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What I suggest for you to do immediately is to Pray that God will include her, and her Muslim partner among those whom He is drawing to Himself so that they may intimately know the Father and His Son and the purposes that He has for their respective lives.
Then with joy in your heart continue often with Thanking God that He has heard your prayer request and is working on drawing your daughter and her partner to Himself and to His purposes for their respective lives.
Keep joyfully thanking God until such time that He shows you that your prayer request has been answered.
While you are joyfully thanking God for His drawing of your daughter and her partner to Himself, you may also like to ask God to draw you into a deeper relationship with Him such that you can trust Him in all things and be part of God's solution in becoming the best dad that you can be for your daughter and a friend for her partner.
Remember that it is your relationship with the Father that will shine through for your daughter and her partner to see and observe.
Shalom
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Debp
Well-Known Member
I understand you can't dictate anything to a 26 YO woman. But is your daughter a born again Christian?
You might mention to her if they should marry, that any children will be raised as Muslims. Also, usually as a wife, she would be required to convert to Islam. And usually Muslim men, after marriage, would require her to wear Islamic dress. Also, submission is required for the wife. If a wife is disobedient in Islam, beating is allowed.
However, God can still work in their lives. Perhaps you can ask both of them in a friendly manner to attend church with you. See what the reaction is from the boyfriend.
Do you invite the boyfriend over to your home? Perhaps the Lord can use that as the boyfriend observes your faith....prayer at meal times, etc.
Is the boyfriend Middle Eastern Muslim or South Asian? I have observed that the Middle Eastern Muslims seem more entrenched in Islam.
Is your daughter born again? That is a big factor. People of different faiths being married to each other can cause no end of problems so it's not a step to be taken lightly.
Taken
Well-Known Member
Dating is one thing. Getting serious toward ideas of marriage, and one does not understand the religious “laws, rules, expectations” of male and female roles according to the marriages in particular religions…. Yes, I would be concerned.
I know domestic and foreign people in the US who claim to be a particular religion and keep strict adherence to their religion (same for Christians) and others who do not.
I knew an American christian woman who married a foreign muslim man in the US. They had two small children and their relationship went sour. Without divorcing, the man took the children and returned to the Middle East to his country of origin. She did not know his family or how to ever find her children.
It can be complicated and wandering naively into uncharted territory would be my concern.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
I raised 4 girls. Yes, be concerned but not freaked out.
You did not tell us much about this man. Do you know much?
- Is he a nominal Muslim or devout?
- How old is he?
- Have you met him?
- Do you like him?
- How does he compare to your daughter’s past boyfriends?
- What is his education level?
- How does that compare to your daughter’s education?
- Same with income level; how much does he make?
- How does that compare to your daughter’s education level?
- Same with culture; was he raised in an Islamic culture?
- Does he speak English fluently or with strong accent?
- Does he speak Arabic?
- Family; is he from a rich family?
- How much control does his father have over him?
- How does he treat his mother?
- What do his parents do for a living?
- Siblings; does he have any?
- What do they do for a living?
- All questions about income, language education, culture apply to his siblings.
- How does the culture he was raised in compare to the culture your daughter was raised in?
- What qualities does he have that makes you think he’d make a good husband for your daughter?
- What qualities does he lack that makes you think he’d make a bad husband for your daughter?
- Your relationship with your daughter; how close are you to your daughter?
- How did you raise your daughter as far as dating, sex and marriage?
- How have you guided your daughter in handling her relationship with past boyfriends?
- How would your daughter react if you blessed the relationship? And how would she react if you cursed/ rejected/forbid the relationship?
My spirit has been saddened with prescriptive solutions and questions concerning the daughter's status in the Lord from a spiritual perspective.
What I posted was for the father to give the issue over to God to deal with and for the father to put his complete trust in the Lord to resolve the potential problems in His way and in His timing. For the father of the daughter to also pray for His own salvation and to be drawn deeper into the fertile field that God has drawn him into and to send roots down into the fertile soil so that all of his nourishment come from the Lord.
The father needs his heart to be protected by God's Love as well as the daughter's.
All of us need to hand problems over to the Lord to resolve in His way and in His timing. We all need to get out of God's way to allow God to provide the right solution in every situation.
Shalom
What I posted was for the father to give the issue over to God to deal with and for the father to put his complete trust in the Lord to resolve the potential problems in His way and in His timing. For the father of the daughter to also pray for His own salvation and to be drawn deeper into the fertile field that God has drawn him into and to send roots down into the fertile soil so that all of his nourishment come from the Lord.
The father needs his heart to be protected by God's Love as well as the daughter's.
All of us need to hand problems over to the Lord to resolve in His way and in His timing. We all need to get out of God's way to allow God to provide the right solution in every situation.
Shalom
The devil is doing his best to turn your daughter away from the Lord.
She cannot be a Christians and be unequally yoked to an unbeliever.
If it were me, I would NOT be able to give them any material support whatsoever including being in agreement with them being together or going to their wedding should they get married.
All the while telling her in private that you love here and are staying in continued prayer for her to repent of the sin of being unequally yoked with an unbeliever.... and witnessing to the muslim guy telling Him he needs to turn away from the sin of following false gods and accept Jesus because you care for him and don't want to see him go to hell.
Now, many today who claim to be Christians will say it's no big deal and some will even say islam leads to salvation as do all religions which of course is bunk.
Of course we trust the Lord and pray for people in faith based on specific promises found in God's Word.
BUT, we need to speak up and teach God's Word as well!
We need to advocate for what the Lord has to say to mankind to others!
Romans 10:14
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Hazelelponi
Well-Known Member
Hello Logo,
My name is Hazel and it's nice to meet you, and I pray you are well.
I want to begin by saying this is an area in which I actually can say I have expertise in. I was a born Muslim (a distinction that absolutely matters for the purposes of our conversation) who was saved some years back now.
My first thoughts when I read your thread is that you should be very afraid... Afraid for your daughter, and afraid for any future grandchildren you may have out of such a union.
However, that's emotionally charged on my part due to a number of factors concerning male headship in the home, and cultural and faith differences between what Christian's believe in accordance with scriptures and what Muslims believe - for which you deserve a thorough explanation that would serve to help guide you through what I see as a potential nightmare for your daughter, and and absolute disaster for your, yet future, grandchildren.
This said, I am going to explain why by sharing many things with you, so basically this is a warning that I'm about to write a book... Lol. Pull up a chair and get comfortable. There's a lot you'll need to consider here.
My explanation is to be continued over the next couple hours, I won't be doing anything but writing now, so I'm posting this post as an intro because I'm slow at explanations like this, and I didn't want you to think I was ignoring you...
My next post will be the book... Lol (hyperbole certainly, but not terribly far off.)
God bless you. Be right back.
Hazelelponi
Well-Known Member
The first real waves of immigration from Muslim nations to America and other western nations started with my parents generation, generally speaking. I was among some of the first Muslims born into a western nation. (I'm American).
My parents were downright liberal for Muslims - which isn't unheard of, certainly not every Muslim is an extremist and many just want to live a quality life just like you.
However, downright liberal for a Muslim is still really very conservative to the cultural Christian, in some cases might even seem more than just a little strict.
Islam, and therefore Muslims culturally, largely remain a couple hundred years behind Christians. And this does express itself most strongly inside the home, where you'll never see as an outsider.
You might find it interesting to know that what we know of today as Islamic extremism began in the modern day as a direct result of and counter to, the liberalism of my parents generation. The liberalism of my parents generation was always, perhaps rightly so or perhaps wrongly so, seen as a direct result of western influence - hence why western culture itself became a direct target for extremists, not just western nation governments.
The above is something you may also need to consider. People always see Muslims lately as being fine with "us" as Americans and or British people, but just hate our government policies that result in wars and the like - but NOTHING could be farther from the truth. That's pure propaganda you bought into if you believe that. They hate everything about your culture as well.
Extremists despise, in ways that would truly make your blood curdle, your cultural freedom itself.
So okay. While Islam allows Muslim men to marry outside the faith, Muslims generally seek to marry other Muslims. Like any other faith this is always the goal so that the children out of the union are raised properly in the faith having both mother and father being faithful.
Islam cannot be described as a religion such as modern Christians view religion to be. It's very holistic in that by design it's self policing and is the umbrella for every aspect of your life.
Islam isn't a person's faith so much as it's your government: and that government has checks and balances throughout and rules everything about and in a person's life. It first governs the individual, then it governs the family, then it governs by community, then it governs by government.
It is not like the modern Christianity. There's literally no other comparison to it in the world. Islam rules every step of your life. It's slavery in comparison to the Christian faith. Literally.
And woman are very low in that totem pole - I am one, I tell you this from personal experience.
So now let's talk about the most important part relating to your daughter - male headship in the home.
In Christianity, marriage is always to be a reflection of Christ's relationship with his bride, the church. Everything about it is supposed to be self sacrificing, forgiving and loving, as Christ is with His bride, the church.
I will tell you from personal experience that when you have two truly saved Christians who are married, and who follow in truth these biblical teachings on marriage it's quite beautiful and leads to a happy marriage.
Honestly in my life the second greatest gift God ever gave me, second only to salvation itself, was my Christian husband. A marriage where both are in Christ is simply a beautiful thing... reflecting everything beautiful and wonderful about Christ.
Life is full of challenges and such, and married people can get frustrated with one another like anyone else but when the focus is always on the examples
of sacrifice and forgiveness and the resulting love these life challenges just seem so minor and are easy to work through.
My first husband was Muslim, my father was Muslim...
But my Christian husband? Wow.. just seriously no comparison in a truly Christ centered, Christ honoring home.
I'm telling you this because many Christians in the west may not know what a Biblical Christian marriage really is and looks like. There does seem to my eyes a confusion with many modern western Christians as to what Christian marriages are supposed to be.
So I'll help, they reflect Christ and His bride. He gave everything in love for her, and she her all in love of Him because of His loving sacrifice. While Christ is the head of the church the Christian man reflects this in His headship of the home.
And in Christianity this male headship really really really matters.
And in Islam male headship really really really really matters. (Extra emphasis added).
I'll say it again because I don't think Christians understand anymore just how much male headship matters. MALE HEADSHIP MATTERS!
It matters to the practice and daily life of the home, and I would argue the actual spiritual well-being of the home also.
I'm not some crazed loon religious extremist... So please don't take me as being one. But this is a truly serious matter, because male headship in Islam looks and is quite different. It's not reflective of Christ and His sacrifice for the Church, it's reflective of what is the best modern example of His antithesis we have - the "prophet" Mohammed.
For the woman living under headship, the difference is between one that reflects sacrifice and one that better reflects slavery.
In an Islamic home, male headship is quite real unlike many modern Christian homes. And you better believe they take that responsibility seriously. Even a liberal Muslim man takes on his headship role as a mantle of responsibility, and they are taught how wield that responsibility by their own father's.
That also means how a young Muslim man of marrying age was raised is far more important when looking to marry a Muslim man... His raising and the quality thereof is far more important than if you were looking to marry another Christian because of the seriousness of the responsibility with which Muslim men take their role as head of the home.
Going back to the beginning of this hyperbolic book now, I'd like to bring back up these waves of immigration again, and share with you what Muslims have learned trying to marry off our own children who were born into western nations .. we as a group found serious challenges in finding spouses for our children, and these challenges really matter, because they will be compounded and exacerbated by the fact your daughter has no Islamic background whatsoever and has likely never experienced male headship at all...
(If she had ever experienced male headship as a Christian she would never in a million years be looking at a Muslim to marry, so I would assert she's never even seen it, but I admit this is simply an assumption on my part, so I may be wrong.)
When the first waves of Muslim children were born and raised on Western soil, I don't think anyone really knew the challenges that were in store.
There are huge cultural differences between Muslims raised in the west (a highly highly highly liberal culture around us all our young lives) and Muslims raised in the rest of the Islamic world.
What we found, was that by and large, even as born Muslims, we can't intermarry a child raised in the west with a child raised in an Islamic nation. The marriages turn into nightmares for our own children a good portion of the time.
They can work if the kids are solidly dedicated, which Muslims usually at least really do try to be, but they are unhappy more often than not so we started, by and large, being careful to marry western raised children to other western raised children.
And again, right now I'm talking about Muslims marrying one another. Muslims who hold the same beliefs on major issues like right and wrong, male headship etc and get along well together when they first meet.
Well of course this is a problem in a western nation when you want to find a Muslim spouse - there's few Muslims to choose from.
The western raised daughters like myself who married immigrants (we are worth everything because we come with free citizenship) often found themselves in the middle of a nightmare, not a marriage.
I won't recount the issues I personally had, but suffice it to say that unlike my mother who had a good marriage and a good amount of freedom for a Muslim woman, my marriage reflected hell on earth.
Cultural differences matter in a marriage. They matter. They can change everything. No one understands this more acutely than I so I cannot stress this enough.
People would have had to killed me to allow my daughter to marry a Muslim who wasn't born in the west. It can be just that bad for the woman in a marriage.
And honestly, I as a Christian, knowing all I now know from all sides of this particular fence, that if I had a Christian daughter, they would have to kill me to allow my daughter to marry a Muslim man, even one born and raised in the west...
Cultural differences matter, and Islam rules everything about your life.
Can such marriages work out? By some miracle some do, some western raised Christian-type background women have been happy with a Muslim husband. But it's the exception, not the rule.
Cultural differences matter. Differences in faith matters. Differences in the way you are raised matters.
I've seen American woman marry a Muslim man who seemed like sunshine and roses before they were trapped in a marriage, then be forced to both adopt and practice Islam and be completely miserable too.
Men can lie, and they are really good at it.
I'm going to take a break here for an hour or two, then I'll come back and write more for you to consider.
Next up, the role of the woman, and her place in society when I come back.
God bless you.
My parents were downright liberal for Muslims - which isn't unheard of, certainly not every Muslim is an extremist and many just want to live a quality life just like you.
However, downright liberal for a Muslim is still really very conservative to the cultural Christian, in some cases might even seem more than just a little strict.
Islam, and therefore Muslims culturally, largely remain a couple hundred years behind Christians. And this does express itself most strongly inside the home, where you'll never see as an outsider.
You might find it interesting to know that what we know of today as Islamic extremism began in the modern day as a direct result of and counter to, the liberalism of my parents generation. The liberalism of my parents generation was always, perhaps rightly so or perhaps wrongly so, seen as a direct result of western influence - hence why western culture itself became a direct target for extremists, not just western nation governments.
The above is something you may also need to consider. People always see Muslims lately as being fine with "us" as Americans and or British people, but just hate our government policies that result in wars and the like - but NOTHING could be farther from the truth. That's pure propaganda you bought into if you believe that. They hate everything about your culture as well.
Extremists despise, in ways that would truly make your blood curdle, your cultural freedom itself.
So okay. While Islam allows Muslim men to marry outside the faith, Muslims generally seek to marry other Muslims. Like any other faith this is always the goal so that the children out of the union are raised properly in the faith having both mother and father being faithful.
Islam cannot be described as a religion such as modern Christians view religion to be. It's very holistic in that by design it's self policing and is the umbrella for every aspect of your life.
Islam isn't a person's faith so much as it's your government: and that government has checks and balances throughout and rules everything about and in a person's life. It first governs the individual, then it governs the family, then it governs by community, then it governs by government.
It is not like the modern Christianity. There's literally no other comparison to it in the world. Islam rules every step of your life. It's slavery in comparison to the Christian faith. Literally.
And woman are very low in that totem pole - I am one, I tell you this from personal experience.
So now let's talk about the most important part relating to your daughter - male headship in the home.
In Christianity, marriage is always to be a reflection of Christ's relationship with his bride, the church. Everything about it is supposed to be self sacrificing, forgiving and loving, as Christ is with His bride, the church.
I will tell you from personal experience that when you have two truly saved Christians who are married, and who follow in truth these biblical teachings on marriage it's quite beautiful and leads to a happy marriage.
Honestly in my life the second greatest gift God ever gave me, second only to salvation itself, was my Christian husband. A marriage where both are in Christ is simply a beautiful thing... reflecting everything beautiful and wonderful about Christ.
Life is full of challenges and such, and married people can get frustrated with one another like anyone else but when the focus is always on the examples
of sacrifice and forgiveness and the resulting love these life challenges just seem so minor and are easy to work through.
My first husband was Muslim, my father was Muslim...
But my Christian husband? Wow.. just seriously no comparison in a truly Christ centered, Christ honoring home.
I'm telling you this because many Christians in the west may not know what a Biblical Christian marriage really is and looks like. There does seem to my eyes a confusion with many modern western Christians as to what Christian marriages are supposed to be.
So I'll help, they reflect Christ and His bride. He gave everything in love for her, and she her all in love of Him because of His loving sacrifice. While Christ is the head of the church the Christian man reflects this in His headship of the home.
And in Christianity this male headship really really really matters.
And in Islam male headship really really really really matters. (Extra emphasis added).
I'll say it again because I don't think Christians understand anymore just how much male headship matters. MALE HEADSHIP MATTERS!
It matters to the practice and daily life of the home, and I would argue the actual spiritual well-being of the home also.
I'm not some crazed loon religious extremist... So please don't take me as being one. But this is a truly serious matter, because male headship in Islam looks and is quite different. It's not reflective of Christ and His sacrifice for the Church, it's reflective of what is the best modern example of His antithesis we have - the "prophet" Mohammed.
For the woman living under headship, the difference is between one that reflects sacrifice and one that better reflects slavery.
In an Islamic home, male headship is quite real unlike many modern Christian homes. And you better believe they take that responsibility seriously. Even a liberal Muslim man takes on his headship role as a mantle of responsibility, and they are taught how wield that responsibility by their own father's.
That also means how a young Muslim man of marrying age was raised is far more important when looking to marry a Muslim man... His raising and the quality thereof is far more important than if you were looking to marry another Christian because of the seriousness of the responsibility with which Muslim men take their role as head of the home.
Going back to the beginning of this hyperbolic book now, I'd like to bring back up these waves of immigration again, and share with you what Muslims have learned trying to marry off our own children who were born into western nations .. we as a group found serious challenges in finding spouses for our children, and these challenges really matter, because they will be compounded and exacerbated by the fact your daughter has no Islamic background whatsoever and has likely never experienced male headship at all...
(If she had ever experienced male headship as a Christian she would never in a million years be looking at a Muslim to marry, so I would assert she's never even seen it, but I admit this is simply an assumption on my part, so I may be wrong.)
When the first waves of Muslim children were born and raised on Western soil, I don't think anyone really knew the challenges that were in store.
There are huge cultural differences between Muslims raised in the west (a highly highly highly liberal culture around us all our young lives) and Muslims raised in the rest of the Islamic world.
What we found, was that by and large, even as born Muslims, we can't intermarry a child raised in the west with a child raised in an Islamic nation. The marriages turn into nightmares for our own children a good portion of the time.
They can work if the kids are solidly dedicated, which Muslims usually at least really do try to be, but they are unhappy more often than not so we started, by and large, being careful to marry western raised children to other western raised children.
And again, right now I'm talking about Muslims marrying one another. Muslims who hold the same beliefs on major issues like right and wrong, male headship etc and get along well together when they first meet.
Well of course this is a problem in a western nation when you want to find a Muslim spouse - there's few Muslims to choose from.
The western raised daughters like myself who married immigrants (we are worth everything because we come with free citizenship) often found themselves in the middle of a nightmare, not a marriage.
I won't recount the issues I personally had, but suffice it to say that unlike my mother who had a good marriage and a good amount of freedom for a Muslim woman, my marriage reflected hell on earth.
Cultural differences matter in a marriage. They matter. They can change everything. No one understands this more acutely than I so I cannot stress this enough.
People would have had to killed me to allow my daughter to marry a Muslim who wasn't born in the west. It can be just that bad for the woman in a marriage.
And honestly, I as a Christian, knowing all I now know from all sides of this particular fence, that if I had a Christian daughter, they would have to kill me to allow my daughter to marry a Muslim man, even one born and raised in the west...
Cultural differences matter, and Islam rules everything about your life.
Can such marriages work out? By some miracle some do, some western raised Christian-type background women have been happy with a Muslim husband. But it's the exception, not the rule.
Cultural differences matter. Differences in faith matters. Differences in the way you are raised matters.
I've seen American woman marry a Muslim man who seemed like sunshine and roses before they were trapped in a marriage, then be forced to both adopt and practice Islam and be completely miserable too.
Men can lie, and they are really good at it.
I'm going to take a break here for an hour or two, then I'll come back and write more for you to consider.
Next up, the role of the woman, and her place in society when I come back.
God bless you.
Hazelelponi
Well-Known Member
I warned you I am slow - haha it's because I'm typing directly into the forum on my phone as opposed to sitting at the computer typing so it's a little more time for me to accomplish... Lol
Okay so how does all I said above translate into life for the woman in society and home? That's what this post is about.
In Islam the role of women is wife and mother, and in the more religious areas women rarely leave their homes and they don't go out or do anything without their husbands permission, and in some cases they are not allowed to leave their homes without escort.
Houses are actually set up in many areas to accommodate this by having an open air courtyard in the center of the home, which are multiple family living units. The multiple families in the homes set up like this are all related to one another so the woman can run around the house and courtyard without wearing hijab and also gives her other women in her life to visit with and talk to... Visiting friends outside the house requires permission and sometimes male escorts who are related to her.
Women in the more religious families don't grocery shop, they are often not even the people who decide what dinner will be, the men bring home food to cook, and that's that. The woman cooks what she is given - even if she has a college degree.
For western women, this life is nothing short of slavery and imprisonment.
Of course, you have all manner of degrees of permissibility from very liberal Muslims to very strict. But what a woman does or doesn't do is all up to the man she marries and what kind of family she was born into, as well as the laws, written and unwritten, in her country.
Many Muslim men who immigrate here and marry a western born Muslim women find the desire of women to do and go at will frustrating at best, and something to "bring to heel" at worst. Why? Because they are the head of the home and complete freedom for women simply doesn't exist.
In liberal western Muslim homes women, while we take a certain amount of direction from the men in our life, are given far greater leeway by our father's growing up. Mine was cool... He was a good dad.
To perhaps give you some measure of comparison, for me having been raised in a liberal Muslim household in the west, culturally I found many similarities between us and mountain people in the Appalachian region of the United States.
Ha! Shocking I know, but family and community and in some cases a commitment to Christ holds the same level of importance out here so for me this is a beautiful home that has all the positives I enjoyed as a Muslim, (family , community) but with the Spirit of Christ making it feel nothing short of perfect.
So basically I figure, liberal western raised Muslims can seem as "backwards" culturally when you really get to know them to the average American city dweller, as the city dwellers think an Appalachian hillbilly is.
For a young Muslim man, his family will absolutely always be a HUGE factor in any marriage. Family means something in Islamic households that you simply don't see in any American household I've ever seen. What his family will or will not accept in his wife will affect how she is treated, both by him and by his family.
I have seen a Muslim man who married without his families approval, end up divorcing over his families disapproval of choice, right here in America. It happens, you either have his families approval, (and for a mans wife this approval largely comes from mother and sisters, their personal opinion matters here) or you don't have a chance for a good marriage. Not even a small chance because family is too important, and a mans mother has great worth to him.
It is the responsibility of the eldest son's wife, to take care of his mother in her old age. Therefore the wife and mother getting along and sharing mutual respect is paramount.
I know maybe this all sounds weird, but this is the culture and the faith. It just is. It's not something you can change, so these considerations are too important.
Going back to male headship, in the absence of the father, the eldest son takes that responsibility over his mother as well.
And yes, I got permission from my adult son to get married to my current husband... (I fought for it though! Lol..) but they get along beautifully now those two.
So .. I will close again for another break from typing, and then continue with raising children next.
God bless. Be back in a bit. :)
Okay so how does all I said above translate into life for the woman in society and home? That's what this post is about.
In Islam the role of women is wife and mother, and in the more religious areas women rarely leave their homes and they don't go out or do anything without their husbands permission, and in some cases they are not allowed to leave their homes without escort.
Houses are actually set up in many areas to accommodate this by having an open air courtyard in the center of the home, which are multiple family living units. The multiple families in the homes set up like this are all related to one another so the woman can run around the house and courtyard without wearing hijab and also gives her other women in her life to visit with and talk to... Visiting friends outside the house requires permission and sometimes male escorts who are related to her.
Women in the more religious families don't grocery shop, they are often not even the people who decide what dinner will be, the men bring home food to cook, and that's that. The woman cooks what she is given - even if she has a college degree.
For western women, this life is nothing short of slavery and imprisonment.
Of course, you have all manner of degrees of permissibility from very liberal Muslims to very strict. But what a woman does or doesn't do is all up to the man she marries and what kind of family she was born into, as well as the laws, written and unwritten, in her country.
Many Muslim men who immigrate here and marry a western born Muslim women find the desire of women to do and go at will frustrating at best, and something to "bring to heel" at worst. Why? Because they are the head of the home and complete freedom for women simply doesn't exist.
In liberal western Muslim homes women, while we take a certain amount of direction from the men in our life, are given far greater leeway by our father's growing up. Mine was cool... He was a good dad.
To perhaps give you some measure of comparison, for me having been raised in a liberal Muslim household in the west, culturally I found many similarities between us and mountain people in the Appalachian region of the United States.
Ha! Shocking I know, but family and community and in some cases a commitment to Christ holds the same level of importance out here so for me this is a beautiful home that has all the positives I enjoyed as a Muslim, (family , community) but with the Spirit of Christ making it feel nothing short of perfect.
So basically I figure, liberal western raised Muslims can seem as "backwards" culturally when you really get to know them to the average American city dweller, as the city dwellers think an Appalachian hillbilly is.
For a young Muslim man, his family will absolutely always be a HUGE factor in any marriage. Family means something in Islamic households that you simply don't see in any American household I've ever seen. What his family will or will not accept in his wife will affect how she is treated, both by him and by his family.
I have seen a Muslim man who married without his families approval, end up divorcing over his families disapproval of choice, right here in America. It happens, you either have his families approval, (and for a mans wife this approval largely comes from mother and sisters, their personal opinion matters here) or you don't have a chance for a good marriage. Not even a small chance because family is too important, and a mans mother has great worth to him.
It is the responsibility of the eldest son's wife, to take care of his mother in her old age. Therefore the wife and mother getting along and sharing mutual respect is paramount.
I know maybe this all sounds weird, but this is the culture and the faith. It just is. It's not something you can change, so these considerations are too important.
Going back to male headship, in the absence of the father, the eldest son takes that responsibility over his mother as well.
And yes, I got permission from my adult son to get married to my current husband... (I fought for it though! Lol..) but they get along beautifully now those two.
So .. I will close again for another break from typing, and then continue with raising children next.
God bless. Be back in a bit. :)
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Hazelelponi
Well-Known Member
I have to start with sanctification when there's an unbelieving spouse, because both religions have rather similar concepts, but they apply very differently in Islam than they do in the Christian faith.
In Christianity, when one spouse doesn't believe in Christ, sanctification is through the believing spouse.
"For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. But if the unbeliever leaves, let it be so" 1 Corinthians 7:14-16
It needs to be said that this teaching is not license for Christian women to up and marry any unbeliever they feel like, but because in early Christianity people were converting to the faith as new believers and God determined sanctification of the children in such cases where only one spouse would convert.
In Islam, this basic concept is accomplished through keeping the headship of the house to always be Muslim and male. This is why a Muslim man can marry a Christian woman, but it's not allowed for a Muslim woman to marry a Christian man. The headship of the Muslim homes are always the husband.
This is another governmental type concept because it's about the children.
When I say governmental I actually mean that. Families will kill their Muslim daughters before they will let their Muslim daughters marry a Christian in most families.
I have personally dealt with this, because I'm American the younger Muslim women would often come to me for advice and with their problems. One such young woman fell in love with a Christian boy here in the states and they wanted to get married.
She knew what was at stake if she did, but sometimes they don't understand. You know? At any rate they eloped, moved to a different state and tried to hide from her family.
Her family hunted them down, kidnapped her, drugged her and got her on a plane, took her to the Middle East and killed her. A lesson to any other young women with similar minds.
This is the level of importance that Muslims place on the concept of headship always being in a Muslim man. It's quite serious.
When a Muslim man marries outside of his faith, he raises the children as Muslims.
^^^ no matter what kind of promises he may make, almost regardless of how liberal the Muslim, Christianity will not be taught to children of that marriage.
It won't be allowed. The only exposure to her faith her children will receive will be through watching her practice her faith, and whatever knowledge of it the Muslim man allows.
Any marriage to a Muslim man has to be with this in mind, the children will grow up in Islam. No question.
Not only that, but the responsibility of raising children as Muslims, can often turn the most liberal Muslim man into what looks like a religious zealot.
Seriously. There's a real sense of responsibility to do this placed on Muslim men that rarely if ever has a similar counterpart in practicing western Christians with which to compare. I cannot even think of a comparison because Islam has so many rules in its practice - 5 times a day prayer, ablutions, memorizing enough of the Qur'an to pray etc. Islam is law upon law, rules upon rules. It's a lot to not only teach a child, plus you have to teach it so all those activities are just plain habitual. Things you could do in your sleep and would do all the time.
I guess someone who's not a person of faith would coin this as training your child's brain into a certain pattern of habit to include the prayers and practice of Islam.
When a child is born the Muslim father is in the room, because as soon as the child is born the first sound they should hear is their father whispering the shahadah in their ear.
Because of this the father is also the first person to hold his newborn child - before the mother gets to see her baby.
If you didn't know, the shahadah is the Muslims statement of faith.
I think this is sufficient to explain children...
I'll wait until tonight before posting again, but next time I have some Scripture to share, my closing thoughts, and though I no longer own a Qur'an or any Islamic religious material, I'll try and look a few things up to share with you so you can see some of this in writing as well.
God bless, and I pray you have a lovely day. It's afternoon here now and it's time for me to get some chores done and such... Life goes on, even when the Internet seems to stop... Lol
In Christianity, when one spouse doesn't believe in Christ, sanctification is through the believing spouse.
"For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. But if the unbeliever leaves, let it be so" 1 Corinthians 7:14-16
It needs to be said that this teaching is not license for Christian women to up and marry any unbeliever they feel like, but because in early Christianity people were converting to the faith as new believers and God determined sanctification of the children in such cases where only one spouse would convert.
In Islam, this basic concept is accomplished through keeping the headship of the house to always be Muslim and male. This is why a Muslim man can marry a Christian woman, but it's not allowed for a Muslim woman to marry a Christian man. The headship of the Muslim homes are always the husband.
This is another governmental type concept because it's about the children.
When I say governmental I actually mean that. Families will kill their Muslim daughters before they will let their Muslim daughters marry a Christian in most families.
I have personally dealt with this, because I'm American the younger Muslim women would often come to me for advice and with their problems. One such young woman fell in love with a Christian boy here in the states and they wanted to get married.
She knew what was at stake if she did, but sometimes they don't understand. You know? At any rate they eloped, moved to a different state and tried to hide from her family.
Her family hunted them down, kidnapped her, drugged her and got her on a plane, took her to the Middle East and killed her. A lesson to any other young women with similar minds.
This is the level of importance that Muslims place on the concept of headship always being in a Muslim man. It's quite serious.
When a Muslim man marries outside of his faith, he raises the children as Muslims.
^^^ no matter what kind of promises he may make, almost regardless of how liberal the Muslim, Christianity will not be taught to children of that marriage.
It won't be allowed. The only exposure to her faith her children will receive will be through watching her practice her faith, and whatever knowledge of it the Muslim man allows.
Any marriage to a Muslim man has to be with this in mind, the children will grow up in Islam. No question.
Not only that, but the responsibility of raising children as Muslims, can often turn the most liberal Muslim man into what looks like a religious zealot.
Seriously. There's a real sense of responsibility to do this placed on Muslim men that rarely if ever has a similar counterpart in practicing western Christians with which to compare. I cannot even think of a comparison because Islam has so many rules in its practice - 5 times a day prayer, ablutions, memorizing enough of the Qur'an to pray etc. Islam is law upon law, rules upon rules. It's a lot to not only teach a child, plus you have to teach it so all those activities are just plain habitual. Things you could do in your sleep and would do all the time.
I guess someone who's not a person of faith would coin this as training your child's brain into a certain pattern of habit to include the prayers and practice of Islam.
When a child is born the Muslim father is in the room, because as soon as the child is born the first sound they should hear is their father whispering the shahadah in their ear.
Because of this the father is also the first person to hold his newborn child - before the mother gets to see her baby.
If you didn't know, the shahadah is the Muslims statement of faith.
I think this is sufficient to explain children...
I'll wait until tonight before posting again, but next time I have some Scripture to share, my closing thoughts, and though I no longer own a Qur'an or any Islamic religious material, I'll try and look a few things up to share with you so you can see some of this in writing as well.
God bless, and I pray you have a lovely day. It's afternoon here now and it's time for me to get some chores done and such... Life goes on, even when the Internet seems to stop... Lol
Eve IF she is a Christian... if she turns away from the Lord she will not be spending eternity with the Lord.
Hazelelponi
Well-Known Member
Good evening @Logo - I hope you're day was a good one.
I am sorry all this is taking me so long to share, but there's no shorter way to explain because you have to understand what you're truthfully looking at in this potential marriage.
Your looking at the potential of your daughter being physically abused (I am permanently disabled due to physical abuse at the hand of my ex), of being rejected by his family, the potential if she decided to divorce after having children of not even getting custody of them (and they play dirty over this, No Muslim man is just going to hand his children over to Christians to be raised) and never being able to influence the faith of your grandchildren.
I have grandchildren I will never be allowed to see again because I am Christian. These are serious issues.
As a Christian this should terrify anyone. And honestly it should. If it doesn't then I would posit you still don't understand just how serious these issues really are.
If this was my daughter I wouldn't get off my knees until she came to her senses. Your daughter is an adult, and it can be difficult to influence them at this stage of life, especially American children, but if this was my child I wouldn't stop trying to prevent it from happening.
And if I couldn't prevent it, you better believe I'd be drawing up an iron clad marriage contract with provisions...
Ohh... Marriage contracts. They're real. Marriage in Islam is a contract - NOT a covenant. Completely, completely different concepts. Night and day.
So let me get to issues of the Christian faith here. In our faith, due to the sin of Adam all of mankind fell under the curse. There is a natural order that was distorted when Adam sinned, and therefore all of mankind fell under the curse.
Most I don't believe understand why curse mankind when the sin was Adam's, but the covenant concept that is upheld in our faith is something we deal with on a daily basis even yet today.
We have a government that represents us, we have representation in Congress speaking on our behalf. These are examples of headship of a group that we deal with every day.
So, when the government of the people of Iran, for example, break international law, we put sanctions on the country.
The sanctions affect every single individual in that country even though the actions that were done may not have been completely supported by every single individual and in fact, some may not have even been born when those actions were taken but it doesn't change the fact that this government and all it's actions represents them.
When our government does bad things we don't get to wash the blood off our hands - so we strive for the best possible government.
WE see in Scripture that under the New Covenant, Christ has conquered the curse brought on by Adam: Broken through His perfect Life, His sacrificial death, and resurrection from the dead.
This is the "good news", otherwise known as the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Instead of the curse we are born under in Adam, which is death, Christ, through His death and resurrection has given us another way, an invitation, an open invitation, to come under the New Covenant of Christ, a Perfect Covenant, a perfect Head which has broken the curse and brings us life.
So now, though we are born under the curse, there's another option. One with Christ as our perfect Head.
After accepting said invitation to come under Christ, we are free in Christ as Scripture has told us. - "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." Romans 8:2
As Christians we have received our manumission. We now have the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus..
As such, we don't go selling ourselves back into slavery. We wouldn't want to do with our physical bodies what Christ gave His Life to set us free from. It's truly a ridiculous thought when you think about it.
Why turn your back on what is perfect for slavery and death? It's a ludicrous assumption that anyone would even consider it.
Yet people who don't understand what they were offered in Christ do it every day. And it is so sad, truly it is.
Christians display this covenant relationship that Christ has with the Church (all those who are saved in Christ) to the world, and to one another in the example of marriage.
Other people get married and have children, they call it marriage and many other things but only Christians have the ability within our marriages to display this covenant relationship between Christ and His bride... we know about this relationship, we are in it, therefore, we are also called upon to display it.
Christ, through His Holy Spirit, enables us to want and to do His Will.
There's a saying Christian-folk have and that's "The road to hell is paved with good intentions". I think that's a good saying because it's so very true.
You can have the right intentions, but if you do it in the wrong way you have still sinned.
Likewise you can have the right way, but have the wrong intentions and you have still sinned.
Anything, anything at all that we attempt to do in our flesh is going to be wrong, because our flesh is not glorified and perfected yet. It is only through the power of the Holy Spirit that we can do anything pleasing to God.
Our walk as Christians is one of overcoming the flesh and walking in the Spirit which is perfect. We may fall and falter, but Christ is with us, teaching us, guiding us..
Scripture tells us anything that is not of faith is sin.
Islam's stated goal is to try and accomplish in the flesh that which is impossible for the flesh to accomplish - that is to please God.
God has given us One Name under heaven by which to be saved and that Name is Jesus Christ.
Imagine standing before God saying "really God? You made a perfect way for me, but I don't really like that way, I think I'll do it my own way instead... "
That's what Islam does... It stands before God, in rebellion.
It looks like it submits to God because there's rules upon rules and laws upon laws and if someone in the community steps too far out of line from those rules and laws they are killed.
It looks great... But that's the most deceptive part because in reality it's nothing short of a rejection of God's plan for salvation standing before God, middle finger up, saying I don't need you, I will save myself.
But they can't save themselves. If they could Christ would not have needed to come down to earth to fulfill the law in our stead.
When Christ on that cross said "It is Finished" it was absolutely and 100% finished. Christ accomplished all the work. So that in Christ and through Christ we walk in His perfect Life.
To later take the freedom then that we are given, and sell ourselves out we have committed grave sin...
And this is where your daughter is, about to sell herself out of freedom and trade it for slavery not just for herself, but also for her children.
Love demands she be warned... Love demands it!
God bless, and good night. I'm again sorry for the time. I am doing my very best to help you. But this is such a deep subject and I have to give thorough answer to it.
I'll add more in the morning. God bless.
I do need to add that we are in the middle of a winter storm now so if for any reason beyond my control I'm not here quickly posting again just know I'll be here continuing as I'm able... No worries. :)
I am sorry all this is taking me so long to share, but there's no shorter way to explain because you have to understand what you're truthfully looking at in this potential marriage.
Your looking at the potential of your daughter being physically abused (I am permanently disabled due to physical abuse at the hand of my ex), of being rejected by his family, the potential if she decided to divorce after having children of not even getting custody of them (and they play dirty over this, No Muslim man is just going to hand his children over to Christians to be raised) and never being able to influence the faith of your grandchildren.
I have grandchildren I will never be allowed to see again because I am Christian. These are serious issues.
As a Christian this should terrify anyone. And honestly it should. If it doesn't then I would posit you still don't understand just how serious these issues really are.
If this was my daughter I wouldn't get off my knees until she came to her senses. Your daughter is an adult, and it can be difficult to influence them at this stage of life, especially American children, but if this was my child I wouldn't stop trying to prevent it from happening.
And if I couldn't prevent it, you better believe I'd be drawing up an iron clad marriage contract with provisions...
Ohh... Marriage contracts. They're real. Marriage in Islam is a contract - NOT a covenant. Completely, completely different concepts. Night and day.
So let me get to issues of the Christian faith here. In our faith, due to the sin of Adam all of mankind fell under the curse. There is a natural order that was distorted when Adam sinned, and therefore all of mankind fell under the curse.
Most I don't believe understand why curse mankind when the sin was Adam's, but the covenant concept that is upheld in our faith is something we deal with on a daily basis even yet today.
We have a government that represents us, we have representation in Congress speaking on our behalf. These are examples of headship of a group that we deal with every day.
So, when the government of the people of Iran, for example, break international law, we put sanctions on the country.
The sanctions affect every single individual in that country even though the actions that were done may not have been completely supported by every single individual and in fact, some may not have even been born when those actions were taken but it doesn't change the fact that this government and all it's actions represents them.
When our government does bad things we don't get to wash the blood off our hands - so we strive for the best possible government.
WE see in Scripture that under the New Covenant, Christ has conquered the curse brought on by Adam: Broken through His perfect Life, His sacrificial death, and resurrection from the dead.
This is the "good news", otherwise known as the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Instead of the curse we are born under in Adam, which is death, Christ, through His death and resurrection has given us another way, an invitation, an open invitation, to come under the New Covenant of Christ, a Perfect Covenant, a perfect Head which has broken the curse and brings us life.
So now, though we are born under the curse, there's another option. One with Christ as our perfect Head.
After accepting said invitation to come under Christ, we are free in Christ as Scripture has told us. - "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." Romans 8:2
As Christians we have received our manumission. We now have the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus..
As such, we don't go selling ourselves back into slavery. We wouldn't want to do with our physical bodies what Christ gave His Life to set us free from. It's truly a ridiculous thought when you think about it.
Why turn your back on what is perfect for slavery and death? It's a ludicrous assumption that anyone would even consider it.
Yet people who don't understand what they were offered in Christ do it every day. And it is so sad, truly it is.
Christians display this covenant relationship that Christ has with the Church (all those who are saved in Christ) to the world, and to one another in the example of marriage.
Other people get married and have children, they call it marriage and many other things but only Christians have the ability within our marriages to display this covenant relationship between Christ and His bride... we know about this relationship, we are in it, therefore, we are also called upon to display it.
Christ, through His Holy Spirit, enables us to want and to do His Will.
There's a saying Christian-folk have and that's "The road to hell is paved with good intentions". I think that's a good saying because it's so very true.
You can have the right intentions, but if you do it in the wrong way you have still sinned.
Likewise you can have the right way, but have the wrong intentions and you have still sinned.
Anything, anything at all that we attempt to do in our flesh is going to be wrong, because our flesh is not glorified and perfected yet. It is only through the power of the Holy Spirit that we can do anything pleasing to God.
Our walk as Christians is one of overcoming the flesh and walking in the Spirit which is perfect. We may fall and falter, but Christ is with us, teaching us, guiding us..
Scripture tells us anything that is not of faith is sin.
Islam's stated goal is to try and accomplish in the flesh that which is impossible for the flesh to accomplish - that is to please God.
God has given us One Name under heaven by which to be saved and that Name is Jesus Christ.
Imagine standing before God saying "really God? You made a perfect way for me, but I don't really like that way, I think I'll do it my own way instead... "
That's what Islam does... It stands before God, in rebellion.
It looks like it submits to God because there's rules upon rules and laws upon laws and if someone in the community steps too far out of line from those rules and laws they are killed.
It looks great... But that's the most deceptive part because in reality it's nothing short of a rejection of God's plan for salvation standing before God, middle finger up, saying I don't need you, I will save myself.
But they can't save themselves. If they could Christ would not have needed to come down to earth to fulfill the law in our stead.
When Christ on that cross said "It is Finished" it was absolutely and 100% finished. Christ accomplished all the work. So that in Christ and through Christ we walk in His perfect Life.
To later take the freedom then that we are given, and sell ourselves out we have committed grave sin...
And this is where your daughter is, about to sell herself out of freedom and trade it for slavery not just for herself, but also for her children.
Love demands she be warned... Love demands it!
God bless, and good night. I'm again sorry for the time. I am doing my very best to help you. But this is such a deep subject and I have to give thorough answer to it.
I'll add more in the morning. God bless.
I do need to add that we are in the middle of a winter storm now so if for any reason beyond my control I'm not here quickly posting again just know I'll be here continuing as I'm able... No worries. :)
Last edited:
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Thank you Hazel for your posts on this matter. I admire your ability to explain the details and their implications. In short, you've done a yummy job.
Last edited:
Debp
Well-Known Member
I agree @Hazelelponi I'm reading through all of your posts, thanks for them.
I'm sorry sir, forgive me, but what you said in your post while it seemed righteous, it ignored the potential danger this young lady is getting into. A father has God-given authority and a duty of care to his unmarried daughter and prayers need to be for more than just the salvation of this muslim man. What about the life of the daughter? Doesn't she matter? Your post didn't mention giving the situation over to God, it only mentioned prayers for salvation. How does one give a situation over to God? Surely by bringing to Him and addressing and expressing to Him the very real and valid concerns one has. No reason why one can't pray for the salvation of parties involved while at the same time giving priority to dealing with the potentially perilous situation at hand.
I believe this father needs to urgently and fervently ask the Lord to intervene if this relationship and potential marriage is against His will and against the good of the daughter. And ask Him to rebuke and bind any seducing spirits which have come to steal and destroy lives. As well as acting practically by speaking to her and the muslim boyfriend about his misgivings......just be forthright and honest, kind but firm, that he regrettably can't give his blessing to this relationship as things stand right now. It wouldn't be in either parties best interests to start with due to very different backgrounds, especially for the daughter. And keep praying. The father has God-given spiritual authority on his side which is not to be underestimated, and probably the muslim man would respect the father standing up (in his God-given right) to protect his daughter's interests. (This is not talking about forcing anyone.....but standing up and speaking with prayer and authority behind it has power in itself.)
As a parent myself I understand where you're coming from. You already are concerned or you wouldn't be writing to ask about it. So in that case.....bring your very real concerns to the Lord and talk to Him about it. He invites us to cast our cares on Him, for He cares for us. .
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