So what happens when one rejects the training and does evil works instead of good works?
Why do some people not like the idea of OSAS?
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So what happens when one rejects the training and does evil works instead of good works?
Calvinists believe this... so does Charles Stanley... considered to be THE authority on eternal security!
In his book, Eternal Security, Stanley says
"Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy” (Chapter 10, p. 93)
“Christ will not deny an unbelieving Christian his or her salvation because to do so would be to deny Himself” (p. 94).
“Believers who lose or abandon their faith will retain their salvation, for God remains faithful” (p. 94)
He actually taught one can be a "gay christian" and still go to Heaven proving he is a false teacher!
Here's a video where you can see video of Charlies saying this (just a few minutes into the video)
In this video, Gnarly Charlie says he's proud of Andy and supports him after heresy charges
Can a Person Live a Life of Sin and Remain Saved?
Then they are rejecting the content of God's gift of saving them from not doing evil works.
So they can live in sin... live like the devil... ans still go to Heaven?
That's what gnarly Charlie Stanley was saying, one can become a Christian and be gay and still be saved!
Imagine that!
Neither. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation as the result of having first obeyed it, the experience of being an obeyer of it is intrinsically the content of the gift of Jesus saving us from not having that experience.
The content of a gift can itself be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour, where the gift requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work has nothing to do with trying to earn the opportunity to drive it as the result. In a similar manner, the content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus (John 17:3) and the gift of God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 7:23).
No, Christianity is more about getting heaven into us than about going to heaven.
And the OSAS peoples falsely believe even if one lives in sin... they are still saved!
Indeed, someone who is living in sin is not being saved from living in sin.
BlessedPeace
Well-Known Member
Not true.Ever. Despite the scriptures being posted repeatedly,you ignore that fact.
MA2444
Well-Known Member
BlessedPeace
Well-Known Member
No,Dr.CharlesvStanley,RIP, never said that. Our resident atheist Troll slanders a dead pastor now. There is no depths to which evil will not plunge so to mock our faith.
Don’t Be Shocked by Jewish Honor for Anti-Gay Pastor Charles Stanley
Those are direct quotes from his book!
And if you watch that video about the lady saying her son was raised as a Christian now thinks he's gay... Charles Stanley straight up say the gay guy is still saved and will still go to Heaven.
This is all due to Charles Stanley being a wolf in sheep's clothing, a false teacher, a huckster!
Meaning, they are no longer in right standing with the Lord are are once again... back on the highway to hell.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
MA2444
Well-Known Member
I've been lstening to Charles Stanley's programs for years and years and never have I heard him say such a thing. I never did read any of his books so don't know about that. So if you could photocopy the book where it says that, or at least come out with name of book, chapter and page, that he said it, then I can read it for myself and go from there.
If you can't do that then you must be repeating something that you heard (and did not verify for yourself) which turns out to be wrong.
I have listened to the man for years, he's always been one of my favorite Pastors. So I listen to him. I have listened to so many of his messages that I have a grasp on the man's character and what you say he stands for does not sound like the character of the Charles Stanley that I know! So I suggest that you back up your despariging words about the man or else not go around repeating things you have heard.
Paul spoke about multiple categories of law other than the Law of God, such as the law of sin and works of the law, so it is important to correctly identify the law that he was referring to as not being under. For example, in Romans 7:25-8:2, he contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin and contrasted the Law of the Spirit with the law of sin and death. In Romans 3:27, he contrasted a law of works with a law of faith and in Romans 3:31 and Galatians 3:10-12, he contrasted a law that our faith upholds with a law that is not of faith. In other words, there is a category of law that we are under and one that we are not under.
The Law of God was given to lead us to do what is godly, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), so it is a law where holiness, righteousness, and goodness have dominion over us, however, Paul also spoke about the law of sin that stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death (Romans 7:5) that was leading him away from doing the good that he wanted to do, so the law of sin is a law where sin had dominion over us. In Romans 6:14, the law that Paul described as us not being under was a law where sin had dominion over us, so he was speaking a about not being under the law of sin, not the Law of God. Furthermore, in Romans 6:15, being under grace doesn't mean that we are permitted to sin, and sin is the transgression of the Law of God (1 John 3:4), so we are still under it, but are not under the law of sin.
Moreover, everything else in Romans 6 is in favor of obedience to God's law and against sin. For example, in Romans 6:19-23, we are no longer to present ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin, but are now to present ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so being an obeyer of the Law of God is the content of His gift of eternal life.
In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this is what it means to be under grace and this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.
Similarly, in Galatians 5:16-18, Paul spoke about the desires of the flesh causing us not to do the good that he wanted to do, which is how he described his struggle with the law of sin in Romans 7, so when we are led by the Spirit we are not under the law of sin. The Spirit is God, so it wouldn't make any sense to interpret Galatians 5:18 as saying that we aren't under the Law of God when we are led by the Spirit, especially when the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Law of God (Ezekiel 36:26-27) and of convicting us of sin in transgression of the Law of God (John 16:8).
So we are under the Law of God, but are not under the law of sin. We need to die to the law of sin in order to be free to obey the Law of God, not the other way around.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed post.
Do you believe that the "saved' have eternal security?
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You're welcome. I believe that nothing from the outside can pluck us from the Father's hand, but we can choose to remove ourselves. Our salvation is not something that is lost or regained every time that we sin or repent or that can be unintentionally lost, but is based on choosing to be an obeyer of God by grace through faith.
To use an analogy, there can be a house with unlimited electricity and we can be like a laptop that is eternally powered for as long our charger remains plugged into the outlet, but if we unplug ourselves, then we will eventually die. We need to remain in the vine to have eternal life and the branches that are cut off no longer have eternal life. There would not be verses that warn against turning away and losing our salvation if it were not possible to do. Again, if we recognize that our salvation is from continuing to live sin, then it is easy to recognize it is something that we can continue to be an obeyer of God or turn away from it.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Thanks.
There are biblically supported opposing views on this subject, obviously.
Here's my view, which you may have read before.
We cannot by an act of our own will undo what only God could do in the first place.
Even in the case of reprobation, it is God's choice, not ours.
And I believe his aim in reprobation is to bring back the lost sheep.
He is the Good Shepherd.
/
While I agree that Scripture can be used to support opposing views, I don't see the point of all of the verses that exhort us to continue to the end or that warn against falling away if that were not possible or if we don't have a choice in the matter. While God wants everyone to be saved, He also wants everyone to freely come to Him, so not even God gets all that He wants when it comes to wanting mutually exclusive things. In regard to Titus 2:11-13, being trained to do something clearly requires us to choose to participate.
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