Spiritual revelation is required to believe spiritual truths

[rand]

We don't have to ask the spirit for something He already said He'd give. We only have to open ourselves up to the Holy Spirit so He can do what He's already been trying to do: guide.

 

[us2are1]

We don't have to ask the spirit for something He already said He'd give. We only have to open ourselves up to the Holy Spirit so He can do what He's already been trying to do: guide.

If you don't ask you don't receive.

7 "Keep asking, and it will be given to you; keep seeking, and you will find; keep knocking, and the door will be opened to you.

13 So if you, even though you are bad, know how to give your children gifts that are good, how much more will the Father keep giving the Ruach HaKodesh from heaven to those who keep asking him!"

 

[gregg]

ask

 

[Xian Pugilist]

The problem is, you get a buncha egocentric people who claim they are taught by the Spirit, so no matter what scripture says or you show them, they can stick to their bigoted views and will look down their nose at you because YOU DISAGREE SO YOU DO NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT!

If someone relies on this argument, dwells on this topic, whatever... to back up their claims, then they don't have confidence in their claims. We call it an appeal to authority.

I don't think the person with Spiritual assistance in their comprehension will be insecure enough to bring this topic up in a chat....

So, I agree with the OP, but am not sure to its relevance.

We don't have to ask the spirit for something He already said He'd give. We only have to open ourselves up to the Holy Spirit so He can do what He's already been trying to do: guide.

Do you mean this for the Spirit working WITH YOU? ON YOU? IN YOU? FOR YOU? All of those are different ways in scripture that the Spirit of God will affect us. People claim INDWELLING because that's all they have ever heard. Scripture says not many of us in this chat are indwelled, yet.

 

[martinlawrencescott]

I can't knock that, it's up to us to determine each other's faith from the outside, but only the indwelling is the proof given to us by God to know who really is or isn't. Do our best, and forgive and receive forgiveness when our works don't reflect the beauty inside.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

I can't knock that, it's up to us to determine each other's faith from the outside, but only the indwelling is the proof given to us by God to know who really is or isn't. Do our best, and forgive and receive forgiveness when our works don't reflect the beauty inside.

How do you read Rom 8:9A?

 

[martinlawrencescott]

It means I am not flesh but Spirit. That that is who I am. I have flesh, but I am a spirit inside myself, and I have been reborn in Christ and His Spirit. Ya, I see where you're going here. Nice work.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

It means I am not flesh but Spirit. That that is who I am. I have flesh, but I am a spirit inside myself, and I have been reborn in Christ and His Spirit. Ya, I see where you're going here. Nice work.

Ok, I'm contrasting your views with mine here... not jumping you for your beliefs... let's play through this...

As I understand it, I can't make the claim I am born again. What scripture says occurs if you are IN HIM, in the spirit not the flesh, I am honest enough to admit I am not there... IN HIM see 1 john 3:6. That flesh that you say is gone..... is the flesh that Paul said makes folks do what he doesn't wanna do and not do what he wanted to do, and, quite frankly, I still fall prey to that, so it's apparently still there....

 

[martinlawrencescott]

In Him usually has to do with fellowship. If you can be in him, you can go out of him, and it's not talking about salvation in this point. When He is in you, however, you're pretty much set in stone/writing whatever. You would have to blaspheme the Holy Spirit in order to damn yourself at that point. Ya, our flesh is still here, the enemy camp inside us was invaded and the main ground "the capital", so to speak, has been taken and given new life. Again, you can relate that to when Israel inherited the promise land, and the amount of territory they needed to capture after they first settled. They were definitely "in the promised land", just as we are set in "a spiritual promised land" a moment after Jesus saves us, however the rest of the territory within us still needs to be taken back or healed, and made new (sanctification). The spirit inside us is the new person, if it was already in there, it was dead, or separated from God.

I guess I can state which scripture has to do with what I believe here. Might take me a while to do it, concerning fellowship vs. salvation and why both are here, etc.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

Argh, I dont see how you can say that , but I don't see that it matters either..

However, scripture says point blank, no funny word play, that if the spirit indwells you, you are no longer in the flesh. If you are no longer in the flesh/sinful nature, how can you say its still there without redacting this verse?

Its consistent with paul to read it as being gone..... col 2:11 has it removed by a circumcision done by Christ. Now, in case you aren't familiar, and I don't wanna know either way, a circumcision doesn't grow back too often. And never if the doc isn't on drugs for the procedure....

The its no longer me who lives but he who lives me shows a complete separation, as does rom 8:5. And Ican go on.....

Argh, I dont see how you can say that , but I don't see that it matters either..

However, scripture says point blank, no funny word play, that if the spirit indwells you, you are no longer in the flesh. If you are no longer in the flesh/sinful nature, how can you say its still there without redacting this verse?

Its consistent with paul to read it as being gone..... col 2:11 has it removed by a circumcision done by Christ. Now, in case you aren't familiar, and I don't wanna know either way, a circumcision doesn't grow back too often. And never if the doc isn't on drugs for the procedure....

The its no longer me who lives but he who lives me shows a complete separation, as does rom 8:5. And Ican go on.....

 

[martinlawrencescott]

Mine never grew back... which has to do, in part... with my point... *cough* (I hate thinking about that). The thing is, I believe that circumcision is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, that THAT is the point of salvation. "It is no longer me who lives but Christ who lives in me," but I can live in either Christ or in my flesh after this point and fact. Like you and I will admit (and related to each other), we still struggle with our flesh, but we're Christians. So, there's another theme at work here. If you can, go and look up the difference between the offerings in the OT. Most specifically the Fellowship offering and the Sin offering and the difference in sacrifice between the two. You can relate this all the way back. I'm not sure you can do that with a strictly salvation w/out fellowship theological view. I might be able to rationalize it all the way to the end without the scripture study as well, because it just makes sense.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

Mine never grew back... which has to do, in part... with my point... *cough* (I hate thinking about that). The thing is, I believe that circumcision is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, that THAT is the point of salvation.

I see grace/atonement before the indwelling. That would be a milk person. After a while of growth, they eat meat, somewhere in there. The meat metaphor is what I think Paul uses for the person who has gone through the changing and has the Spirit in them, the flesh has been circumcised, so it's GONE, the Spirit takes the place of it.

You have King Sarx who has made a castle out of your personage. He's helped it grow, kept it alive, kept it pleasured all of your life. He has a very vested interest in this Castle. The Spirit is outside the walls, in communication with you, and you are like the French Resistance. You battle, confront, win some, lose some, learn some, win more, lose less and eventually Christ reaches in and just cuts King Sarx out of the picture. The Castle is vacant, The Spirit comes in takes up residence and makes it a Temple to God. Hell, I should make a play out of that. Anyway, the point is, the flesh has to be gone before the Spirit comes in. Once it's in it's there permanent.

Take Gal 5:16, if you walk by the Spirit you won't give into the temptations of the flesh.
If you ever walked by the Spirit one time, to STOP would mean you gave into a temptation. But it says the Spirit won't let you. Everyone looks at this as what they can do, but it's about what HE can do.

"It is no longer me who lives but Christ who lives in me," but I can live in either Christ or in my flesh after this point and fact.

Terms like slavery, belong to, etc tell me it's a one time deal. Romans 8:5 says whichever you belong to, the flesh or His Spirit you obey. If you bounce back and forth you aren't obeying.

Like you and I will admit (and related to each other), we still struggle with our flesh, but we're Christians. So, there's another theme at work here. If you can, go and look up the difference between the offerings in the OT. Most specifically the Fellowship offering and the Sin offering and the difference in sacrifice between the two. You can relate this all the way back. I'm not sure you can do that with a strictly salvation w/out fellowship theological view. I might be able to rationalize it all the way to the end without the scripture study as well, because it just makes sense.

I do agree a lot on the fellowship thing, but from a 1 john 1 perspective. And the result is a maturity level where you do not sin anymore.... I can't make that claim.

 

[John Zain]

People claim INDWELLING because that's all they have ever heard. Scripture says not many of us in this chat are indwelled, yet.

Don't you believe ALL of those NT verses that say (born-again) believers
have the Holy Spirit INSIDE of them?

 

[Xian Pugilist]

Don't you believe ALL of those NT verses that say (born-again) believers
have the Holy Spirit INSIDE of them?

I believe every word in the Bible. I take it much more literally than you do. I'm not judging nor slapping you, I just know from what you've said elsewhere the examples to back up that confident statement.

My problem isn't what the bible says. Its what you think it says vs what it says. :) I can't help it man this is all sounding much cattier than I'm feeling it....

There isn't a verse that says you are born again if the Spirit is inside of you. But there is one that says if the Spirit is inside of you, that thing that makes you do what you don't wanna do and not do what you wanna do that Paul called the flesh is NOT there. AND there is a verse that says if that Spirit is there/your life is by the Spirit, you don't give into temptation. Do you believe those verses? Or are we going to change them to meet our theology?

I grew up SBC. I had to change my theology to meet the scripture.

So show me a verse that says a born again believer has the spirit indwelling. There isn't one. Not a one. WHAT YOU CAN DO, is find verses that you think reference a born again believer, that says the spirit is indwelling. But that assumes you have the right idea/definition of born again believer.

What the Church today teaches is "born again", has only existed 150 years in the Church. What does that tell you?

 

[martinlawrencescott]

Thanks John Z, you take Xian to court! ;)

Anyway, I think the key word is struggle. Once the Holy Spirit is inside you, this-

[sup]14 [/sup]We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. [sup]15 [/sup]I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. [sup]16 [/sup]And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. [sup]17 [/sup]As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. [sup]18 [/sup]For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[sup][c][/sup] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. [sup]19 [/sup]For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. [sup]20 [/sup]Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it

[sup]21 [/sup]So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. [sup]22 [/sup]For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; [sup]23 [/sup]but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. [sup]24 [/sup]What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? [sup]25 [/sup]Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[sup][d][/sup] a slave to the law of sin.

The key words are "with me". This can't be a picture of a non Christian, or else I would want to do what I want to do, and I would never do, unless forced to, what I don't want to do. As far as I know there isn't a time of limbo for a Christian between salvation and un...salvation (non saved). So the war inside us must occur after the point of salvation. The war inside us couldn't occur unless there are 2 sides of the battle going on. As far as I know, that struggle doesn't occur in non believers. I believe this sanctification occurs until our earthly ministry is over.

 

[John Zain]

There isn't a verse that says you are born again if the Spirit is inside of you.

Okay, so what did Jesus mean when He said twice that we must be born again?
How is this accomplished, what is the end result, etc.?

Sorry ... I didn't see your born-again thread.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

Okay, so what did Jesus mean when He said twice that we must be born again?
How is this accomplished, what is the end result, etc.?

Sorry ... I didn't see your born-again thread.

no need to be sorry, we are just talking. The fact we don't agree on any of this only makes it a better discussion. :)

He meant you must be born from above. That the Spirit must become your life. An example was made of the Rich Young Ruler.

You understand that silly word PERFECT doesn't mean perfect, but means mature right?

I've commented on the RYR numerous times, Christ wanted him to become totally dependent on Christ to be mature, rather than have the means to provide for himself.

Rom 6:22 is the path as I see it.
Atonement from sin, freed from sin/being saved.
then struggle with obedience/ trials and tribulations.
THEN get a benefit, his seed 1 j 3:9, his Spirit gal 5:16, himself 1 john 5:18.
THAT leads to the finished result of sanctification.

You are saved but growing/running the race in romans 6.
You are told what it is that you fight against in Romans 7.
You are shown the answer and the goal in romans 8.

If you are indwelled by the Spirit you are no longer in the flesh.

That thing which makes you do and not do what you should and want to do is gone at the point the Spirit resides in you. It's gone permanently circumcised. Nothing is there to force you to sin anymore.

With the Spirit residing in you, and your life being driven by the Spirit not the flesh, you no longer give into temptations of the flesh. gal 5:16

So it's no longer YOU who lives (flesh is gone) but HE who lives in you (spirit resides)

Now, the sinless thing isn't the point, but it is A barometer.

1 john 4:16 is the MATURE or FINISHED product. When you love right He is in you and you are in Him. Without this you are nothing. So if you don't have the love right you aren't anything to do with Him. That's why those guys John's epistle was written to were not in fellowship with Him yet.... they didn't have the love right and thus still were sinning. 2:8 confirms this. The commandment which was old and new.. love neighbor was washing the darkness off of them, and when the darkness was gone they would be in fellowship with HIM.

So, you don't worry about sin you accept grace you run the race looking at GOD IS LOVE and trying to learn to love as He does which is a process that doesn't come from reading a book, ask any parent what book they had to read to learn to love their children, it comes from doing the loving works you were saved to do. So you start finding those works and do them. This is what the CHURCH is supposed to be leading us in, not theology. eph 4:11-18.

Through the works in those verses you are made perfect/mature which is the born again spot as I see it.

If you sincerely run the race you can't fail HE gets you there. HE does the changing.

But as matt 25 sheep and goats teaches us, if you aren't doing the love, which is demonstrated through works, then you aren't his no matter how much you hope, scream and pray that you are.

 

[martinlawrencescott]

I don't disagree with your end result concerning when sanctification is finished. But your term for sanctification is my term for Salvation, and your result of the sanctification is the same as mine. I'm saying the point of salvation happens before sanctification. I believe you no matter how much you hope, scream, etc. that you can't deny the Holy Spirit's work inside you, but only after salvation. I believe there is only one escape and that is the sin against the Holy Spirit. And that would fall under an intentional sin, so anyone wondering if they have done it, has not done it by default of the categories of sin and that this sin can't fall into ignorance. That's all I got for now. Let me know if you think we reached a standstill. We may have already hit an agree to disagree on this point.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

I am good with all of what you said here, at least as I understand it. Salvation comes first. While saved you run the race to sanctification. I think to go forward anymore we need to get out of the Big picture and go to specific exegetics. I'd start with 1 john.

But, I'm impressed that you have your arms around your faith as much as you do. It's refreshing to not just have cliche spitting emotional commenters. I don't like them because if I say something that they haven't pondered they are threatened and it causes dilemmas, but it also causes reactions.... I don't like making them worry that much.

I don't disagree with your end result concerning when sanctification is finished. But your term for sanctification is my term for Salvation, and your result of the sanctification is the same as mine. I'm saying the point of salvation happens before sanctification. I believe you no matter how much you hope, scream, etc. that you can't deny the Holy Spirit's work inside you, but only after salvation. I believe there is only one escape and that is the sin against the Holy Spirit. And that would fall under an intentional sin, so anyone wondering if they have done it, has not done it by default of the categories of sin and that this sin can't fall into ignorance. That's all I got for now. Let me know if you think we reached a standstill. We may have already hit an agree to disagree on this point.

 

[IanLC]

I believe there is no new revelation except that of the already written revealed word of God. I believed that the Holy Spirit can still inspire and illuminate text to gain a deepred understanding for the believer.