Can a Believer Loose Their Salvation?

[JBO]

This is something I have wondered about.
Was there any kind of death in the Garden (orchard) of Eden before the Fall?

Of course there was death of all biologicals was/is an integral part of creation

 

[rwb]

This is something I have wondered about.
Was there any kind of death in the Garden (orchard) of Eden before the Fall?

Was was to tend in the garden with no death? No dead leaves or branches to remove?
No decaying leaves to fertilize the ground?

/

Why do you assume that dying vegetation is not naturally part of their cycle of life?

 

[St. SteVen]

Of course there was death of all biologicals was/is an integral part of salvation.

Before, or after the Fall. That is my question.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

Why do you assume that dying vegetation is not naturally part of their cycle of life?

I do.
But what was the extent of death as a result of the Fall.
And if there was no death before the Fall, how would Adam understand
the consequences of eating of the forbidden fruit? Surely die? ???

/

 

[JBO]

Before, or after the Fall. That is my question.

/

I screwed up the post #261. I meant to say "Of course there was death of all biologicals was/is an integral part of creation." I have corrected it.

 

[St. SteVen]

I screwed up the post #261. I meant to say "Of course there was death of all biologicals was/is an integral part of creation." I have corrected it.

Thanks.
So, it seems that death was already a part of life. And E&E were not immortal prior to the Fall.
God removed the Tree of Life to prevent that after the Fall.
So the death they died that day they ate thereof was spiritual, not physical. IMO

/

 

[rwb]

I do.
But what was the extent of death as a result of the Fall.
And if there was no death before the Fall, how would Adam understand
the consequences of eating of the forbidden fruit? Surely die? ???

/

I doubt that Adam did understand death! The dying of vegetation would not have taught man what dying of humankind meant. The death of vegetation shows that the seed must die to reproduce life. Perhaps it was in knowing that death was part of the cycle of life for vegetation, then death of humans might be the same???

 

[Wick Stick]

Can a Person Lose Their Salvation?

The question is a little strange. It hints that the person asking it doesn't correctly understand the words they're using.

Salvation is a state-of-being that a person enters when they order their actions according to faith. You can't misplace salvation or even throw it away, because it isn't an item such that it can be lost.

Can a person leave the state of safety that comes from acting in faith, and wander off into dangerous territory? Yes.

Is that the unpardonable sin? The unpardonable sin is blaspheming the Spirit. In modern language that means that the person decides that they disagree with God, that they know better than God, and choose to order their actions according to their own mind, instead of in agreement with God. If/when that happens, that person will necessarily leave their salvation.

But there is also the case where a believer sins out of weakness, and not because of unbelief. That is to say, they still agree that God knows best and recognize their actions as wrong, but... they sin anyway because they give in to the enticements of their flesh. This isn't the unpardonable sin, but it does take them off the safe path, at least temporarily.

 

[JBO]

The question is a little strange. It hints that the person asking it doesn't correctly understand the words they're using.

Salvation is a state-of-being that a person enters when they order their actions according to faith. You can't misplace salvation or even throw it away, because it isn't an item such that it can be lost.

Can a person leave the state of safety that comes from acting in faith, and wander off into dangerous territory? Yes.

I agree with most of that. Salvation, like being forgiven, is a state of being.

Is that the unpardonable sin? The unpardonable sin is blaspheming the Spirit. In modern language that means that the person decides that they disagree with God, that they know better than God, and choose to order their actions according to their own mind, instead of in agreement with God. If/when that happens, that person will necessarily leave their salvation.

The unpardonable sin, I believe, is doing evil and claiming it is being done in God's name, i.e., by the direction of the Holy Spirit. I think much of the evils of Islam fall into that category. For what it is worth, I think that is the same thing as the fourth of the ten commandments which says to not take (or carry) the name of God in vain. I don't think that has anything to do with cursing or such. Rather it is doing evil and claiming it is being done in God's name. (Note that is the only one of the ten commandments for which there is a punishment assigned.)

But there is also the case where a believer sins out of weakness, and not because of unbelief. That is to say, they still agree that God knows best and recognize their actions as wrong, but... they sin anyway because they give in to the enticements of their flesh. This isn't the unpardonable sin, but it does take them off the safe path, at least temporarily.

Losing salvation or wandering off into dangerous territory does not happen because of any sin or sins. It happens when one no longer has the faith through which salvation was obtained in the first place. Such faith is not something that one has today and gives it up tomorrow; rather it is a commitment in life that is not readily or easily changed.

 

[CadyandZoe]

How can I know that I will be saved?

How Can I Know That I Will Be Saved?

In this talk, we examine how the Bible answers the question of how a person can know whether he is saved.

rumble.com

 

[JBO]

How can I know that I will be saved?

How Can I Know That I Will Be Saved?

In this talk, we examine how the Bible answers the question of how a person can know whether he is saved.

rumble.com

Another seriously wrong message about election. Your view of God makes Him a really terrible ogre who has created most of mankind for the simple purpose of eternal condemnation. It is a most abominable and hateful description of God and is likely at the heart of all that is wrong with the Calvinist/Reformed Theology.

 

[St. SteVen]

The unpardonable sin, I believe, is doing evil and claiming it is being done in God's name, i.e., by the direction of the Holy Spirit.

Personally... I think it is the opposite. Here's why.
The context shows the teachers of the law were claiming Jesus was casting out demons by Beelzebub. (Satan)
Thus contributing the work of God (the Holy Spirit) to Satan.

Mark 3:22 NIV
And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said,
“He is possessed by Beelzebul! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.”

Mark 3:28-30 NIV
Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter,
29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”
30 He said this because they were saying, “He has an impure spirit.”

/ cc: @CadyandZoe

 

[Taken]

Can a Believer Loose Their Salvation?

ABSOLUTELY….

Salvation IS a GIFT God Paid FOR and OFFERED FOR ALL TO TAKE.

Not a mystery…Don’t TAKE the Offered Gift….DUH…you LOSE having that Gift.

 

[St. SteVen]

Can a Believer Loose Their Salvation?

ABSOLUTELY….

Salvation IS a GIFT God Paid FOR and OFFERED FOR ALL TO TAKE.

Not a mystery…Don’t TAKE the Offered Gift….DUH…you LOSE having that Gift.

Can you see the obvious contradiction in your post?

/

 

[CadyandZoe]

Another seriously wrong message about election. Your view of God makes Him a really terrible ogre who has created most of mankind for the simple purpose of eternal condemnation. It is a most abominable and hateful description of God and is likely at the heart of all that is wrong with the Calvinist/Reformed Theology.

So, what you are saying is this. Would you otherwise affirm the doctrine of God's sovereignty if it wasn't for the fact that it made God seem like an ogre? Okay, if one could convince you that God's sovereignty didn't make God out to be an ogre, would you accept it then? Are you having an emotional reaction or a theological reaction to the concept?

Also, I'd like to know if your negative reaction to the video's opening caused you to miss the essential point. Most people don't care about dry, theological concepts such as the topic of this thread. Only people like us are interested in this topic. :) And so we argue about it all day long. But most Christians could give a flying fig about it.

Most Christians wonder if they can personally have assurance of salvation. Yes, Jesus saves sinners, but am I one of those whom he will save? Our personal survival is what truly captures our attention, as opposed to academic questions, although they may be somewhat interesting.

Can a believer lose his or her salvation? Maybe. But what about me, will I lose my salvation? That's an entirely different question. The answer is, who do you trust and why?

 

[Hobie]

Nice speech, but one can... loose their Salvation via sin. It's what Lord Jesus called the unpardonable sin. Only a believer can commit it, which is what Paul was pointing to in Hebrews 6, because only a believer would experience the powers of the world to come by The Holy Spirit, unless... one believes pagan spiritism is equal to the Holy Spirit, which it of course is not.

It can happen to anyone, who fight against the Holy Spirit in a determined resistance of truth and evidence, and claim it is the devils work, and we see some where going there....

Luke 11:15
But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils.

 

[JBO]

So, what you are saying is this. Would you otherwise affirm the doctrine of God's sovereignty if it wasn't for the fact that it made God seem like an ogre? Okay, if one could convince you that God's sovereignty didn't make God out to be an ogre, would you accept it then? Are you having an emotional reaction or a theological reaction to the concept?

I have no need to be convinced that God's sovereignty doesn't make God out to be an ogre. It doesn't. The problem is not God's sovereignty; rather it is your lack of understanding about God's sovereignty, or rather your misunderstanding. That misunderstanding causes you to also have a misunderstanding of God's election.

Also, I'd like to know if your negative reaction to the video's opening caused you to miss the essential point. Most people don't care about dry, theological concepts such as the topic of this thread. Only people like us are interested in this topic. :) And so we argue about it all day long. But most Christians could give a flying fig about it.

The topic of this thread, "Can a Believer Lose Their Salvation", and the assurance of salvation are really two different though related topics.

Most Christians wonder if they can personally have assurance of salvation. Yes, Jesus saves sinners, but am I one of those whom he will save? Our personal survival is what truly captures our attention, as opposed to academic questions, although they may be somewhat interesting.

Strangely enough, your particular view on election actually makes assurance of salvation impossible. If indeed God's choice (election) of the saved is, as you would proclaim, based not on their personal character or merit, but out of his kindness and sovereign will, then there is no such personal character or merit that would indicate that choice (election) as you tried to show in your video. The reason is that if assurance of election is indicated by some personal character or merit as you suggested, there must be some line of demarcation in the actual amount or level of that personal character or merit that is required. Given that such a level is never given in God's word, you can never be certain what that level is for that assurance. That such a level is never given means that such a level doesn't exist. And that is because salvation is not determined by any personal character or merit. It is by grace through faith. Grace is God's part; faith is our part.

Peter declares that in 1 Peter 1:3-5 where he says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. "

What does Peter say there how we are being guarded by God's power? He says it is through faith. It is through faith that we are saved and it is through faith that we have assurance.

And in the first two verses of that chapter, Peter says, in contradiction to your view, that election is according to the foreknowledge of God, the Father.

 

[rwb]

Can a Believer Loose Their Salvation?

ABSOLUTELY….

Salvation IS a GIFT God Paid FOR and OFFERED FOR ALL TO TAKE.

Not a mystery…Don’t TAKE the Offered Gift….DUH…you LOSE having that Gift.

What I believe the Scriptures tell us is that the message (Gospel) about Christ is freely OFFERED to ALL of humanity. Then through the Gospel proclaimed unto all people, the gift (salvation) of eternal life is GIVEN to whosoever believes through the power of the Holy Spirit. In this the problem of contradiction into the Word of God is eliminated.

 

[Hobie]

A believer can lose salvation.

Glory to God?

That sounds odd..I know its your signature, but they do nit mix.

Thats why we are warned...
1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It can happen to anyone, who fight against the Holy Spirit in a determined resistance of truth and evidence, and claim it is the devils work, and we see some where going there....

Luke 11:15
But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils.

The point was they attributed the work of the HS to satan, Ie they called the HS a liar. And rejected his work.

This is what a non believer does when they reject the gospel. Or a make believer does when he changes the gospel to make another gospel.