CALVINISM: The height of Spiritual depravity
- Thread starter Robert Pate
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Jesus came strictly to save His People from their sins Matt 1:21, the Elect, not all the human race. For many God has predetermined that they go the broad way to destruction Matt 7:13
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
They are the vessels of wrath He created for destruction Rom 9:22
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction
The word destruction here is the same one in Matt 7:13
Its the greek word apōleia :
- destroying, utter destruction
- of vessels
- a perishing, ruin, destruction
- of money
- the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell
Man by nature is dead to God, hates the light and loves the darkness Jn 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Until a dead depraved sinner is made anew, they will love darkness rather than light, its their nature.
Greetings Rita~the contexts of Romans nine verifies this~ The metaphor of a chosen vessel, refers to a person that is receptive. Consider:
Double predestination is taught in the scriptures, even though men hates the very thought of it. Angels were created a higher being than man, yet no one complains about them being prepared unto destruction. The old serpent hates the doctrine of being a vessel prepared unto destruction, so does his little serpents.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well it is the bible whether we agree or not.
Just what it says. We were born of perishable seed in our natural birth, so we die. Being born again of imperishable seed means we do not die.
Yes in Christ we are incapable of sinning. IN Adam we are incapable of doing righteous. but if you read the Epistles of Paul, he constantly encourages believers to keep growing in righteousness and lay down singfulness. He is not talking to unbelievers.
And as you qoute John let us look at two quoutes from John:
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
I am not advocating for believers to sin, but it is the simple fact that believers do sin because we live in these bodies of sin and death. God still loves us.
It is very plain that you are "willingly ignorant" ( 2nd Peter 3:5 ) of the scriptures, since you refuse to give scriptures their proper sense so that they with one voice give the same truth to the hearer and readers thereof. Your blindness and ignorance is well deserving.
The word world meaning is not all without exceptions, but all without distinction. No longer is He just the God of the Jews only, (Romans 3:29 ) but God has some elect Gentiles that he has been visiting since Jesus left this world and will continue to visit until he comes the second time. Acts 15; etc.
Listen at the snail calling the worm slimy. Why do you not address scriptures and leave gaslighting ~ which is simply a veiled ad hominem out of your post?
Ritajanice
Born-Again
No it’s not...that’s your opinion
That is not what God’s word says..those are your words..
this is just confusion of words that don’t make any sense whatsoever.
I don’t agree with you...reasons being..imo you are not understanding “ imperishable seed”,.....
If you understood what imperishable seed meant, you wouldn’t be saying any of this.
Therefore I stand on God’s word.
A Born Again does not sin because they have been Born Again of “ imperishable seed”...no one ever said we were not without sin...of course we were...when we were unbelievers.
A Born Again does not confess their sins....their sins have been forgiven, past ,present, future..
I’m with Behold and will never be moved from the “ Living “ word of God...His Spirit cannot In dwell a sinner..and a Born Again has been set free from sin, by the Living word of God....I don’t think you understand what God’s “ Living “ word means..Gods word is Alive and Active in his Born Again child...the seed is the Living word of God...which you never explained.
Sounds like you are working for your salvation...confessing ones sin all day...is not what a Born Again of imperishable seed does.....and as Gods word says....
I don’t think you understand that Gods seed/ word is a “ Living “ word...maybe the scripture below may help you understand God’s word is Living...
His word is Alive in Spirit?
Romans 8
King James Version
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
| Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. New Living Translation For you have been born again, but not to a life that will quickly end. Your new life will last forever because it comes from the eternal, living word of God. English Standard Version since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God; Berean Standard Bible For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God |
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Free will is a lie from the father of all lies. Man is born under the power of sin, and in darkness, and total arrogance of spiritual truths.
Let discuss this doctrine of your concerning man's free will. Start a thread on it. I'll come. In the meantime:
In what does the sinner’s freedom consist? The sinner is “free” in the sense of being unforced from outside. God never forces the sinner to sin. But the sinner is not “free” to do either good or evil, because an evil heart within is ever inclining him toward sin.
Let all divine restraint be removed, and every man is capable of becoming, would become, a Cain, a Pharaoh, a Judas. How then is the sinner to move heavenwards? By an act of his own will? Not so.
A POWER OUTSIDE OF HIMSELF MUST GRASP HOLD OF HIM AND LIFT HIM EVERY INCH OF THE WAY!
The sinner is free, but free in ONE DIRECTION ONLY — free to fall, free to sin. As the Word expresses it: “For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were FREE FROM righteousness” Rom. 6:20. The sinner is free to do as he pleases, always as he pleases (except as he is restrained by God), but his pleasure is to sin.
Does it lie within the power of the sinner’s will to yield himself up to God? Let us attempt an answer by asking several others: Can water (of itself) rise above its own level? Can a clean thing come out of an unclean? Can the will reverse the whole tendency and strain of human nature? Can that which is under the dominion of sin originate that which is pure and holy? Manifestly not. If ever the will of a fallen and depraved creature is to move God-wards, a Divine power must be brought to bear upon it which will overcome the influences of sin that pull in a counter direction.
This is only another way of saying, “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me, draw him” John 6:44. In other words, God’s people must be made willing in the day of his power Psa. 110:3. If Christ came to save that which is lost, free will has no place. Not that God prevents men from receiving Christ — far from it. But even when God uses all possible inducements, all that is capable of exerting influence in the heart of man, it only serves to show that man will have none of it, that so corrupt is his heart, and so decided his will not to submit to God (however much it may be the devil who encourages him to sin) that nothing can induce him to receive the Lord, and to give up sin.
If by the words, ‘freedom of man’, you mean that no one forces him to reject the Lord, this liberty fully exists. But if it is said that, on account of the dominion of sin, of which he is the slave, and that voluntarily, he cannot escape from his condition, and make choice of the good — even while acknowledging it to be good, and approving of it — then he has no liberty whatever . He is not subject to the law, neither indeed can be; hence, they that are in the flesh cannot please God~Romans 8
The will is not sovereign; it is a servant, because influenced and controlled by the other faculties of man’s being. The sinner is not a free agent because he is a slave of sin — this was clearly implied in our Lord’s words, “If the Son shall therefore make you free, ye shall be free indeed” John 8:36. Man is a rational being and as such responsible and accountable to God, but to affirm that he is a free moral agent is to deny that he is totally depraved — i.e., depraved in will as in everything else. Because man’s will is governed by his mind and heart, and because these have been vitiated and corrupted by sin, then it follows that if ever man is to turn or move in a God-ward direction, God himself must work in him “both to will and to do of his good pleasure” Php 2:13.
Man’s boasted freedom is in truth the “bondage of corruption”; he “serves divers lusts and pleasures.” Said a deeply taught servant of God, “Man is impotent as to his will. He has no will favourable to God. I believe in free will; but then it is a will only free to act according to nature. A dove has no will to eat carrion; a raven no will to eat the clean food of the dove. Put the nature of the dove into the raven and it will eat the food of the dove. Satan could have no will for holiness. We speak it with reverence, God could have no will for evil. The sinner in his sinful nature could never have a will according to God. For this he must be born again” (J. Denham Smith). THE WILL IS REGULATED BY THE NATURE.
???
Like for vessels,
Clay vessels, child toys of ancient days, some for rough play, not meant to last long get cracked and broken, something fancy for show on a shelf like Knick knacks.
Vessels unto honor, ships with flags and a band playing on deck
Vessels unto wrath, some old garbage scow sinking and polluting the bay.
Romans 9:21
Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
Romans 9:22
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Romans 9:23
and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
I know your think it's toys and ships.
After all ship is the primary definiton
ves·sel
[ˈves(ə)l]
NOUN
- a ship or large boat.
Vessel of wrath, hey that must be warships fit for destruction
en.wikipedia.org
List of current ships of the United States Navy - Wikipedia
Romans 9:22, Says "What If" It does not say that God does that. You stumble at the truth because you want to believe that God is evil. "Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at the stumbling stone" Romans 10:32-33.
I don't know, does it float? Vessels have to float or it's not very effective vessel.Or maybe we are robots programmed by God.....as in vessels of wrath..fit for destruction......absolute nonsense.
Both Esau and Pharoah were chosen vessels.
Not only is the Calvin version of double predestination not taught in the scriptures, the Calvin version of single predestination is not even taught in the scriptures.
In the question of sin, there is only two choices, to obey or not to obey. If you are not free to obey, then there is no other choice but to disobey. That is not "free" in any sense. Given the two choices, if you can't choose one, for whatever reason, then doing the other is not a choice.
You claim that God never forces the sinner to sin. But according to you, God imputes Adam's sin to the unborn and then refuses to regenerate some, in fact most, of them. He may not force anyone to sin, but he prevents anyone from obeying by His not regenerating them. Thus, in effect, God is indeed not allowing them to obey, which is the same thing as forcing them to sin.
What if does not carry the meaning of~"if he decided to do so, yet this is not what God decided" is what you desires others to believe what if is saying. Not even close!
Contents is king, it will drive the true understanding of what is being said by the writer.
Very clear the true meaning is: What if God according to his own counsel of his most holy will has purposed to do things in the way he has done them by creating and allowing sin to enter~What if God has chosen this manner what is that to you oh vain man doesn't the potter have power over the clay of the same lump to do as he wills?
Here the purpose of God, in enduring the wicked in this world, is expressly stated to arise from His willingness to show His wrath against sin. We see, then, that the entrance of sin into the world was necessary to manifest the Divine character in His justice and hatred of sin. Had sin never entered into the creation of God, His character would never have been fully developed. Let wicked men ( Robert Pate ) hear what God says in this place. Vain men flatter themselves that in some way, through mercy, or because great severity, they suppose, would not be just, they will finally escape. But God here declares by the Apostle, that He has endured sin in the world for the very purpose of glorifying Himself in its punishment. How, then, shall they escape? Especially so those wicked men who purposely corrupt God's testimony because they just do not like the manner in which God has chosen to show his wisdom, power and glory in doing all things according to his own will. Much different than the god that wicked men have created in their own heart of how God should do this, that or the other.
And to make His power known~The entrance of sin was also an occasion of manifesting God’s power and wisdom in overruling it for His glory. 21st verse asserts the right of God to act in the manner supposed; this verse shows that His doing so was to manifest His wrath against sin, and His power to make even sin to glorify His name. Sin is in its own nature to God’s dishonor. He has overruled it so that He has turned it to His glory. This is the most wonderful display of power.
Endured with much long-suffering~ How often do men wonder that God endures so much sin as appears in the world. Why does not God immediately cut off transgressors? Why does He not make an end of them at once? The answer is, He endures them for His own glory, and in their condemnation He will be glorified. To short-sighted mortals, it would appear preferable if God would cut off in childhood all whom He foresaw should continue in wickedness. But God endures them to old age, and to the utmost bounds of wickedness, for the glory of His own name.
Vessels of wrath~ vessels ‘full of the fury of the Lord,’ Isaiah 51:20. Here Paul calls the wicked vessels, in allusion to the figure which he had just before used.
Fitted to destruction~They are vessels, indeed, but they are vessels of wrath, and by their sins they are fitted for destruction; and it is in the counsel of Jehovah that this shall be so.
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