Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Untrue. Christ said he is the lord of the Sabbath and he has not come to abolish the law.
Questions for Sabbatarians
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Ziggy
Well-Known Member
Luk 11:20
But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
Jhn 8:6
This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
Who wrote the commandments? Who can change them? Can God annul what he initiated?
Can he change them?
Is the Law carnal or Spiritual. How are we supposed to know God, carnally or spiritually?
Is a week day carnal or spiritual?
And how are we supposed to Keep it, carnally or spiritually?
It's a whole new world, it's a new beginning.
A new fantastic point of view.
Imagine you are living in the Kingdom of God. It's not a physical place, it's spiritual. There are no days or nights, there is no time.
We are in the world, but we are not part of the world. The elements of this world have no hold on us. We are not bound to the limitations the world puts upon us.
We are as the wind. We are Born again. We have been translated from a corruptible world to an incorruptible Kingdom.
Jhn 3:8
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Have you lived there in your heart in your mind? For where your heart is that is where your treasure is also.
Col 2:20
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21
(Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22
Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23
Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
Col 1:12
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
For by him ALL things were created, even his Sabbath which he gave to man. His peace, His rest, His Life, His Love, His Hope, His Faith.
And he is before ALL things, even His Sabbath, and by him ALL things consist, even His Sabbath.
Mat 11:28
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Jhn 7:34
Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.
Jhn 7:36
What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come?
Jhn 6:65
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Heb 3:18
And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Heb 3:19
So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
It's not that they couldn't enter into God's rest because they didn't keep a certain day. It's because they had no faith in keeping God.
Good Morning!!
Hugs
But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
Jhn 8:6
This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
Who wrote the commandments? Who can change them? Can God annul what he initiated?
Can he change them?
Is the Law carnal or Spiritual. How are we supposed to know God, carnally or spiritually?
Is a week day carnal or spiritual?
And how are we supposed to Keep it, carnally or spiritually?
It's a whole new world, it's a new beginning.
A new fantastic point of view.
Imagine you are living in the Kingdom of God. It's not a physical place, it's spiritual. There are no days or nights, there is no time.
We are in the world, but we are not part of the world. The elements of this world have no hold on us. We are not bound to the limitations the world puts upon us.
We are as the wind. We are Born again. We have been translated from a corruptible world to an incorruptible Kingdom.
Jhn 3:8
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Have you lived there in your heart in your mind? For where your heart is that is where your treasure is also.
Col 2:20
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21
(Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22
Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23
Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
Col 1:12
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
For by him ALL things were created, even his Sabbath which he gave to man. His peace, His rest, His Life, His Love, His Hope, His Faith.
And he is before ALL things, even His Sabbath, and by him ALL things consist, even His Sabbath.
Mat 11:28
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Jhn 7:34
Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.
Jhn 7:36
What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come?
Jhn 6:65
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Heb 3:18
And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Heb 3:19
So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
It's not that they couldn't enter into God's rest because they didn't keep a certain day. It's because they had no faith in keeping God.
Good Morning!!
Hugs
This is an interesting study in how traditions develop and perhaps change over time and cultures.
But, it's only a fraud if it actually matters from one day to the next.
It's like Christmas or Easter. Who cares other than local culture? Afterall, the NT doctrine of Christ says nothing about special worship days of sabbaths, Jesus' birth, or resurrection day.
On Patmos, it was the Lord's day, and the Lord met personally with John. That is an important day indeed in anyone's life.
What does it matter what day of the week it was? If such days do in fact matter to the Head of the body, then no doubt it would be recorded as such...
And yet... He actually did take away the Law of Moses and established the Law of Christ
Jesus personally fulfilled the Law of Moses by keeping every item of the old testament law... then He took it away and established the Law of Christ which we see taught in the New Testament.
Hebrews 10:9
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
And with the changing of the priesthood, God’s Word tells us there is also a change of the law.
Hebrews 7:12
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Where the Saturday sabbath people get confused is... they don't accept the new sabbath which is resting IN Christ 24/7/365 and instead they think there's only one day of rest which is on Saturday.
Nowhere in the New Testament is it taught that Christians are required to observe Saturday sabbath... simply because a better sabbath has been establish by Jesus Who is the High Priest over the New Covenant.
Why would anybody not want to be upgraded to the New Covenant of Jesus Christ and choose to continue practicing what Jesus took away?
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Because the Sabbath is a gift not a legal burden needed for salvation.Why would anybody not want to be upgraded to the New Covenant of Jesus Christ and choose to continue practicing what Jesus took away?
The expression "the day of the Lord" in Rev. 1:10 has nothing to do with what day of the week the day of the visions was, but the day or period in the future when Jesus would be enthroned in heavens and finished the great purpose of bringing the end to the evil human system of things under Satan and bring the planet and those favorably judged to a totally new system of things under his kingdom.
That day is a period when all those visions he saw will be fulfilled.
That's right... and this gift has been upgraded under Jesus!
It's no longer resting just one day...
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
No verse says this. What Scripture does say, again is that Jesus is lord of the Sabbath - not that he is Sabbath. And again, Jesus says he did not come to abolish the law.
Your animosity toward a gift from God is disappointing.
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
Tradition and Identity.
Here in the United States we have many holidays. They literally are all manmade. The only Holy Days that God established with Israel is in the Bible. The Feast Days and the days of solemn assembly.
These Holy Days were to identify who they were in the world seperate from the other nations.
Peter had a hard time with the unification of jews and gentiles living under one flag.
Originally back in Egypt even in Joseph's day it was said that the egyptians do not eat with the jews.
Gen 43:32
And they set on for him by himself, and for them by themselves, and for the Egyptians, which did eat with him, by themselves: because the Egyptians might not eat bread with the Hebrews; for that is an abomination unto the Egyptians.
When we come to the book of Acts the situation is flipped:
Act 11:2
And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,
Act 11:3
Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.
Gal 2:11
But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
Gal 2:12
For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Gal 2:13
And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
It's about identity.
And through Christ identities don't matter.
Col 3:10
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Col 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
I understand and I get it. People want to be recognized from their heritage and their traditions.
And God chose a people and called them Israel and gave them an identity to show the world the difference between Our God and their gods.
But when Jesus came that wall of partition between Jews and Gentiles was torn down.
Now we all share the same Identity.
And it has nothing to do with heritage or traditions. It only has to do with the Lord.
America, the melting pot of traditions and nationalities and identities.
It was created for all people to come and live under one America.
But we see all kinds of divisions within her. African-American, Irish-American, Armenian-American....
We're all still Americans. The hyphen shouldn't matter.
But again there is always division.
And whether it be a nation or a country or a people, if they are divided they can not stand together.
Christ is one. And we are one with him. There are no more earthly traditions to keep us divided.
There is no day, that is more important to any other day. Because This DAY that we are living in belongs to the Lord if we are living in Him.
Peter had a hard time with this. God let down a sheet 3 times to explain the problem.
And 3 times Peter removed himself from eating with other identities. (I looked for the third, I know it's in Acts but I'm having trouble finding it)
Finally Paul had to confront him to make him understand that the traditions and the identity crisis was over.
Eph 2:14
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17
And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18
For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22
In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
When Jews keep the Sabbath day saturday, they are saying to the Gentiles, we are different and unless you come under our traditions and laws, you are not welcome here.
When Gentiles keep the Sabbath sunday, they are saying to the Jews, we are different and unless you come under our traditions and laws, you are not welcome here.
Jesus don't care what day you choose. It's about HIM. Not about You.
Hugs
God wants the entire world to move to the US ???
If that's true, I need to fin another country to move to.
Apparently some think there is .
I hear some people go to church on Wednesdays... and they are the Hump Day People!
There's a better gift for those living under the law of Christ and not the Law of Moses.
I'm enjoying the rest that the Jesus Upgrade provides!
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
your funny LOL
I think the idea was to begin here and have it spread around the world. The melting pot that is. Accepting of other peoples nationalities and traditions, even their beliefs and religions. You can't find common ground unless everyone is sitting at the table working it out.
I think the US was the table meant to sit around and work it out. And then whatever was left in that basket of fish and loaves would be sent out around the world. Unity. Not in the way the world means unity but the way God means unity. One God, One spirit, One faith.
Looks like we're going backwards not forwards though.
And it looks like the entire world IS trying to move to the US. It's going to get crowded real soon.
As far as days being more important then others, it's up to the individual to keep or not keep and give God the glory either way.
And if it is a wednesday sobeit.
But for me I live in the Sabbath Day everyday and I am at rest with my Lord.
It's like saying, I can go out and hate everyone (my works, works of the flesh) everyday except one day a week.
Or, I can love everyone (walking in the spirit) everyday of every week of every year for the rest of my life.
I'm in the latter. Sometimes there may come a day when I slip into a different day, but I quickly brush myself off, ask God for forgiveness for being mean or nasty or spiteful, and enter right back in to that loving place of rest and peace and share goodness with my friends.
Thats what the Sabbath means to me.
Hugs
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
One night many, many years ago, as a child, I went to sleep happily, having learned that Sunday was the object of the 4th commandment.
Then, one day, I woke up and many Christians were maliciously mocking other Christians for keeping the Sabbath day holy.
That makes me very sad, indeed.
.
Then, one day, I woke up and many Christians were maliciously mocking other Christians for keeping the Sabbath day holy.
That makes me very sad, indeed.
.
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
I hope you don't mean me Barney. I'm not mocking Sabbath keepers. I respect their desire to follow God as they are led.One night many, many years ago, as a child, I went to sleep happily, having learned that Sunday was the object of the 4th commandment.
Then, one day, I woke up and many Christians were maliciously mocking other Christians for keeping the Sabbath day holy.
That makes me very sad, indeed.
.
God has plans for everyone individually. And your walk and my walk if walked in love, it shouldn't matter what day or any day a person chooses to give God Glory.
And that's not to say that Sabbath keepers don't give Glory to God everyday but that they keep a day special and solitary for the Lord away from all the cares of the world.
I myself don't work, have no family or children to raise, I don't go to school. I have the indulgence and the blessing of being able to keep everyday seperate from the world.
I don't believe anyone should be mocked or ridiculed for serving God the way God leads them.
Hugs
What you call being malicious is more about there bring nothing in the New Testament that teaches that Christians are to observe Saturday sabbath. By acting paranoid about it, that makes people think it's a cult or something.
If you truly believe that's what God wants YOU to do... then you should be able to laugh it off when others disagree with you and not get all upset and offended. If you really think it's the truth, then who cares what others says?
Others have the right to disagree concerning the Saturday sabbath do they not?
OR, is it that those that don't agree with this are in error and they are dishonoring and disrespecting the Lord?
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
The idea of "better" is different from the idea of "additional."
For instance, at a birthday party, you might get one gift that is rather nominal, say a $10 gift card. Another gift is more extravagant, a $100 gift card. The recepient has BOTH the $10 nominal gift and the additional $100, better gift.
Moreover, you seem stuck on confusing a gift with the law. The Sabbath is not something to do as a means of acquiring salvation. Your mind does not seem able to process this blessing from God. What a shame.
If you study the Sabbath, it is both to honor God (Creation) and a gift for our rejuvenation. Your theology seems like a petulant child.
I'M NOT GONNA HONOR GOD IF IT IS NOT REQUIRED FOR SALVATION! 
I'M NOT GONNA HONOR GOD IF IT IS NOT REQUIRED FOR SALVATION!
I'M NOT GONNA HONOR GOD IF IT IS NOT REQUIRED FOR SALVATION!
I'M NOT GONNA HONOR GOD IF IT IS NOT REQUIRED FOR SALVATION!
I'M NOT GONNA HONOR GOD IF IT IS NOT REQUIRED FOR SALVATION!
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
.
It's the old objection trifecta:
In memory of TinMan
.
The idea of "better" is different from the idea of "additional."
For instance, at a birthday party, you might get one gift that is rather nominal, say a $10 gift card. Another gift is more extravagant, a $100 gift card. The recepient has BOTH the $10 nominal gift and the additional $100, better gift.
Moreover, you seem stuck on confusing a gift with the law. The Sabbath is not something to do as a means of acquiring salvation. Your mind does not seem able to process this blessing from God. What a shame.
If you study the Sabbath, it is both to honor God (Creation) and a gift for our rejuvenation. Your theology seems like a petulant child.
I'M NOT GONNA HONOR GOD IF IT IS NOT REQUIRED FOR SALVATION!I'M NOT GONNA HONOR GOD IF IT IS NOT REQUIRED FOR SALVATION!I'M NOT GONNA HONOR GOD IF IT IS NOT REQUIRED FOR SALVATION!I'M NOT GONNA HONOR GOD IF IT IS NOT REQUIRED FOR SALVATION!I'M NOT GONNA HONOR GOD IF IT IS NOT REQUIRED FOR SALVATION!
It's the old objection trifecta:
- Prove it! (incredulity)
- That's not fair!! (appeal to equity)
- I know you are, but what am I?!!! (projection)
In memory of TinMan
.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Zig, we go back a ways.
I hope—better yet, suspect that you know I didn't mean you. Nobody who ends all their posts with the salutation: "Hugs" could be doing much malicious mocking, if any.
Actually, I didn't mean anyone in particular, although it's already being strongly suggested that I did (not by you).
You're a ray of sunshine in the CyB community.
.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Well, if by "more about" you mean "1% more about," I might make that concession.
A case could possibly be made that you're posts are only 49½% malicious mocking and 50½% about the alleged absence of anything in the New Testament teaching that the 7th-day Sabbath is as obligatory to Christians as are the other 9 of God's commandments.
Your posts aren't upsetting to me. They're actually quite mind-numbingly boring, to be honest.
But since the general trend of which I spoke that's occurred over the last year (and you so predictably assumed was a personal remark about yourself) generates so much anti-Sabbath rhetoric, I have to, in good conscience, make an effort to counter the false claims that are being made to avoid allowing only the Sabbath-dissenting voices a hearing.
It's really quite interesting the way people can project their attitudes, character traits, and even behaviors onto folks they oppose.
It's quite obvious even to the remotely objective onlooker that you're incapable of distinguishing between disagreement and ad hominem.
In this one post, alone:
- you've made the usual "upset/squishy and offended" accusation,
- raised the suspicion that I'm cultic,
- assumed I was talking about you when I'd neither quoted nor tagged you while being careful to word my post generally, even (quite honestly, actually) specifying a plurality of offenders,
- Oh, and I'm acting paranoid now,
- I might not truly believe that keeping God's commandments is what He wants me to do (this one gets double mention, btw),
- I'm too solemn and should have more of a sense of humor about "disagreements,"
- I don't respect the rights of others to disagree,
- and I am probably just trying to hide my judgment/condemnation of those holding different views
I'm sure it's gratifying to you to paint an opponent in a disagreement as emotionally compromised. It probably provides the illusion of a leg up in a debate to which, as yet, you've only contributed a lot of evasion and endless, double-down, cannon fodder.
Btw, insisting that there is "nothing (in the absolute sense of the word) in the New Testament that teaches that Christians are to observe Saturday sabbath" would qualify as a bonafide falsehood.
There may not be the kind of conclusive evidence that would satisfy your incredulity but substantial evidence has been given in this thread that you fraudulently started and then fled like WWII Frenchmen underground from direct answers given in good faith to your so-called "Questions for Sabbatarians."
Now, if you will excuse me, I'm very upset and I think I could use a nap.
.
Well of course if one does not observe Saturday sabbath... they are in error and living in rebellion to the Lord, right?
I understand the New Covenant is based on better promises... consequently the rest provided to God's people under the New Covenant is far superior than what was provided under the old covenant because of the peace Jesus provides to those abiding IN Him.
Sabbatarians cannot show where observing Saturday sabbath was taught by Jesus, His Apostles, or that any corrections were given to anyone for not observing Saturday sabbath, or even any encouragement was given that Christians should observe Saturday sabbath, not to mention the Counsel at Jerusalem's findings that did not tell is Christians should observe Saturday sabbath.
So all of this points to Saturday sabbath as not being something Christians do. I don't see why sabbatarians would be upset when others question the practice of observing Saturday sabbath seeing this is not a New Testament teaching.
Well sabbatarians have no proof from the New Testament that points to Saturday sabbath as being something Christians do, so you folks are arguing for something that is non existent in the New Covenant that Jesus Christ presides over..
So really, there's not much of a debate at all.
Sabbatarians would be much better off just saying "we just prefer to have church and rest on Saturday" and leave it at that rather than claiming this is a New Testament practice when there is no teaching in the New Testament that shows that.
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