Did Jesus raise hiself from the dead or did God yhe father raise him

[Aunty Jane]

Why not both?

I take Jesus’ words to the Pharisees to be a sentence passed on this nation whose track record was appalling.
Matt 23:37-39....
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you. 39 For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’” (Quoting Psalm 118:26)

Jerusalem here is not just the city, but represented the very centre of Jehovah’s worship on earth...the location of his temple where the Jewish people could have their sins temporarily atoned for by the sacrifice of animals.....picturing the blood that the “lamb of God” would sacrifice on their behalf.

Why would Jesus say the above? He recounted the fact that many of the prophets whom God had sent to his chosen nation were murdered, (stoned to death) because they dared to try and correct this wayward people. How often did Jehovah lament their disobedience and disgraceful behaviour! Jesus in his pre-human existence had witnessed it all through their sad and sorry history, as they tramped through the wilderness for 40 years. That was punishment for their disobedience as soon as they were liberated from slavery in Egypt. Yet because of his covenant, he provided for them in that harsh environment.

Only two of the original adults who left Egypt, after seeing all that Jehovah did in humiliating Egypt’s gods through the 10 plagues, and the parting of the Red Sea, actually set foot in the Promised land. And even after their coming into that land promised to their forefathers, their prosperity did not last, and they fell away to false worship....resulting in 70 years of exile in Babylon.....time and again they failed him. But God had made a covenant with Abraham, that one of his seed would save, not just Israel, but the faithful ones found in “all the nations” would also be “blessed”.
So it never was just about Israel....whom he kept as his people until his part of the covenant was fulfilled and when they proved by their final despicable act that they merited abandonment, Jehovah cast them off as a nation......but never did he cast off individuals from that nation who accepted his son as Messiah....or any other nation. (Acts 10:34-35)

John the Baptist told the Pharisees that God could raise up “sons of Abraham from the stones” if he needed to. Direct descent from the Abrahamic line meant nothing if they could not be faithful and obedient to their covenants with God. (Matt 3:7-10)

What if never keeping their covenants was God's purpose? (Think big picture.)

I have never lost sight of the big picture......in fact, I see in many of the responses on these threads, that so many who identify as “Christians” really have no concept of that “big picture”.

In choosing a nation to represent him to the world, Jehovah did not choose Israel because they were better than any other people....he chose them because he was going to bring his Messiah into the world and he wanted to reward his most faithful servant Abraham, who never got to see the terrible history that his descendants made....but in the big picture, God could use Israel as examples of those who were born into a covenant relationship with him...the only nation on earth who were obligated by birth to obey the laws laid down by their God. He demanded obedience (under penalty) and his laws were perfect, but his people were not. So Israel served as both good examples and bad ones. Showing us in the future what God expects of his worshippers. God’s laws were not hard to keep, but imperfect humans would find sin easier to obey.
Their need for a savior was evident in their repeated sacrifices to atone for their sins.

So the big picture for me is different from those who might see “Israel” as something she is not.
“The Israel of God” according to the apostle Paul was not fleshly Israel but a new Israel, made up of both Jewish and Gentile believers who accepted Jesus as Messiah and therefore accepted his means of forgiveness of their sins. Those who do not accept Jesus as their savior are still in them.....the nation of Israel was given back to the world to become a political nation rather than a spiritual one. She is a blood spiller, like all the rest and God will hold her just as accountable as he does those who take human life when Jesus told us to ‘love our enemies and to pray for them’. (Matt 5:43-48) You cannot “love” anyone with a weapon......so we are told by Jesus to be “no part of the world” just as he was no part of the world in his day. (John 17:16) He never got involved in politics, and he never interfered with the Roman government in their domination of his people....he showed them how to live in spite of what was going on around them.

So my big picture may be a lot different to those who see literal Israel through human eyes.....I see Israel through God’s eyes as he portrays them in his word, and in the words of his son and appointed judge and King.
Jesus said to the Jewish religious leaders......”you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’”
For the last 2000 years, the Jewish people as a nation, have rejected the one who came in the name of their God...a name that they have not uttered for all of that time. What makes us think that they will all just ‘jump ship’ at the end? That fleshly nation is not the one Jesus came to save......the “Israel of God” was created by Jehovah to replace the disobedient nation who only ever brought reproach on that holy name.

They assumed that “taking the Lord’s name in vain” would be nullified if they stopped saying it.....but that is not what that Commandment meant.....it meant not bringing reproach on Jehovah’s reputation by their disgraceful conduct...a memo they never seemed to comprehend.
They have never had peace...and as just another one of the political nations of this world, they never will.

 

[CadyandZoe]

So my big picture may be a lot different to those who see literal Israel through human eyes.....I see Israel through God’s eyes as he portrays them in his word, and in the words of his son and appointed judge and King.
Jesus said to the Jewish religious leaders......”you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’”
For the last 2000 years, the Jewish people as a nation, have rejected the one who came in the name of their God...a name that they have not uttered for all of that time. What makes us think that they will all just ‘jump ship’ at the end? That fleshly nation is not the one Jesus came to save......the “Israel of God” was created by Jehovah to replace the disobedient nation who only ever brought reproach on that holy name.

I agree with everything you said except your conclusion. I think that the church has taken the spirit/flesh dualism too far. Paul was talking about the "fleshy" nation in his argument recorded in Romans 11:11ff. The Israel that put Jesus on the cross did not stumble so as to fall as you suggest. God has another role for her to play in the end and at that time, he will pour out his spirit on them and they will transformed in into the people of God in terms of their spirituality.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I agree with everything you said except your conclusion. I think that the church has taken the spirit/flesh dualism too far. Paul was talking about the "fleshy" nation in his argument recorded in Romans 11:11ff. The Israel that put Jesus on the cross did not stumble so as to fall as you suggest. God has another role for her to play in the end and at that time, he will pour out his spirit on them and they will transformed in into the people of God in terms of their spirituality.

Again we need to read the scripture you cited in context....from vs 3...Paul uses the example of Elijah who said....
“Jehovah, they have killed your prophets, they have dug up your altars, and I alone am left, and now they are trying to take my life.” 4 Yet, what does the divine pronouncement say to him? “I have left for myself 7,000 men who have not bent the knee to Baʹal.” 5 So in the same way, at the present time also, there is a remnant according to a choosing through undeserved kindness. 6 Now if it is by undeserved kindness, it is no longer through works; otherwise, the undeserved kindness would no longer be undeserved kindness”.....

Elijah thought that he alone was faithful to his God, but Jehovah knew that there were 7,000 among the multitude of the Jews who had “not bent the knee to Baal”....so there was a “remnant” who were still faithful among those who were not.
Vs 11-14 continues....
“11 So I ask, They did not stumble and fall completely, did they? Certainly not! But by their false step, there is salvation to people of the nations, to incite them to jealousy. 12 Now if their false step means riches to the world and their decrease means riches to people of the nations, how much more will their full number mean!

13 Now I speak to you who are people of the nations. Seeing that I am an apostle to the nations, I glorify my ministry 14 to see if I may in some way incite my own people to jealousy and save some from among them.”

So just as the whole nation back in Elijah’s day did not fall away completely with the offenders, a remnant remained faithful (albeit silently in their hearts) in spite of what the majority were doing.....so too, in the first century when Christ walked the earth, a remnant separated from the corrupted majority to become the “Israel of God” (Gal 6:16)....no longer were just fleshly Jews accepted as God’s people, but now also we see the fulfilment of the Abrahamic promise to include “all nations” in his blessing. (Gen 22:18)

God’s promise to Abraham was never just about the Israelites. And a remnant would certainly come out of that apostate nation, but never will fleshly Israel ever be God’s chosen nation again. In all their woeful history, they could never stay faithful to their God......as serial covenant breakers, God no longer has any obligation to them. A remnant of natural Jews came to Christ and had their sins forgiven....but as a nation Israel has never accepted Jesus as Messiah and in their pride, they never will. They remain unforgiven to this day because their temple was destroyed and they no longer had the means to offer to God their sacrifices.....so what makes us think that Israel will ever accept Jesus as their savior? Their pride won’t let them.

At Romans 9:27....Paul wrote....
“Moreover, Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Although the number of the sons of Israel may be as the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved.”

Isaiah had already prophesied it....so as much as people such as yourself want to believe it, the fleshly nation of Israel will never be part of God’s Kingdom on earth. They had their opportunity, but true to form, they blew it.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Elijah thought that he alone was faithful to his God, but Jehovah knew that there were 7,000 among the multitude of the Jews who had “not bent the knee to Baal”....so there was a “remnant” who were still faithful among those who were not.

The salient point here is God's choice. As Paul says, some were chosen while others were hardened. They didn't bend the knee to Baal because God had chosen them, saying "I have left for myself 7000 men" indicating that he chose them before they chose him.

So just as the whole nation back in Elijah’s day did not fall away completely with the offenders, a remnant remained faithful (albeit silently in their hearts) in spite of what the majority were doing.....so too, in the first century when Christ walked the earth, a remnant separated from the corrupted majority to become the “Israel of God” (Gal 6:16)....no longer were just fleshly Jews accepted as God’s people, but now also we see the fulfilment of the Abrahamic promise to include “all nations” in his blessing. (Gen 22:18)

All true, but the topic of Romans 9-11 is not the Abrahamic Covenant. Paul is talking about another covenant God made with "my kinsmen according to the flesh."

Isaiah had already prophesied it....so as much as people such as yourself want to believe it, the fleshly nation of Israel will never be part of God’s Kingdom on earth. They had their opportunity, but true to form, they blew it.

I wouldn't put it that way because it inadvertently discards Paul's position concerning his nation. The nation that exists today is no different than the nation that existed in Elijah's time. As you rightfully pointed out, during Elijah's time the nation was disobedient, even as God kept for himself 7,000 men who didn't bow the knee to Baal. I suspect that the same is true of Israel today. Some of her citizens fear God, while others are arrogant evil doers. It is neither fair nor helpful to classify her as "the fleshly nation of Israel."

Just to clarify, I would like to mention the rhetorical structure of Paul's argument that starts in Chapter 6 of his epistle. In the latter half of the book, Paul forms a series of questions to build his argument. In Chapter 11, he asks at least two questions. Firstly, he enquires about his people as a whole and secondly, he asks about his nation as a whole.

His people as a whole:
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be!

Conclusion:​

What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened . . .​

His nation as a whole:
I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be!

Conclusion:​

For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?​

To fully comprehend the arguments presented, one must keep in mind the introduction by Paul and recall his starting point. In Romans 9:1, he lays the foundation of his argument with some premises that both his readers and opponents would agree upon without the need for justification or evidence. In his introduction, he reminds readers of God's promise to his kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, and to whom belongs the adoption as sons and the glory. He immediately suggests that the "word of God" has not failed, referring to God's promise that Israel would be adopted as sons and receive glory.

In his argument, he ends with two rhetorical questions as mentioned earlier. He talks about how certain individuals were chosen while others were hardened, referring to the people. (He believes that this partial hardening will continue until the full number of chosen Gentiles are included among God's people.) He also refers to the fact that the Nation and her leaders acting as their legal representatives, killed the messiah and put him on the cross. And Paul asks whether or not, that major act of rebellion became the basis of her ultimate destruction. The idiom "stumble so as to fall" refers to a fatal accident resulting in death. Did Israel, the nation, deserve genocide as punishment for killing the messiah? Maybe, but according to Paul, her stumble did not result in her ultimate destruction.

 

[TheRootOfDavid]

Immanuel,Jesus,was the Father.

Immanuel,Jesus,was the Father Of whom?

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

Immanuel,Jesus,was the Father Of whom?

Ohhhhhh, good. A new one.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Ohhhhhh, good. A new one.

Yep, that kind. I've already covered him up invisible.

 

[TheRootOfDavid]

Ohhhhhh, good. A new one.

Just pointing out the errors in your doctrine.
You should be thanking me.

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

Just pointing out the errors in your doctrine.

By proving you know nothing about Christianity.

You should be thanking me.

Thank you.By saying that you just told us what other account you have here.

 

[TheRootOfDavid]

By proving you know nothing about Christianity.

Thank you.By saying that you just told us what other account you have here.

You should depart from your own understanding, as it is written.
It will serve you well.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The salient point here is God's choice. As Paul says, some were chosen while others were hardened. They didn't bend the knee to Baal because God had chosen them, saying "I have left for myself 7000 men" indicating that he chose them before they chose him.

What was the basis for his ‘choosing’ those ones who ‘did not bend the knee to Baal’? Wasn’t it because of their own free will, that they refused in their hearts to worship a false god? God forces no one to worship him….the Israelites agreed to their covenant with God to strictly obey him…..but they never could. Covenants are legal agreements, with terms agreed to by all parties….when someone breaks the covenant by failing to abide by the terms, the agreement is broken unless the innocent party agrees to keep it in force.
God does not interfere with our free will, nor does he override it….worshipping Jehovah is a choice. If it wasn’t a choice, then Israel would never have considered violating the First Commandment in sacrificing to false gods.

All true, but the topic of Romans 9-11 is not the Abrahamic Covenant. Paul is talking about another covenant God made with "my kinsmen according to the flesh."

Reading in context, Paul is lamenting the fact that Israel failed to take their place in the Kingdom due to their own disobedience. They had the right by covenant arrangement with the God they vowed to serve and obey, but by their disobedience they broke that covenant and the others as well….but God never did. He stuck with that wayward and disobedient nation until his purpose in connection with them was finished.

At Rom 11:2-5…. Paul said…
”I have great grief and unceasing pain in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were separated from the Christ as the cursed one for the sake of my brothers, my relatives according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites. To them belong the adoption as sons and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the sacred service and the promises. 5 To them the forefathers belong, and from them the Christ descended according to the flesh.”

Israel was all set up to inherit the kingdom and its blessings….but they forsook it all to do what they wanted to do….only a remnant of fleshly Israel inherited the promises….they were given first option because Jesus was sent only to Israel…..yet it was to “the lost sheep” that he was sent, because God knew that their leaders were incorrigible. Jesus had already condemned them to “Gehenna”. (Matt 23:33)

I wouldn't put it that way because it inadvertently discards Paul's position concerning his nation. The nation that exists today is no different than the nation that existed in Elijah's time. As you rightfully pointed out, during Elijah's time the nation was disobedient, even as God kept for himself 7,000 men who didn't bow the knee to Baal. I suspect that the same is true of Israel today. Some of her citizens fear God, while others are arrogant evil doers. It is neither fair nor helpful to classify her as "the fleshly nation of Israel."

“As a nation” the Jews were cast off because “as a nation” they rejected their Messiah and virtually slapped Jehovah in the face by having him executed in the cruelest manner…..by Jesus’ description in Matt 23, God was already sharpening the ax that John the Baptist spoke about. (Matt 3:7-10)

When Jesus was brought out to the crowd by Pilate, who found no guilt in him deserving of death, and wanting to free him….Matt 25:24-26… says…..
“Seeing that it did no good but, rather, an uproar was arising, Pilate took water and washed his hands before the crowd, saying: “I am innocent of the blood of this man. You yourselves must see to it.” 25 At that all the people said in answer: “Let his blood come upon us and upon our children.” 26 Then he released Bar·abʹbas to them, but he had Jesus whipped and handed him over to be executed…”
The Jews collectively cursed themselves with the blood of Christ, when he was to shed his blood to save them……how do you think God felt about that?

Just to clarify, I would like to mention the rhetorical structure of Paul's argument that starts in Chapter 6 of his epistle. In the latter half of the book, Paul forms a series of questions to build his argument. In Chapter 11, he asks at least two questions. Firstly, he enquires about his people as a whole and secondly, he asks about his nation as a whole.

His people as a whole:
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be!

Conclusion:​

What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened . . .​

It was prophesided that only a “remnant” would be saved…and only a remnant responded to Christ’s ministry. ‘The stone that the builders rejected, became the chief cornerstone’ of God’s kingdom.
The 12 apostles became the foundations of the heavenly kingdom. (Rev 21:12-14)
What God rejected was those people who, because of their spiritual blindness, rejected Gods means of salvation.…so as a whole collective, those who rejected Jesus were rejected by God.

His nation as a whole:
I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be!

Conclusion:​

For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?​

To fully comprehend the arguments presented, one must keep in mind the introduction by Paul and recall his starting point. In Romans 9:1, he lays the foundation of his argument with some premises that both his readers and opponents would agree upon without the need for justification or evidence. In his introduction, he reminds readers of God's promise to his kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, and to whom belongs the adoption as sons and the glory. He immediately suggests that the "word of God" has not failed, referring to God's promise that Israel would be adopted as sons and receive glory.

The words of God can never fail…but because Israel as a nation failed God, that did not mean that God rejected the ones who separated from that apostate system to accept Jesus Christ as Messiah. Being Jewish by no means eliminated them from acceptance…..”the Israel of God” was a new nation of spiritual Israel, made up of both Jewish and Gentile Christians. Being a “son of Abraham“ meant nothing if they failed to obey their Sovereign Ruler and lawgiver. Paul was the one who identified “the Israel of God”…..spiritual Israel.

Did Israel, the nation, deserve genocide as punishment for killing the messiah? Maybe, but according to Paul, her stumble did not result in her ultimate destruction.

The people of Israel had choices as free willed individuals…..those who accepted Jesus, became part of God’s new nation of worshippers bringing all into harmony of belief and purpose.….one truth for all. (1 Cor 1:10)
If Jesus sentenced the Jewish leaders to Gehenna, then there is no salvation for them….and no salvation for those who have stuck to the errors of their forefathers. Unless a person of any nation or former religious persuasion comes to accept the truth about God….about the nature of his son….and what God is about to do to alter the future for those who think he will not honor his word….. they will not survive the “end” that is coming. Those among the fleshly Jews who come to Christ will be saved because they have the blood of Christ to atone for them….those who do not, have the blood of Christ to condemn them.
Unless they accept Jesus of their own free will no salvation is possible.
That is the way I read it.

 

[CadyandZoe]

What was the basis for his ‘choosing’ those ones who ‘did not bend the knee to Baal’? Wasn’t it because of their own free will, that they refused in their hearts to worship a false god?

I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”

The word "keep" connotes two main ideas: "to continue to have in your possession, and 2) to make something happen or operate in the same way as before. In this context, God used his divine power and authority to cause 7,000 people to remain loyal to Himself. Did he violate their will? Did he force people to remain loyal against their will? No, not at all.

Rather, God doesn't force us to remain loyal. Instead, we already want to remain loyal but under pressure, oppression, and threats of torture or sanction, we often don't have the strength of will to remain loyal. So God helps us in our weakness to persevere under hardship. When it says that God kept 7,000 people from disloyalty, we assume that these 7000 people could become disloyal apart from divine intervention. God gets the credit because they all may have turned against him apart from his intervention.

Reading in context, Paul is lamenting the fact that Israel failed to take their place in the Kingdom due to their own disobedience.

I think upon further review, Paul was lamenting his kinsmen, not his nation. And that's the point. God made a promise to his kinsmen that belongs to them as a people, but not to every individual.

As a nation” the Jews were cast off because “as a nation” they rejected their Messiah and virtually slapped Jehovah in the face by having him executed in the cruelest manner…..by Jesus’ description in Matt 23, God was already sharpening the ax that John the Baptist spoke about. (Matt 3:7-10)

But don't you see, In Romans 11:11ff, Paul denies that Israel was cast off. They didn't fall to their destruction. Leadership was taken away from the Pharisees, and she entered exile again, but she was not cast off as you say.

It was prophesided that only a “remnant” would be saved…and only a remnant responded to Christ’s ministry.

Agreed, but the prophets were speaking about a remnant of Israel, not a remnant of humanity.

Unless they accept Jesus of their own free will no salvation is possible.

They will.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”

The word "keep" connotes two main ideas: "to continue to have in your possession, and 2) to make something happen or operate in the same way as before. In this context, God used his divine power and authority to cause 7,000 people to remain loyal to Himself. Did he violate their will? Did he force people to remain loyal against their will? No, not at all.

On what basis did God choose the 7,000 out of the multitude of that nation? Why those 7,000?
God is a reader of hearts, is he not? Only 7,000 had the right heart condition out of hundreds of thousands.

Rather, God doesn't force us to remain loyal. Instead, we already want to remain loyal but under pressure, oppression, and threats of torture or sanction, we often don't have the strength of will to remain loyal. So God helps us in our weakness to persevere under hardship. When it says that God kept 7,000 people from disloyalty, we assume that these 7000 people could become disloyal apart from divine intervention. God gets the credit because they all may have turned against him apart from his intervention.

For those who profess the faith and desire to please God in all things, the flesh is their enemy....and it is true that God can strengthen that weakness in us, and give us strength and courage, even in the face of death, as the martyrs have shown us. But unless we have the kind of heart and character that Jehovah is looking for in his worshippers, we give him nothing to work with.

Sadly, the majority who profess to be “Christians” are so in name only, and as long as it requires no hardship on their part they are happy to do their ‘duty’ and rock up to church once a week and then go home and resume their godless existence. We know that God requires so much more....Christ did not go through an awful death to placate lazy ones who really have no interest in suffering themselves for God. Love caused God to sacrifice something precious for us, so should we expect to give him less? What can we give to God that he cannot give to himself....? Our loyal love and obedience. Love is useless if it cannot be expressed towards others. God greatest gift to us was the life of his son.....and the promise of a better life to come, once he has dealt with the rebellion that got us into this mess.

I think upon further review, Paul was lamenting his kinsmen, not his nation. And that's the point. God made a promise to his kinsmen that belongs to them as a people, but not to every individual.

All Israel were his kinsmen. All were “sons of Abraham”......But was being a “son of Abraham” all that was required of God’s people who thought themselves somehow ‘charmed’ because of their lineage?

What did John the Baptist say to those proud Pharisees?....
“Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. 10 The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire.”

If the ax cuts down the tree that us unproductive, and it is thrown into the fire, what hope does it have of regrowth? Does God need to resurrect his disloyal nation out of the ashes? If so why destroy them?
“Israel” exists today, but not as a spiritual nation.....they are a blood spilling political nation (Isa 1:15) who have never known peace, as it was prophesied. They exist in the flesh but they still fail to worship their God the way he required them to. They have no Temple at which to offer their sacrifices and so there is no means to forgive them of their sins.....unless they accept Jesus as their Messiah, they remain dead to God in their sins...they have no redeemer because they rejected him.

So what did Paul mean when he said the following......? What then is a “Jew” to Jehovah?

Rom 2:29...”But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people.”

Rom 9:6...”However, it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who descend from Israel are really “Israel.”

Gal 3:29...”Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s offspring, heirs with reference to a promise.”

Does being born in that fleshly nation make a person holy to God? Isn’t it obvious that God put up with so much unfaithful and disobedient conduct from those who thought that being a son of Abraham had them covered somehow? Once he had produced his Messiah, his obligation to Israel in the flesh was finished....a new “Israel” was chosen to complete his purpose....those who came out of that nation to accept God’s precious gift....and were prepared to give God what he had given them...their full loyalty and dedication.

To whom was Paul speaking in his writings? Wasn’t it to the Christians who accepted Christ, and became part of the new “Israel of God”.....regardless of their nationality or former religion?

How do you read Romans 11:17-26....?
17 However, if some of the branches were broken off and you, although being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became a sharer of the richness of the olive’s root, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If, though, you are arrogant toward them, remember that you do not bear the root, but the root bears you. 19 You will say, then: “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true! For their lack of faith, they were broken off, but you are standing by faith. Do not be haughty, but be in fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Consider, therefore, God’s kindness and severity. There is severity toward those who fell, but toward you there is God’s kindness, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise, you too will be lopped off. 23 And they also, if they do not remain in their lack of faith, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them back in. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree that is wild by nature and were grafted contrary to nature into the garden olive tree, how much more will these who are natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree!

25 For I do not want you to be unaware of this sacred secret, brothers, so that you do not become wise in your own eyes: A partial dulling of senses has come upon Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, 26 and in this manner all Israel will be saved.”

The “Israel” who are saved are those who chose to separate themselves from that apostate nation, and become part of a faithful nation where God could graft them back in if they displayed a repentant heart and accepted his means of salvation. Those waiting for the whole fleshly nation to do that, will be waiting a very long time......it’s already been thousands of years! But individually, there is still time to rethink their position......yet time is fast running out. We all get one chance to get right with Jehovah....but he will not tell us what to believe...that is our choice.

This is how I understand what Paul is saying....it is also in harmony with what he said about ‘spiritual Israel’....What then is a “Jew” to Jehovah? What do those three scriptures quoted above, say?

 

[Gottservant]

In response to the OP:

Neither, John the Baptist baptized Him in fire, from the grave.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

The above post is outside of the truth of the word of God !

 

[CadyandZoe]

On what basis did God choose the 7,000 out of the multitude of that nation? Why those 7,000?
God is a reader of hearts, is he not? Only 7,000 had the right heart condition out of hundreds of thousands.

You have the wrong idea about God's choice, expecting that he sorted through all of Israel, choosing those who had the proper heart. God's choice isn't a matter of selection; it's a matter of creation.

For those who profess the faith and desire to please God in all things, the flesh is their enemy....and it is true that God can strengthen that weakness in us, and give us strength and courage, even in the face of death, as the martyrs have shown us. But unless we have the kind of heart and character that Jehovah is looking for in his worshippers, we give him nothing to work with.

God doesn't need anything to work with. He creates what he needs exnihilo -- out of nothing.

Sadly, the majority who profess to be “Christians” are so in name only, and as long as it requires no hardship on their part they are happy to do their ‘duty’ and rock up to church once a week and then go home and resume their godless existence. We know that God requires so much more....Christ did not go through an awful death to placate lazy ones who really have no interest in suffering themselves for God. Love caused God to sacrifice something precious for us, so should we expect to give him less? What can we give to God that he cannot give to himself....? Our loyal love and obedience. Love is useless if it cannot be expressed towards others. God greatest gift to us was the life of his son.....and the promise of a better life to come, once he has dealt with the rebellion that got us into this mess.

Agreed. Well said.

All Israel were his kinsmen. All were “sons of Abraham”......But was being a “son of Abraham” all that was required of God’s people who thought themselves somehow ‘charmed’ because of their lineage?

It is wrong for us human beings to act based on lineage. But it is not wrong of God to choose a family for his purposes. The blessing of Abraham was promised to Jacob's lineage, but as Paul argues, not everyone from the lineage will receive the blessing.

What did John the Baptist say to those proud Pharisees?....
“Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. 10 The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire.”

John was speaking truthfully when he said that God is able to raise up children of Abraham from the stones. (Though God can create children without the use of anything at all, including stones.) The point is, God is not selecting people based on inherent qualities. A stone has no attributes in common with Abraham. That's John's point.

If the ax cuts down the tree that us unproductive, and it is thrown into the fire, what hope does it have of regrowth? Does God need to resurrect his disloyal nation out of the ashes? If so why destroy them?
“Israel” exists today, but not as a spiritual nation.....they are a blood spilling political nation (Isa 1:15) who have never known peace, as it was prophesied. They exist in the flesh but they still fail to worship their God the way he required them to. They have no Temple at which to offer their sacrifices and so there is no means to forgive them of their sins.....unless they accept Jesus as their Messiah, they remain dead to God in their sins...they have no redeemer because they rejected him.

We differ on this point, I think. God isn't interested in animal sacrifices as such. He is interested in the attitude and the heart orientation behind the sacrifice -- i.e. "inwardness." Paul argues that if a person truly understood the meaning and significance behind the animal sacrifice, that person would accept Jesus Christ as their savior. (Galatians 3:24) And God is more interested in "inwardness" than sacrifices. (Psalm 51:16-17)

I don't look at the nation as it exists today. I look at the nation that it will become soon. I am confident that in the final scene, Israel will accept Jesus as her messiah. But not yet.

So what did Paul mean when he said the following......? What then is a “Jew” to Jehovah?

Rom 2:29...”But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people.”

Rom 9:6...”However, it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who descend from Israel are really “Israel.”

Gal 3:29...”Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s offspring, heirs with reference to a promise.”

Does being born in that fleshly nation make a person holy to God?

Yes. If God declares his people to be "holy" they are holy.

Isn’t it obvious that God put up with so much unfaithful and disobedient conduct from those who thought that being a son of Abraham had them covered somehow? Once he had produced his Messiah, his obligation to Israel in the flesh was finished....a new “Israel” was chosen to complete his purpose....those who came out of that nation to accept God’s precious gift....and were prepared to give God what he had given them...their full loyalty and dedication.

We differ on this point also. Paul argued that God did NOT choose a new nation "Israel" as you suggest. Rather, as the prophets say, the current Israel will divide into two groups: 1) those who fear God, and 2) those who are arrogantly evil. During that time, the second group will be burned up with fire, leaving the first group. (Malachi 4)

To whom was Paul speaking in his writings? Wasn’t it to the Christians who accepted Christ, and became part of the new “Israel of God”.....regardless of their nationality or former religion?

NO, I don't think so. Paul never referred to the body of Christ as "Israel." Rather, Paul used another term, which isn't as easy to recognize in translation: pleroma. (pronounced play-row-ma) In Christian theology, the pleroma is the totality or fullness of the Godhead which dwells in Christ. (I agree that Jesus is fully God. But I take issue with theologians who mistakenly believe that Paul uses pleroma to indicate that.)

In my view, theologians have misunderstood how Paul uses the term. He employs the term "pleroma" to indicate the totality of the ekklesia -- the church, -- the body of Christ. Paul doesn't refer to us as "Israel" he refers to us as "the Pleroma" ie. The Fulness.) According to Paul, God has been orchestrating history to bring all kinds of people, both Jew and Gentile under Christ. (Ephesians 1:9-14) And the entire group of people who feared God and were part of God's household is called "The Pleroma" or in English "The fulness."

How do you read Romans 11:17-26....?

The Tree is not Israel as some suppose. The Tree is the blessing of Abraham, which eternal life. The Israelites were "natural" branches, because the blessing of Abraham was promised to them as a people. Some of the Gentiles where grafted onto the blessing of Abraham.

Most people seem to understand Romans 11:22-24 as a conditional promise. I understand that passage as a prediction of a future event. Israel (not Jewish people) was cut off. And the Gentiles were grafted on. In the future, as Paul suggests, Israel will be grafted back once the Gentiles lose faith and are removed.

The “Israel” who are saved are those who chose to separate themselves from that apostate nation, and become part of a faithful nation where God could graft them back in if they displayed a repentant heart and accepted his means of salvation.

I agree. Based on the prophetic word, I see a moment in the future, when the nation will divide itself. On one side of the line there will be those who "fear the Lord" and on the other side of the line there will be "arrogant and evil people." (Malachi 4) Those who fear the Lord will hear the call to assemble in Jerusalem. Those who stay behind will be incinerated. Isaiah refers to the first group as "survivors." (Isaiah 4)

 

[Taken]

Did Jesus raise hisself from the dead or did God the father raise him

Resurrections of Dead bodies are accomplished;
By………..Through……Of
Lord …...God …………Almighty
Son……..Father……….Power
Word…..Authority……Christ
Jesus…..Yahweh……..Spirit

Lord God Almighty…
His Authority has established raising dead bodies.
His Word calls.
His Power raises.

The answer is the WHOLE of the Lord God Almighty raises Dead Bodies.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Aunty Jane]

You have the wrong idea about God's choice, expecting that he sorted through all of Israel, choosing those who had the proper heart. God's choice isn't a matter of selection; it's a matter of creation.

There is a lot to address here so I will break it up…..

Do you believe that God does not search the hearts of individuals to find those deserving of his blessings?
“Out of the heart’s abundance his mouth speaks”.
Luke 6:43-49….
“For no fine tree produces rotten fruit, and no rotten tree produces fine fruit. 44 For each tree is known by its own fruit. For example, people do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they cut grapes off a thornbush. 45 A good man brings good out of the good treasure of his heart, but a wicked man brings what is wicked out of his wicked treasure; for out of the heart’s abundance his mouth speaks.”

Doesn’t this tell us that the heart dictates our words and actions? God reads hearts as easily as we read words. We tell God who we are every day, without saying a word.

Jesus went on to say….
46 “Why, then, do you call me ‘Lord! Lord!’ but do not do the things I say? 47 Everyone who comes to me and hears my words and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 He is like a man who in building a house dug and went down deep and laid a foundation on the rock. Consequently, when a flood came, the river dashed against that house but was not strong enough to shake it, for it was well-built. 49 On the other hand, whoever hears and does nothing is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The river dashed against it, and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great.”

We individually build our own “house” of faith by listening to Jesus and doing as he tells us…..by doing so we will have the best foundations on which to build our faith…..I do not believe that Christendom has good foundations, and therefore her doctrines are due to lead to a complete collapse, because it will mean trying to whether a storm that she is not equipped to handle. The storm that is coming is God’s day of judgment….and it starts with “the house of God”. (1 Peter 4:17-18) False religion is the first to go.

God doesn't need anything to work with. He creates what he needs exnihilo -- out of nothing.

He is done with actual creating as it says in Genesis 2:1-3 …..but that doesn’t mean that he is done with his creation……he has continued to work, as this 7th day continues, (there is no indication in Genesis that the 7th day has ended because there is no declaration indicating God’s satisfaction with its completion)

So as the results of man’s rebellion escalate, God is separating mankind into two categories, so that when that day of accounting comes, there will be a clear line of demarcation.

2 Thess 1:6-8…
”This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you. 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus.”

There will just be two categories of people then….those who “do not know God” because they don’t want to….and those who know about Jesus but “do not obey” his teachings.…the ones who are just going through the motions….not really committed to the truth of God’s word.….these are the “weeds” of Jesus‘ parable, who practice a very fractured imitation of the real ”Christianity” that Jesus and his apostles promoted.

Jehovah created all things in six extensive periods of time, he called “days”…but it is obvious that they were not 24 hour periods. The word “day” in Hebrew has several meanings….one is “an extended period of time”. Since Jehovah is a Creator, not a magician, that allows for all the thousands or even millions of years that science tells us about the age of the earth and what has lived on it in times past. Dinosaurs for example, never lived in the same time period as humans.

The 7th day was set aside to allow his human creation to settle in and to be educated about the assignment that he had given them….to become caretakers of this beautiful Earth and to fill the world with their “kind”.
Free will was a precious gift but it came with restrictions, meaning that it could not be used selfishly or to harm or control others. When it was abused, first by a rebel angel, and he tempted the woman to disobey her Sovereign and to steal something that God had claimed as his own property, a serious penalty applied.
Christ came to remove the sin now inherent in the human race…..and it’s penalty, death.

 

[Aunty Jane]

John was speaking truthfully when he said that God is able to raise up children of Abraham from the stones. (Though God can create children without the use of anything at all, including stones.) The point is, God is not selecting people based on inherent qualities. A stone has no attributes in common with Abraham. That's John's point.

That is one way to read it, but IMO that does not fit in with what the scriptures say about those who must serve God with their whole hearts, soul and mind…..this was part of the “two greatest Commandments in the Law”, as outlined by Jesus himself. (Matt 22:36-40) One is not acceptable to God merely by being born into a certain lineage…..if our hearts are not 100% with God, we have no place in his kingdom.

We differ on this point, I think. God isn't interested in animal sacrifices as such. He is interested in the attitude and the heart orientation behind the sacrifice -- i.e. "inwardness." Paul argues that if a person truly understood the meaning and significance behind the animal sacrifice, that person would accept Jesus Christ as their savior. (Galatians 3:24) And God is more interested in "inwardness" than sacrifices. (Psalm 51:16-17)

Indeed…it was never the sacrifices themselves that God wanted….it was the attitude with which they were made that was important…..God was reading hearts with every sacrifice offered…..it had to be the very best a person could offer, but selfishness would often tempt a man to offer an unsound or sick animal, which was no sacrifice at all. So yes, it was the “inwardness” that was always the primary motive in any offering made to God.
Blood sacrifices were a constant reminder that a life was being sacrificed for their sins, and if it was the best quality animal in their possession, it would have caused them grief if they did not have the right heart attitude. That God deserved it more than they did.

I don't look at the nation as it exists today. I look at the nation that it will become soon. I am confident that in the final scene, Israel will accept Jesus as her messiah. But not yet.

I have no such hope for fleshly Israel….individuals from natural Israel will come to Christ no doubt, as time allows…..but God will not redeem those who shun his only means of salvation. The “remnant” of that nation will be all that natural Israel will provide, just as it was prophesied.

Yes. If God declares his people to be "holy" they are holy.

How can God declare any nation with blood on their hands to be innocent before him? He does not hear their prayers. (Isa 1:15) There is nothing ”holy” about them…..it was their forefather Abraham who was holy to God…..his progeny did not follow in his footsteps, but nonetheless, they provided a stunning example of how NOT to serve Jehovah.

We differ on this point also. Paul argued that God did NOT choose a new nation "Israel" as you suggest. Rather, as the prophets say, the current Israel will divide into two groups: 1) those who fear God, and 2) those who are arrogantly evil. During that time, the second group will be burned up with fire, leaving the first group. (Malachi 4)

It was already divided in the first century. Those who came to Christ were the first to inherit the blessings of the kingdom, but those who remained with the disobedient and “stiff necked” religious leaders, would never find a place unless they abandoned that corrupt nation and took up a place reserved for ‘the chosen ones” in God’s heavenly kingdom. (Rev 20:6) The "Israel of God" are the chosen ones.

Paul never referred to the body of Christ as "Israel." Rather, Paul used another term, which isn't as easy to recognize in translation: pleroma. (pronounced play-row-ma) In Christian theology, the pleroma is the totality or fullness of the Godhead which dwells in Christ. (I agree that Jesus is fully God. But I take issue with theologians who mistakenly believe that Paul uses pleroma to indicate that.)

I disagree that “Jesus is fully God” because the nation of Israel were never taught about such a god. Jesus was Jewish and taught from Jewish scripture…he never once claimed to be “Almighty God”. In fact, the notion of a “godhead” was absent from the Christian scriptures until “the church” introduced the notion. It was not made official, “church doctrine” until the 4th century……so unless I can see a clear statement from either God or his Christ that they are one and the same god along with the holy spirit, I will reject such a notion as coming from the “weeds” Jesus warned about.....such an important doctrine should not be declared with no stated declaration from either God or Jesus.

 

[Aunty Jane]

In my view, theologians have misunderstood how Paul uses the term. He employs the term "pleroma" to indicate the totality of the ekklesia -- the church, -- the body of Christ. Paul doesn't refer to us as "Israel" he refers to us as "the Pleroma" ie. The Fulness.) According to Paul, God has been orchestrating history to bring all kinds of people, both Jew and Gentile under Christ. (Ephesians 1:9-14) And the entire group of people who feared God and were part of God's household is called "The Pleroma" or in English "The fulness."

Not quite sure I catch your drift there.....

The Tree is not Israel as some suppose. The Tree is the blessing of Abraham, which eternal life. The Israelites were "natural" branches, because the blessing of Abraham was promised to them as a people. Some of the Gentiles where grafted onto the blessing of Abraham.

Sorry, but I beg to differ again…..since the promise made to Abraham was NOT just for the Jews, but for people of “all the nations” to obtain a blessing through the seed that was to come through his lineage, (as either one of its rulers or one of its subjects) it is God who determines who gets a pass into the Kingdom and what role they will play…..The Kingdom is a heavenly "government" on the shoulders of "the Prince of Peace", (Isaiah 9:6) and God made a promise that "IF" they obeyed him, that they would become a kingdom of priests in that government, but Israel could not fill the whole number from the remnant who responded to the teachings of Jesus. Gentiles were then recruited to fill the vacancies as it were. So,.....you can call yourself whatever you wish, but “Jehovah knows those who belong to him.“ (2 Tim 2:19; Numbers 16:5; 1. Cor 8:3)

Most people seem to understand Romans 11:22-24 as a conditional promise. I understand that passage as a prediction of a future event. Israel (not Jewish people) was cut off. And the Gentiles were grafted on. In the future, as Paul suggests, Israel will be grafted back once the Gentiles lose faith and are removed.

But why were the Gentiles grafted in in the first place? Israel alone was promised to become God’s special people….

Moses was instructed to tell the Israelites…..
“You have seen for yourselves what I did to the Egyptians, in order to carry you on wings of eagles and bring you to myself. 5 Now if you will strictly obey my voice and keep my covenant, you will certainly become my special property out of all peoples, for the whole earth belongs to me. 6 You will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you are to say to the Israelites.” (Exodus 19:4-6)

The promise was conditional…..God said…”IF you will strictly obey my voice and keep my covenant, you will certainly become my special property out of all peoples”…..that little word “IF”…..meant that “IF” they failed to obey their God, his promise to them was null and void. That was the reason for the Gentiles being grafted in, in their place.

Based on the prophetic word, I see a moment in the future, when the nation will divide itself. On one side of the line there will be those who "fear the Lord" and on the other side of the line there will be "arrogant and evil people." (Malachi 4) Those who fear the Lord will hear the call to assemble in Jerusalem. Those who stay behind will be incinerated. Isaiah refers to the first group as "survivors." (Isaiah 4)

There is room still for those who want to accept Jesus as Messiah to come in now, before the judgment, but too late once the end has come and overtaken them.
We have the example in the time of Noah, where Jesus used this as an example of what was to come when Christ was to return….

”For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.”

Noah preached to the people all the time he was preparing God’s means of salvation for the only people alive at the time who were faithful to their God. The people got a thorough witness concerning God’s intentions, but Noah was met with disbelief, ridicule and derision…..what do we imagine those people were thinking when the water started to swirl around their knees and escape from the waters was nowhere to be found as they finally rose higher than the highest mountain……not a soul survived that period of judgment besides the one who obeyed God’s instructions to the letter.

If this is the example Jesus used, then what are we to take from it? No faith and obedience….means no salvation!