there are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.

We see conditional statements throughout scripture which set up a contrast and confirmation. Example: 1 John 1:6 - If we say (key word) that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. Confirmed child of the devil.

7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Confirmed child of God.

Elsewhere John sets up another condition, contrast, confirmation. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9) (descriptive of a child of God) is in contrast to - If we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8) and - If we say that we have not sinned, (past tense) we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:10) - descriptive of a child of the devil.

Also, in 1 John 3:7-10, we see the same condition, contrast, confirmation. 7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin continually, because he has been born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. *Also see 1 John 2:9-11.

Furthermore, in 1 John 4:7-8, we also see this same condition, contrast, confirmation. Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. Notice in James 1:12 that the crown of life is promised by God to those who love Him. Who does that describe? Children of God or children of the devil?
 

mailmandan

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Because nobody is "saved" until they endure to the end of their lives. While nobody can snatch us our of God's hand, we CAN "jump ship". I know there are those who claim that those dogs who return to their own vomit were not "saved" to begin with. There is zero ways to prove that.
I don't see the words "jump ship" in John 10:27-28. In John 10:27-28, we read - My sheep hear My voice, (not some of them hear His voice and some of them don't hear His voice) and I know them, (not some of them He knows and some of them He doesn't know) and they follow Me. (not some of them follow Him and some of them don't follow Him) And I give them eternal life, (not some of them He gives eternal life and some of them He doesn't give eternal life) and they shall never perish; (not some of them will never perish and some of them will perish) neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. (not some of them will never be snatched out of His hand and some of them will be snatched out of His hand)

In CONTRAST with those do not believe and are not His sheep. (John 10:25-26)

In regard to dogs returning to their own vomit in 2 Peter 2:22, those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome.

*Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature." Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment. Judas Iscariot is a good example of someone who rejected the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ yet was never saved. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)
 

Spyder

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I don't see the words "jump ship" in John 10:27-28. In John 10:27-28, we read - My sheep hear My voice, (not some of them hear His voice and some of them don't hear His voice) and I know them, (not some of them He knows and some of them He doesn't know) and they follow Me. (not some of them follow Him and some of them don't follow Him) And I give them eternal life, (not some of them He gives eternal life and some of them He doesn't give eternal life) and they shall never perish; (not some of them will never perish and some of them will perish) neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. (not some of them will never be snatched out of His hand and some of them will be snatched out of His hand)

In CONTRAST with those do not believe and are not His sheep. (John 10:25-26)

In regard to dogs returning to their own vomit in 2 Peter 2:22, those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome.

*Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature." Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment. Judas Iscariot is a good example of someone who rejected the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ yet was never saved. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)
I don't think your response addresses my position at all.

I suppose that somehow, people like Bart Ehrman and Charles Templeton were not sheep? They were never justified before they "jumped ship?" Yet, there are many here believe in the trinity though that term is not found in scripture either.
 

mailmandan

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So you prefer Eternal INsecurity? Why?
Fear and bondage to IN-security is no way to live the Christian life. Prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I had absolutely no assurance of salvation, believed in NOSAS and was miserable! After my conversion, I got off that roller coaster ride of fear and bondage to IN-security and never looked back.
 

mailmandan

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I don't think your response addresses my position at all.

I suppose that somehow, people like Bart Ehrman and Charles Templeton were not sheep? They were never justified before they "jumped ship?" Yet, there are many here believe in the trinity though that term is not found in scripture either.
Only God infallibly knows the hearts of men. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but only Jesus truly knew his heart.

In regard to being justified, in Romans 8:30, we read - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them.

Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty. If one does not end up glorified, then they were never justified.
 
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Raccoon1010

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I don't think your response addresses my position at all.

I suppose that somehow, people like Bart Ehrman and Charles Templeton were not sheep? They were never justified before they "jumped ship?" Yet, there are many here believe in the trinity though that term is not found in scripture either.
I've studied both positions of those that think they will be saved by the law after receiving forgiveness and those that see a deeper understanding of scripture and are aware they cannot fulfill the law even after being forgiven.

Jesus was being good and righteous when he told people to obey the commandments as anything else would be evil and corrupt. He even told us to be perfect as heavenly Father is perfect. Can we be forgiven and walk in perfection.

He also told us the parable of the tax collector and Pharisee. In that we learn that the sinner asking for mercy was more justified. Hmm, some people never see the truth and think they can earn salvation in some way.

But all the scriptures don't tell us that people are saved by asking for mercy as a sinner or trying to obey the law after forgiveness. What the scriptures tell us is that God will decide who is saved and who is not. Therefore I don't boast in my salvation and tell people I'm saved, when in fact I cannot save myself. And saving one's self is the lie of both sides of this debate. Some believe they are saved by faith, while others the law.

And what all of this tells me is that we should approach God humbly seeking mercy and forgiveness. Not boasting of our success in faith or works.
 

JBO

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So you prefer Eternal INsecurity? Why?

/
Not OSAS is not insecurity. The non-Calvin types professing OSAS typically tout free will except after having been saved. OSAS is not a requirement for eternal security. Salvation is by grace through faith and security is by grace through faith.
 
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Ritajanice

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John 15

King James Version

15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.
22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.
23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
 

JohnD

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OK, some translations say will forgive, others say might forgive. Either way, it supports "work out our salvation with fear and trembling."

I see from that the given warnings to walk in the spirit and endure to the end is still applicable. Is there something I am missing?
Forgive:
863 ἀφίημι, ἐναφίημι [aphiemi /af·ee·ay·mee/] v. From 575 and hiemi (to send, an intens. form of eimi, to go); TDNT 1:509; TDNTA 88; GK 918 and 1889; 146 occurrences; AV translates as “leave” 52 times, “forgive” 47 times, “suffer” 14 times, “let” eight times, “forsake” six times, “let alone” six times, and translated miscellaneously 13 times. 1 to send away. 1A to bid going away or depart. 1A1 of a husband divorcing his wife. 1B to send forth, yield up, to expire. 1C to let go, let alone, let be. 1C1 to disregard. 1C2 to leave, not to discuss now, (a topic). 1C21 of teachers, writers and speakers. 1C3 to omit, neglect. 1D to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit. 1E to give up, keep no longer. 2 to permit, allow, not to hinder, to give up a thing to a person. 3 to leave, go way from one. 3A in order to go to another place. 3B to depart from any one. 3C to depart from one and leave him to himself so that all mutual claims are abandoned. 3D to desert wrongfully. 3E to go away leaving something behind. 3F to leave one by not taking him as a companion. 3G to leave on dying, leave behind one. 3H to leave so that what is left may remain, leave remaining. 3I abandon, leave destitute.

Is in the Greek imperfect tense.

The imperfect tense (Greek παρατατικός (paratatikós) "for prolonging", from παρατείνω (parateínō) "prolong") is used in the indicative mood only. It often indicates a continuing situation in the past, rather than an event.

Confessing (homologeo = to come along side) meaning to admit and agree with God... we regain our fellowship with God's ongoing forgiveness (which never ceased). Confessing our sins is for our benefit. We separate ourselves from God and his love by our sin but that does not mean we lost our salvation (only our fellowship with the God who saves us ongoingly). ← bad grammar on my part but indicative of salvation.

If we confess our sins (to God see Psalm 51:4) he is already faithful and already just to already be forgiving our sins...

Once saved, because of God's love and abilities, always saved. His guarantees:
  • John 10:27-29
  • 1 John 2:19
  • 1 Corinthians 5:5
  • Jeremiah 32:40
  • John 3:16-18
  • John 6:29
  • John 16:27
 

RedFan

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The imperfect tense (Greek παρατατικός (paratatikós) "for prolonging", from παρατείνω (parateínō) "prolong") is used in the indicative mood only. It often indicates a continuing situation in the past, rather than an event.
True. But why does this matter to your argument?
 

MA2444

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Why do some people not like the idea of OSAS?

It's not that, I love the idea! But there are a lot of warnings in scripture about different things and it seems to stress, it is a Narrow Path and not many find it...

Matthew 7:13-14
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it...KJV

There is a warning in both verses, see that? It doesn't say receive me into your heart and then sit on your blessed assurance and watch TV until I come. We have responsibility to cultivate a relationship with the Lord Jesus Himself. By reading about Him, and letting Him speak to us through His Word, and by talking His ear off in Prayer and seeking Him and Knowledge of Him before He manifests Himself to us. Believe. Not the hollow cliche word but real belief. Lord help our unbelief.

What exactly is Belief? It is more than faith. With Belief, there is a connotation of action involve. Example: Peter, Believed as he was climbing out of the boat and commiting his weight to the water in trust of the Lord, who was right there! So belief can sorta mean taking a risk. Not, having faith, but stepping out in Faith or acting in faith and activating it and demonstrating it through your actions somehow. Walking in faith.

That's how I see it.

I look back on my life, and I get urges to be proud of myself when I think of the successful company that I built and ran for my Family while the kids were growing up...But that's wrong I now realize! I never did anything or made any money. It was all the Lord.

Sure, He gave me the Talent(s) and skills to be able to learn it and I had been used to leaving it there and picking up my pride by thinking I did something! Noy only did the Lord bless me with the Talent and skills, but He also provided all of the necessary tools and stuff, and even the oppurtunity to get the customers who needed help and would pay. It was the Lord. It is the Lord! It Is The Lord!! I didn't do anything. He was with me the whole time. And I still failed horribly, by my reckoning. I was not the spiritual leader of my home like I was charged to be. I did some good with my actions perhaps a few times. But I failed way more than I did right, lol.

But I have managed to read His word enough (not!) and talk His ear off so much for so long that I was impossible to ignore! So the Lord began helping me and blessing me and even doing some miracles for me. I have heard the audible voice of God one time, and the still small voice many times, but I have never seen Him yet (That I can recall!).

It's a narrow path. People like to say, well I had to go to work so I can't be praying all day, that's Impossible! But if you are not in the presence of God at all times and aware of His presence...then you have walked away from the Lord? What if He came right then? WOuld I make it?

Wouldn't it be great to be praying at the exact moment that Jesus shows up for the Rapture?!!! It is not that hard to be aware of God's presence with you at all times and be praying and being led by the Holy Spirit at all times. It's not impossible, so I fear it IS something that we must do...

Or so it seems to me.
 

MA2444

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There is a warning in both verses, see that? It doesn't say receive me into your heart and then sit on your blessed assurance and watch TV until I come. We have responsibility to cultivate a relationship with the Lord Jesus Himself. By reading about Him, and letting Him speak to us through His Word, and by talking His ear off in Prayer

Look at it this way, If you talk to Jesus so much and put the bug in His ear about everything (!!) He will respond to you and to your faith and belief...and then how could He say that I never knew you? Oh yes, I knew you. You're the talkative one!

To some that He will have to say, I never knew you...that's a serious warning!
 
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Wouldn't it be great to be praying at the exact moment that Jesus shows up for the Rapture?!!!
At my old age it would be wonderful to pray and contemplate These Very Words At
"The Very Moment" of God's Great GRACE Departure!

"For The Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of​
the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:​
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the​
clouds, to meet The Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with The Lord. Wherefore​
Comfort one another with These Words." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18)​

Meanwhile, the { o.s.a.s ) Truth Of God's Eternal Salvation is for those new babes In Christ,
who may just Be Confused by focusing mainly on the few Misunderstood obscure / difficult
'Warning' Passages, and not remembering that:

"All Scripture Is Given By Inspiration and Is Profitable..." (2Ti 3:16)​

Therefore, we kindly and humbly ask them to take some time to prayerfully and Carefully
'focus' on The Following Multitude Of Plain And Clear Scriptures...:

God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST
+ Update
+
God's Eternal Assurance
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance

...in order to Solve all of the Confusion. Amen?

Amen.
 
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RedFan

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Meanwhile, the { o.s.a.s ) Truth Of God's Eternal Salvation is for those new babes In Christ,
who may just Be Confused by focusing mainly on the few Misunderstood obscure / difficult
'Warning' Passages, and not remembering that:

"All Scripture Is Given By Inspiration and Is Profitable..." (2Ti 3:16)
Therefore, we kindly and humbly ask them to take some time to prayerfully and Carefully
'focus' on The Following Multitude Of Plain And Clear Scriptures...:

God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST
+ Update
+
God's Eternal Assurance
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance

...in order to Solve all of the Confusion. Amen?
Help me with this, please. You've quoted from 2 Tim. 3:16 ("All Scripture Is Given By Inspiration and Is Profitable...") and followed it with "Therefore . . ." By using "therefore," are you suggesting that the links which follow -- 100% of which quote from the NT, not the OT -- are profitable because the NT is within the scope of "Scripture" as used in 1 Tim. 3:16?

Let me be clear: My question is NOT whether the New Testament is inspired and profitable. My question is, do you interpret 2 Tim. 3:16 to say so?
 

GRACE ambassador

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My question is NOT whether the New Testament is inspired and profitable. My question is, do you interpret 2 Tim. 3:16 to say so?
Precious friend, thanks for the question; I don't interpret 2 Timothy 3:16, I just accept It and believe
It, As It Is Written, Plain and Clear.

Hope this helps...
 

RedFan

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Precious friend, thanks for the question; I don't interpret 2 Timothy 3:16, I just accept It and believe
It, As It Is Written, Plain and Clear.

Hope this helps...
Okay, I will pose my question in your terms: Do you "believe" that 2 Tim. 3:16, "as it is written, plain and clear," includes the NT within the meaning of "Scripture"?
 
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