CALVINISM: The height of Spiritual depravity

[Red Baker]

There is NO scripture in the Bible that says God has predestinated anyone to heaven or to hell. It is a Calvinist fairy tail.

Talking about men stumbling.......

Watch out, he is stumbling all over the place, Romans 10:32-33.

Romans 9:15-22~ For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

With your statement above, I would say you are the one stumbling over that precious stone of God's sovereignty of doing all things after the counsel of his holy will. The reason why you are doing so is God has not made known unto the mystery of his will by giving you eyes to see and a heart willing to submit to his testimony of what is truth. In your natural condition your heart is too proud to humle itself as a little child to God's witness of the truth.

Ephesians 1:6-8~"To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:"

I could spend a few posts on Romans 9:15-22, yet unless you are willing to discuss these scriptures I will forbear at the moment.

I will say a word or two.

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

God without question has mercy upon whom he will~he could have never created and would have been perfectly content not doing so. Yet he purpose to do so for some reasons always mentioned above. He knew that he alone was immutable and could not be tempted with evil ~ not so with created spirits and flesh and blood. So, God elected some and left others to themselves. If you do not like the thought of God doing this, then sir you have a major problem with the scriptures and its Author. Not a good place to put yourself in~your wheels of your chariot will soon come off and fear will fill your heart beyond what you can even begin to imagine.

When the scriptures said therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he hardeneth~God hardened Pharaoh's heart not by working in Pharaoh heart to make it hard, he did so by just leaving Pharaoh to himself and he his heart naturally was harden. Much like he is doing toward you at the moment. Selah.

 

[Red Baker]

Both Esau and Pharoah were chosen vessels.

Yes, one a vessel of MERCY, the other, a vessel fitted for destruction.

 

[JBO]

When the scriptures said therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he hardeneth~God hardened Pharaoh's heart not by working in Pharaoh heart to make it hard, he did so by just leaving Pharaoh to himself and he his heart naturally was harden. Much like he is doing toward you at the moment. Selah.

Be very careful here, my dear friend. You do not have the ability nor the authority to declare whose heart God might be hardening.

 

[Ritajanice]

Be very careful here, my dear friend. You do not have the ability nor the authority to declare whose heart God might be hardening.

God hardens hearts though, you can’t deny that, as he hardened Pharoah heart to accomplish his will.

Unfortunately there are those who limit God to their own understandings I’m afraid.

Some don’t know of the supernatural power of God...they don’t have that intimate relationship with him,via the Spirit.because they are carnal in their thinking.

 

[Red Baker]

Be very careful here, my dear friend. You do not have the ability nor the authority to declare whose heart God might be hardening.

I understand~but the Lord did say this:

Matthew 7:15-20~"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

1. Ye shall know them...We do not know men perfectly, impossible, but we can get a very good feel for some of them, mainly by.....

2. inwardly they are ravening wolves.....It is by the spirit they come after the sheep that allows us to know them and beware of them.

 

[Ritajanice]

When the scriptures said therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he hardeneth~God hardened Pharaoh's heart not by working in Pharaoh heart to make it hard, he did so by just leaving Pharaoh to himself and he his heart naturally was harden. Much like he is doing toward you at the moment. Selah.

Not true God hardened Pharoah heart.

God can harden anyone’s heart he chooses to accomplish his will!!..including yours or mine.

Exodus 7:13-8:19​

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King James Version​

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13 And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said.
14 And the Lord said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go.

 

[Ritajanice]

I understand~but the Lord did say this:



1. Ye shall know them...We do not know men perfectly, impossible, but we can get a very good feel for some of them, mainly by.....

2. inwardly they are ravening wolves.....It is by the spirit they come after the sheep that allows us to know them an beware of them.

You also know them by their fruit...

A unbelievers cannot bear the fruit of Jesus...and we all know why.

 

[JBO]

I could spend a few posts on Romans 9:15-22, yet unless you are willing to discuss these scriptures I will forbear at the moment.

Yes you could indeed spend a few posts on Romans 6:15-22. And you would get it wrong yet one more time. The key to that passage is in a correct understanding of verse 21, namely what does Paul intend with the talk of the potter's, i.e., God's, "right over the clay" for " honorable use" or "dishonorable use". First, what is the "clay" here? It is not the mass of humanity, the human race in general, as the Calvinists want to say. The entire discussion is concerned with the totality of Israel, from which God makes the two derivative groups, physical Israel and spiritual Israel. This should be reasonably clear based upon the first verses in the chapter. Paul makes it clear that he is talking about his "brothers, his kinsmen according to the flesh" (v.3). Israel as a nation, is in the hand of God as a potter molds clay. I would remind you of Jeremiah 18:1-12, where the clay in the potter's hand is the people of Israel.

From the same lump of clay, says Paul, the potter has the right to make pieces of the pottery that are very different in their nature and use. And here as in Jeremiah, God makes it clear that this potter-clay relationship does not mean that he arbitrarily determines the destiny of the nation. He declares that he tailers his final decision regarding any nation of kingdom to the way it responds to his warnings (Jer 18:7-12):

Jer 18:7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it,
Jer 18:8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it.
Jer 18:9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it,
Jer 18:10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.
Jer 18:11 Now, therefore, say to the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: 'Thus says the LORD, Behold, I am shaping disaster against you and devising a plan against you. Return, every one from his evil way, and amend your ways and your deeds.'
Jer 18:12 "But they say, 'That is in vain! We will follow our own plans, and will every one act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.'

With respect to God's dealing with individuals, we need to understand that Paul is, in verses 20-21, answering the objector in verse 19. for his presumptuousness in talking back to Go. The metaphor of the potter and his clay is a generic warning applicable to anyone who presumes to do the same in any sort of circumstance. Even so, we know that Paul intends that it be applied to "his brothers, his kinsmen according to the flesh", i.e., Israel. We know that from the way he continues the metaphor in verses 22-24. God has endured with much patience the nation Israel, in order to make known the riches of his glory for the salvation brought to the world through Jesus Christ.

The Potter-Clay is metaphor is God's arbitrary choosing for service. Paul shows us that God used ethnic Israel to produce spiritual Israel. He shows us that it is God's right to choose and use people or nations or kingdoms without saving them.

 

[JBO]

God hardens hearts though, you can’t deny that, as he hardened Pharoah heart to accomplish his will.

Unfortunately there are those who limit God to their own understandings I’m afraid.

Some don’t know of the supernatural power of God...they don’t have that intimate relationship with him,via the Spirit.because they are carnal in their thinking.

If you will examine all the instances of God's hardening the hearts of men, you will find that He never hardens the hearts of men who have not hardened their own hearts first.

 

[Tulipbee]

If you will examine all the instances of God's hardening the hearts of men, you will find that He never hardens the hearts of men who have not hardened their own hearts first.

Ah, JBO, the theological tightrope walker from Prescott, swinging between the balance of God's sovereignty and the free will of man! Your observation is like a daring act in the theological circus. Let's juggle through the complexities, shall we?

As Calvin once remarked in the Institutes of Religion, "Behold the tightrope of divine hardening, where man's hardened heart meets God's sovereign touch." It's a delicate dance, my friend, a dance where free will and divine intervention tango on the high wire.

Now, let's expose some theological acrobatics. Arminianism, with its somersaults of human free will, may find itself tumbling into doctrinal disarray. And oh, the oneness wof errors, attempting spiritual gymnastics with their singular deity – a theological backflip that might leave heads spinning.

But wait, let's not forget the errors of Glossolalia, the linguistic cartwheels that sometimes end up sounding like a linguistic circus gone wild. Calvin would probably raise an eyebrow and quote Corinthians with a chuckle.

JBO, my theological trapeze artist, defend your tightrope with the finesse of a theological gymnast! The circus of doctrines awaits, and I'm sure your theological somersaults will leave us all in awe. #TheologicalCircus #DivineTightrope

 

[Ritajanice]

If you will examine all the instances of God's hardening the hearts of men, you will find that He never hardens the hearts of men who have not hardened their own hearts first.

That is “ your” opinion...this is God’s word....he can harden anyone’s heart to accomplish his will on this earth today....unfortunately some limit God to their own human understanding @JBO





Romans 9:18
Verse Concepts
So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Exodus 4:21
Verse Concepts
The Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

Exodus 7:3
Verse Concepts
But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.

Exodus 9:12
Verse Concepts
And the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses.






Exodus 10:20
Verse Concepts
But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not let the sons of Israel go.

Exodus 10:27
But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he was not willing to let them go.

Exodus 11:10
Verse Concepts
Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh; yet the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not let the sons of Israel go out of his land.

Exodus 14:4
Verse Concepts
Thus I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will chase after them; and I will be honored through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord.” And they did so.

Exodus 14:8
Verse Concepts
The Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and he chased after the sons of Israel as the sons of Israel were going out boldly.

Exodus 14:17
Verse Concepts
As for Me, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them; and I will be honored through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen.

Deuteronomy 2:30
Verse Concepts
But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today.

 

[JBO]

I understand~but the Lord did say this:



1. Ye shall know them...We do not know men perfectly, impossible, but we can get a very good feel for some of them, mainly by.....

2. inwardly they are ravening wolves.....It is by the spirit they come after the sheep that allows us to know them an beware of them.

That is a two-way street. As much as I detest the Calvinist Soteriology and consider it to be so terribly, terribly wrong, I do not believe that the Calvinist/non-Calvinist situation is a wolf/sheep condition.

 

[Tulipbee]

That is “ your” opinion...this is God’s word....he can harden anyone’s heart to accomplish his will on this earth today....unfortunately some limit God to their own human understanding @JBO





Romans 9:18
Verse Concepts
So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Exodus 4:21
Verse Concepts
The Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

Exodus 7:3
Verse Concepts
But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.

Exodus 9:12
Verse Concepts
And the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses.






Exodus 10:20
Verse Concepts
But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not let the sons of Israel go.

Exodus 10:27
But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he was not willing to let them go.

Exodus 11:10
Verse Concepts
Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh; yet the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not let the sons of Israel go out of his land.

Exodus 14:4
Verse Concepts
Thus I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will chase after them; and I will be honored through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord.” And they did so.

Exodus 14:8
Verse Concepts
The Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and he chased after the sons of Israel as the sons of Israel were going out boldly.

Exodus 14:17
Verse Concepts
As for Me, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them; and I will be honored through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen.

Deuteronomy 2:30
Verse Concepts
But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today.

Ah, Ritajanice, the theological banterer from the United Kingdom, engaging in a scriptural sparring match! Your comeback is like a punchline in the divine comedy. Let's waltz through the theological battlefield, shall we?

As Calvin once quipped in the Institutes of Religion, "In the dance of divine hardening, opinions waltz, but God's word leads the ball." It's a theological tango where interpretations sway, but the divine choreography remains supreme.

Now, let's shine a spotlight on the theological stage. Arminianism, with its interpretative twists and turns, may find itself in a doctrinal pirouette. And oh, the oneness wof errors attempting theological ballet with their singular deity – a dance that might leave theologians spinning.

But wait, the errors of Glossolalia, the linguistic cha-cha that sometimes sounds like a heavenly dance-off. Calvin would probably raise an eyebrow and quote Corinthians with a chuckle.

Ritajanice, my theological dance partner, let's keep this divine comedy rolling. Your scriptural jabs and God's word fencing – a match made in the celestial arena. #TheologicalBanter #DivineComedy

 

[JBO]

That is “ your” opinion...this is God’s word....he can harden anyone’s heart to accomplish his will on this earth today....unfortunately some limit God to their own human understanding @JBO

Not one of those verses you posted disproves in any way what I said. Clearly every heart you claim God hardened was the heart of a man already set against God.

 

[Ritajanice]

Not one of those verses you posted disproves in any way what I said. Clearly every heart you claim God hardened was the heart of a man already set against God.

Yes they do...as all can see in Gods word.

Prove by using scripture, that we hardened our own heart and then God hardened it more...which makes no sense by the way.

I await scripture...otherwise it’s just “ your” opinion...as I said earlier..your opinion doesn’t count.

Who do you think softens our heart to receive his word @JBO ?

 

[JBO]

Yes they do...as all can see in Gods word.

Prove by using scripture, that we hardened our own heart and then God hardened it more...which makes no sense by the way.

I await scripture...otherwise it’s just “ your” opinion...as I said earlier..your opinion doesn’t count.

Show me even one passage of scripture where God hardened the heart of one who was a faithful follower of God.

 

[Ritajanice]

Show me even one passage of scripture where God hardened the heart of one who was a faithful follower of God.

I asked you first?...where does God say man hardened his heart and then I ( God) hardened it more?

Are you saying God couldn’t harden my heart as a Born Again/ a faithful follower of Christ..to accomplish his will?..are you being serious.

He can harden anyone’s heart....which imo..you surly aren’t understanding..
Intellectual knowledge of scripture is useless without the Spirit guiding us through God’s word.

His word is there in black and white...unfortunately you aren’t able to receive it,imo.. @JBO .

He hardens “ Whom He Desires “.....that is saying the opposite to what you are saying?


Romans 9:18
Verse Concepts
So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

 

[JBO]

I asked you first?...where does God say man hardened his heart and then I ( God) hardened it more?

Are you saying God couldn’t harden my heart as a Born Again/ a faithful follower of Christ..to accomplish his will?..are you being serious.

He can harden anyone’s heart....which imo..you surly aren’t understanding..
Intellectual knowledge of scripture is useless without the Spirit guiding us through God’s word.



Romans 9:18
Verse Concepts
So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

If you examine all the instances where it says that God has hardened hearts it should be clear to you that He has no desire to harden the heart of a faithful follower.

 

[Ritajanice]

If you examine all the instances where it says that God has hardened hearts it should be clear to you that He has no desire to harden the heart of a faithful follower.

He can and does harden faithful followers hearts to accomplish his will...so agree to disagree.

 

[JBO]

He can and does harden faithful followers hearts to accomplish his will...so agree to disagree.

Give us even one example.