Questions for Sabbatarians

[GracePeace]

Shalom, GracePeace.

No, not at all. Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") NEVER "overruled Torah" or "nullified His Father's commands!" Remember what I quoted above:

Matthew 5:17-20 (KJV)

17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil! 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."

It wasn't the "making" or the "keeping" of vows that was "of the evil one"; it was the "BREAKING of the vows" that was evil! They would make them and NOT keep them! THAT'S what He was fussing at them about!

Smoh ("Solomon") said,

Ecclesiastes 5:4 (KJV)

4 When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for he hath no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed.

Yeeshuwa` said,

Matthew 5:33-37 (KJV)

33 "Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, 'Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths': 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil."

He's simply making the point that it would be better not to make a vow at all, than to make a vow and break it. It's best just not to put oneself in that position. Just let your "yes" mean yes and your "no" mean no. It is from adding to those words from which comes evil.

Nope, James says the same--make no vow at all.

Anyway, in my experience, you guys are hard headed, so I'll just leave what I said there to help readers who might otherwise be led into your delusion.

Thanks for being an opportunity for me to share truth!

 

[BarneyFife]

Well of course... all those that don't adhere to the 7th Day Adventist religion are... "arrogant" by believing the New Testament instead of the instructions of Ellen G White.

None of which has anything to do with what you quoted from me.

It's rather odd that some aren't interested in the REST upgrade Jesus has brought forth, but apparently some folks like the old and aren't interested in the New

Call me a hog—I'm having my cake and eating it, too. For what Christ paid, it shouldn't go to waste.

.

 

[Retrobyter]

Nope, James says the same--make no vow at all.

Anyway, in my experience, you guys are hard headed, so I'll just leave what I said there to help readers who might otherwise be led into your delusion.

Thanks for being an opportunity for me to share truth!

Shalom, GracePeace.

(And, I wish you both.) You're welcome; I only wish you WERE sharing the truth.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, to those who are reading along.

One must understand that Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus'" REAL name in Hebrew [יֵשׁוּעַ]) would NEVER change His Father's Law! HE UPHELD His Father's Law! And, He FULFILLED His Father's Law, for "He became SIN for us (He who knew no sin)," and DIED AS OUR SIN! Now, through Him, we can be declared to be His Righteousness, just as He was our Sin! God the Father forgives us, not for our works of "righteousness" (which are just "filthy rags"), but for His own Son's sake! We are a TRIBUTE to His Son's Sacrifice! He is "haKeves Elohiym" - "the Lamb of God!"

So, if ANYONE tells you the lie that the Messiah of God CHANGED God's Law, please don't believe it for a second! He ESTABLISHED the Law, and then FULFILLED it, providing the path to God's righteousness for us.

The words "reconciled" and "reconciliation" come from the Greek words: "katallaxantos" and "katallagees," which are forms of the Greek verb "katallassoo" (I use an "oo" for an omega) and the noun "katallagee" (again, using "ee" for an eta).

2644 katallassoo (katallassó) καταλλάσσω (kat-al-las'-so). From kata and allassoo; to change mutually, i.e. (figuratively) to compound a difference:
-- reconcile.

2643 katallagee (katallagé) καταλλαγή, ῆς, ἡ (kat-al-lag-ay'). From katallassoo; exchange (figuratively, adjustment), i.e. Restoration to (the divine) favor:
-- atonement, reconciliation(-ing).

These words indicate a "MUTUAL EXCHANGE," a "TRANSFER" of parts in God's eyes!

2 Corinthians 5:14-21 (KJV)

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more. 17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ (who Himself has mutually exchanged places with us through the Messiah Yeeshuwa`), and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation (the service of mutually exchanging places); 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself (God Himself was in the Messiah, mutually exchanging places with the world), not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation (the message of mutually exchanging places.) 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God (mutually exchange places with God). 21 For he (God the Father) hath made him (the Messiah the Son of God) [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God (the Father) in him (the Messiah).

I hope that's not too confusing to you, but this is THE message of the Gospel that gives us the CONFIDENCE that we are forgiven on the Son's behalf. It's not for anything that we have done; it's ALL about what HE has done, and we're only the recipients because we've come to Him for His help in an otherwise impossible intervention on our behalf!

This is what some call "salvation"; I choose to call it by its biblical name, "Justification by God." Yeeshuwa` said,

Luke 18:9-14 (KJV)

9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,

"'God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men [are], extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.'

13 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as [his] eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying,

"'God be merciful to me a sinner.'

14 "I tell you, this man (the publican) went down to his house justified [rather] than the other (the Pharisee): for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

 

[Ghada]

yet you choose to submit yourselves to a woman teacher's doctrines (White's),

I keep reading from all these Christian sabbath-binders about how all the 'early Christians' kept sabbath.

Firstly, it's an obvious foil since the only record we can trust is the NT Bible. Secondly, even if a source is reliable, it only records an early church tradition, not a Bible mandate. Why is it that Christians are all too ready to discount old Jewish traditions without Bible support, and yet be blind to the simple fact that Christians do the same?

Other than Jews continuing to do according to the custom of meeting in Jewish synagogues, there is nothing in the NT about the Gentile converts ever doing so. Especially since they never would have been allowed entrance by the Jews-only zealots.

contrary to Scripture, which says Paul never permits a woman to teach me or exercise authority over them.

I don't know this White woman, but you are correct that Paul speaks specifically of women not teaching with authority over men. I.e. commandments, rules, church gvt, etc...

Are you saying that the first recorded sabbath commandment to Christians was by this White woman?

 

[GracePeace]

Shalom, to those who are reading along.

One must understand that Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus'" REAL name in Hebrew [יֵשׁוּעַ]) would NEVER change His Father's Law! HE UPHELD His Father's Law! And, He FULFILLED His Father's Law, for "He became SIN for us (He who knew no sin)," and DIED AS OUR SIN! Now, through Him, we can be declared to be His Righteousness, just as He was our Sin! God the Father forgives us, not for our works of "righteousness" (which are just "filthy rags"), but for His own Son's sake! We are a TRIBUTE to His Son's Sacrifice! He is "haKeves Elohiym" - "the Lamb of God!"

So, if ANYONE tells you the lie that the Messiah of God CHANGED God's Law, please don't believe it for a second! He ESTABLISHED the Law, and then FULFILLED it, providing the path to God's righteousness for us.

Clarification for the sake of the readers (I already know the ears of author are plugged and uninterested in any proof that he has erred in his study) :

Christ DID uphold the Law: the underlying Principle of "keep your vows" was "Do not treat God or His Name with disrespect, but honor Him by keeping your vows you make", and Christ, yes, preserves that underlying principle by calling vows "of the evil one", prohibiting taking any vow at all, because, He says, taking a vow ITSELF violates the Principle, showing a lack of honor due to God by taking too much honor upon yourself ("lest they should boast against Me").

He also defines Torah's "any-cause" divorce as "adultery" (going forward), and as a mere concession that had been given due to the hardness of those men's hearts. Remember, Christ was upset with men for their hardness of heart, and Heb 3 says it is the deceitfulness of sin that hardens one's heart--hardened hearts (for which this Torah Law had been given) are sinful unholy godless hearts. Hearts where the devil is active. They weren't born again, so they needed concessions. We don't.

Same goes for making and keeping vows--it was a concession. Torah is full of such concessions (eg, you can beat your slave to death as long as he doesn't die the same days but survives a few days, and then dies).

 

[Ghada]

"It might interest you to know that Mrs. White never formulated a doctrine in her life—never claimed to. She got Christian Sabbatarianism from a man who got it from the Seventh-day Baptists, an organization established over two centuries before there was any such thing as a Seventh-day Adventist."

This really says it all: Quite a twisted history of identifying the source for 'Christian Sabbatarianism'. It's usually the case when there's no Christian NT Bible for it.

A winding blinding road of tradition going way back to the 17th century. Wow. Impressive.

It's as convincing and fun as what 'Christian Sabbatarianism' day needs arguing about. We see how much of all such things is just for intellectual titillation.

And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

They spend much time on 'scholarly' study in something, that is as valid in life as digging up the 'lost tribes' of Israel. Only those mystery seekers don't make up a whole day to 'celebrate' it.

The nature of all made up sects, is to keep wrangling over their original legitimacy, and then to keep dividing itself over ever-dissected details.

He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

It is truly truly refreshing with peace of heart and mind to know, believe, and keep the plain and simple Bible.

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.

For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

 

[Ghada]

"It might interest you to know that Mrs. White never formulated a doctrine in her life—never claimed to. She got Christian Sabbatarianism from a man who got it from the Seventh-day Baptists, an organization established over two centuries before there was any such thing as a Seventh-day Adventist."

This deserves to begin every encounter with 'Christian Sabbatarians'. This really is all they got for legitimacy. A centuries old tradition.

Otherwise, what do these Sabbatarianismos have other than carnal pride? The OT law of Moses and some mystical 'pre-law' sabbath, when God rested from His works.

Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

If it weren't for their feigned humility while condemning innocent Christians, it would indeed just be a harmless sideshow of certain voluntary 'Christian Sabbatarians' with their quaint tradition. Sort of like the Amish with their famer's markets.

But, since they lurk with pride around every corner, spying out the liberty of other Christians, they make themselves the worst sort of Judaizing Pharisees.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Afterall, I have never ever seen anyone share about a voluntary sabbath, that they have purposed to keep, along with any resulting blessings and/or difficulties involved in it. Much less any sort of backlash from other Christians.

You see, the real error of strife is not about any personal religious liberty of Christians, nor even about a 'sabbath' itself. It's all about certain self-righteous proud and doting Christians, that make up rules and commandments for themselves (Which is perfectly fine), but also go out of their way to make them for all other Christians to keep and follow, lest they be judged guilty with Almighty God Himself.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

Whether it's a sabbath or holiness rules of men, THAT is the malicious device of the devil: To divide and conquer from within the churches of God.

Afterall, judging believers guilty with God by one's own traditions and commandments, is exactly how the unbelieving Jews justified rejecting Jesus, and ended up having their own Lord and Messiah crucified.

It's the same today for such puffed up and overbearing Christian commandos. Members of the body of Christ are walking orderly according to the commandments of the Lord to His churches, but walking 'profanely' according to some Christian commandments of men.

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

I don't know this White woman

Racist much?

It's all about skin color these days eh?

None of which has anything to do with what you quoted from me.

It certainly represents the mindset of 7th Day Adventism... which is... "we are right, everyone doesn't have our revelation".

It's like some strange minority complex or something. Weird.

Call me a hog—I'm having my cake and eating it, too. For what Christ paid, it shouldn't go to waste.

It's not problem for the rest of us if some don't want the superior upgrade!

Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") NEVER "overruled Torah" or "nullified His Father's commands!"

You should learn God's Word a little better...

Now, there is a new house, the Body of Jesus Christ! Under the New Covenant that the Lord said would come forth, we see Jesus Christ as the High Priest. The old covenant with it’s laws and regulations have been taken away because thru Jesus Christ a new and better covenant has come in to place.

Hebrews 10:9
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

And with the changing of the priesthood, God’s Word tells us there is also a change of the law.

Hebrews 7:12
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Some adherents to keeping Saturday sabbath frequently ask “where did the Lord take Saturday sabbatrh way?”
The answer can be found in Hebrews 10:9 and in Hebrews 7:12.

God’s people are no longer living under the Law of Moses. Now God’s people are living under the Law of Christ (also called the law of liberty, law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus – see Galatians 6:2, 1 Corinthians 9:21, James 2:12, James 1:25, Romans 8:2)

Of course the judaizers trying to follow the old covenant will obviously want to discard Hebrews 10:9, and Hebrews 7:12

but all the same, it is still a good idea to keep YHWH God's Law, especially if one claims to have it written upon his or her heart!

I'm a New Covenant Christian abiding IN Christ... so the Holy Ghost wrote the Laws of Christ upon my heart... not the Law of Moses.

Think of it more for the unbelievers

Yep, the Law of Moses is for those that reject Jesus Christ as Lord God Almighty who doesn't want to abide IN Him and live under the Law of Christ.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

He also defines Torah's "any-cause" divorce as "adultery" (going forward), and as a mere concession that had been given due to the hardness of those men's hearts.

Jesus definitely raised the standard for God's people in the New Covenant He established when He took the old covenant away (Hebrews 10:9, and Hebrews 7:12)

 

[BarneyFife]

Racist much?

It's all about skin color these days eh?

You're a riot (not).

It's "White woman"—not "white woman."

It certainly represents the mindset of 7th Day Adventism... which is... "we are right, everyone doesn't have our revelation".

It's like some strange minority complex or something. Weird.

Again, none of which has anything to do with the conversation between @GracePeace and me about arrogance, whatsoever.

It's not problem for the rest of us if some don't want the superior upgrade!

I think I might be scaling back on responding to these kind of remarks, since they really speak for themselves.

.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

It's "White woman"—not "white woman."

So she's proud to be a white woman?

Again, none of which has anything to do with the conversation between @GracePeace and me about arrogance, whatsoever.

I was speaking to the general attitude of the 7th Day Adventists thru the writing of theirs I have looked at.

I think I might be scaling back on responding to these kind of remarks, since they really speak for themselves.

Yeah, If I were you I'd scale back too

 

[Jay Ross]

You're a riot (not).

Yea, the Proud Big Bad Boy Johnson is at it again.

 

[GracePeace]

It's "White woman"—not "white woman.

I believe it's Hwhite Hwoman?

 

[BarneyFife]

I was speaking to the general attitude of the 7th Day Adventists thru the writing of theirs I have looked at.

...in response to a quote that has nothing to do with that.

So, what do you do when you're not being an utter vexation?

.

 

[BarneyFife]

Yea, the Proud Big Bad Boy Johnson is at it again.

I had a bunkmate like that when I was in the Air Force. It was exhausting trying to keep people from beating him up all the time. One time I wasn't up to the task and he got pummeled. He actually kept his mouth shut for a day or two. It was like being on vacation.


.

 

[BarneyFife]

Yea, the Proud Big Bad Boy Johnson is at it again.

I had a bunkmate like that when I was in the Air Force. It was exhausting trying to keep people from beating him up all the time. One time I wasn't up to the task and he got pummeled. He actually kept his mouth shut for a day or two. It was like being on vacation.

I just remembered he had to have his jaws wired shut but he figured out how to talk fairly well after a couple of days - lol.


.

 

[Hobie]

Was Jesus being nice when rebuking the Jews' traditions? Was Stephen being nice when he condemned the leadership for hypocrisy? Was apollos not nice when boldly refuting the Jews in their own synagogues?

Do you promote unity over truth? Or civil debate without getting personal?

Do you denounce showing Christians teaching things contrary to the Bible? Or that we can learn what not to teach from the proven errors of others?

Do you forbid rebuking any teaching? Or just draw the line at personally 'burning' others, even when wrong?

This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

Let's look at what God says about arguing over His word, which is called disputing the Scriptures:

Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.

The apostles and disciples have always freely and openly disputed the Scriptures. Such liberty of doctrinal argument is encouraged by God, so long as we do not sin by personally assaulting others.

Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

Cults shut down any dispute of their teachings and rule over the people by the truth of the Bible. The same result is in the name of tolerance. They both act like 'arguing' over the Bible is either seditious or discourteous.

Disputing over what the Bible says and teaches, is healthy for individual decisions of faith and life. It is also a good exercise and discipline for learning to rightly divide the word of truth, so long as we remain correctible. That is until it is made personal by hardened people, that do not want to be disagreed with.

But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.

We see here how some were initially willing to have an open dispute about Bible truth, until their position was threatened. That is when they hardened their hearts against good correction, and instead began to make personal insults and charges.

They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

Cults shut down any disagreement for the sake of power over the people. Zealot unity seekers shun any disagreement for the sake of harmony and concord. The cult cast out the dissenters, the unifiers brand them 'not nice'.

Let all things be done decently and in order.

Having an honest dispute is promoted in the Bible, and should never be abridged. Unless it becomes sinful disorderly personal conduct.

It is those that refuse correction, who normally default into personal attacks and accusation. We find that they resent and despise anyone daring to disagree with them, especially when it hits the mark. That is because their trust in their own doctrine, and especially justification in life, is being threatened. Lest it expose their corrupted heart and pricks their defiled conscience, they go on a personal attach and rant to shut down further debate.

When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

There is also of course another kind of disputing that is unhealthy and ungodly:

Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth.

Perverse disputing is just people arguing over their own opinions, philosophies, and religions without regard to what God says in the Bible.

A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

Once we see that someone does not care what the Bible says about such things, then we become fools ourselves by continued argument.

However, sometimes we find such hereticks in our own ranks. There are hardened believers, that really don't care about all of God words in the Bible. Any words of God that do threaten their personal faith, doctrine, and especially justification, are either rejected or twisted into something else more suitable to their personal life.

Hope this helps. It's the rule I go by in all arguments I make from the Bible. Such as now when being accused of 'unnice' discourse.

But remember there comes a point where probation closes, and it will be clear that many of these who 'debate' against what Gods word shows, dont have a desire for or receive the love of truth, and rather stay in deception, waiting for the judgement.

 

[Ghada]

"Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") NEVER "overruled Torah" or "nullified His Father's commands!"

All of the OT law of Moses' statutes, judgments, and ordinances were by commandment: thou shalt, thou shalt not...

In a pan it shall be made with oil; and when it is baken, thou shalt bring it in: and the baken pieces of the meat offering shalt thou offer for a sweet savour unto the LORD.

The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or of thy daughter's daughter, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover: for theirs is thine own nakedness.

And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God.

But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work,

Thou shalt not plant thee a grove of any trees near unto the altar of the LORD thy God, which thou shalt make thee.

None are nullified?

Christian Sabbath commanders today care nothing for the law of Christ, but only for their sabbath pride. When they do speak of His law, they haven't a clue what they are talking about.

Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

 

[Ghada]

But remember there comes a point where probation closes,

As I said...