OSAS being False Doctrine!

[Eternally Grateful]

I think it may be a good idea at this point to interject Apostle Paul's epistle (letter) to the Roman churches.
As an aside, I think these two verses also definitively decide the argument against eternal salvation. Or, OSAS,as some call it.

Romans 11
So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Amen

Grace and works can not mix, its like mixing oil and water.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I think he did. John 3:5 refers to amniotic fluid, the water of life.

Amen, born again, a second time

water spirit

flesh spirit

water - flesh = physical birth or first birth

spirit = spiritual birth Or second birth, hence born again

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

Amen, born again, a second time

water spirit

flesh spirit

water - flesh = physical birth or first birth

spirit = spiritual birth Or second birth, hence born again

I agree.

The water in John 3:5

 

[Taken]

OSAS being False Doctrine!
^ THREAD TITLE ^

FALSE CLAIM ~

The Lord God Almighty has Provided a Way and Offered ManKIND Eternal Life With Him.

Any individual who HAS, according to Gods Way, TAKEN Gods Offering, IS from that moment,
FOR EVER with God, and FOR EVER God with that individual.

“According to Gods WAY” is a glaring stumbling block, by, through, of, ignorant men whose ignorance turns to arrogance in * attempting to make God a Liar,
and
* attempting to make men who HAVE accepted Gods Offering, via Gods Way, also a Liar.

Not a Secret:
The SANCTIFI-ED, will continuously have tempters hot on their heals, hating, accusing, scorning, ridiculing, demanding proof a Sanctifi-ED individual is NEVER in Jeopardy of having their Sanctification revoked.

Matters Not:
The TEMPTER, can be told, given, shown Gods Word, given Examples, parallels, step by step of Gods Way….and still NOT GET IT.

FACTS are:
*God IS NOT a LIAR.
*God HAS Offered all men a GIFT, He PAID for.
*Gods Offering HAS Conditions.
*Any individual TAKING Gods Offered Gift, According to Gods Conditions (WAY),
Has TAKEN Gods Gift ONCE, and FOR EVER Gods GIFT remains WITH that individual.

** To those who ARE SANCTIFIED…
** REMEMBER the WARNINGS;

** Tempters come in all favors…
Non Sanctified Believers, unbelievers, haters of God, young, old, male, female, any race, any geographical location, within families, neighbors, communities, in social medias in evil spirits, in wicked men who sit in governing power seats, in wicked men who sit in power seats of man-made church buildings…
Tempters ARE a Global faction.

** The WARNING is simply a NOTICE…
Don’t be shocked…those who ARE NOT SANCTIFIED…. ARE EVERYWHERE!

To “THE SANCTIFIED”, God Bless you, and see you on the up side.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[mailmandan]

its because the people who interpreted to english did not translate the word. but transliterated the word.

huge failure that could have been solved with one act. Interpret the word.

In Luke 12:50, we read - But I have a baptism with which to be baptized, and how I am distressed until it should be accomplished! Of course, Jesus was not distressed about water baptism, but being "immersed" into suffering, namely His sacrificial death on the cross.

 

[mailmandan]

Baptism is not a mechanism for salvation.

Amen!

Baptism is the occasion when the believer is saved.

False. (John 3:18; Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..).

If one does not believe, then there is no such thing as baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sin.

Sadly, there are many "nominal" Christians who have been water baptized but don't truly believe in Christ unto salvation. Such folks may believe "mental assent" in the existence of Christ and that His death, burial and resurrection "happened" (even the demons believe that) but they are not trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) Instead of trusting in Christ alone for salvation they are also trusting in "water and works" for salvation. (Galatians 1:6-9)

Such a thing does not exist. It is an oxymoron. Even in the case of John's baptism, repentance was a requirement. If there is no belief/faith there is no repentance.

Mere "mental assent" belief precedes repentance and repentance actually precedes saving belief.

Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. *Notice the order.

Mark 1:15 - The time is accomplished, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent and believe the gospel. *Notice the order.

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. *Notice the order.

Folks in the church of Christ often fail to understand that there is a deeper, more substantive aspect of faith which is believing in the Lord Jesus Christ for eternal life (trusting in Him alone for salvation) and most cannot distinguish between mere intellectual belief or assent from a personal faith that is trusting or resting on Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

They will cite that “even the devils believe” (from James 2:19) in their sermons and will contend that even the "faith of devils" is the same as any other faith except that the faith of devils lacks any moral or religious good works. Saving belief is not simply "mental assent" belief with the head and repentance is not simply moral self-reformation.

*This explains why people in the church of Christ reverse the scriptural order of repentance and faith and also why they have so much faith in water baptism + other works for salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

Yes you are about to figure this out. Yes both baptism were for the remission of sin,and the one inthe name of Jesus Christ is still to this day. Yes the thief on the cross was subject to the baptism of John, but whether he had been we do not know, but from scripture it appears he hadn't, but here is the most important part of the story, Jesus was still alive and on earth. While Jesus was walking this earth he had the authority to heal, forgive, and all other power that was given him by the Farther, but Jesus is no longer here ,and he left instructions as to how we are to be forgiven of our sins, it is his last will and testament, and the only way possible now that he is gone. The baptism in the name of Jesus Christ replaced the baptism of John that is elementary teaching you have not got off the milk yet .

Neither baptism obtained remission of sins, yet they were both for "in regard to/on the basis of" remission of sins received upon repentance. In Matthew 3:11, we read - “As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance.. Now was this baptism for "in order to obtain" repentance or for "in regard to/on the basis of" repentance? Obviously, the latter. Repentance "precedes" water baptism.

Now in regard to the baptism of John, it foreshadowed what Jesus would accomplish. It had to do with repentance and was a symbolic representation of cleansing, through changing one’s mind, ready to place faith in the coming Messiah for salvation.

Christian baptism also symbolizes repentance and cleansing, but Jesus has given it a different emphasis. Christian baptism is a mark of one’s identification with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. The blood of Christ (Ephesians 1:7; Colossians 1:14; 1 John 1:7) completely washes away our sins, and we are raised to new life empowered by the Holy Spirit.

Elementary my dear Watson indeed. It's time for you to put down the baby bottle.

 

[mailmandan]

What happened to repentance and confession?

In regard to receiving salvation, repentance does not need to be mentioned every time alongside of belief/faith because when belief/faith are mentioned repentance is implied or assumed because repentance precedes saving belief/faith in Christ. Confession does not need to mentioned alongside of belief/faith either because belief/faith and confession are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:8-10)

In the church of Christ 5-step plan of salvation (1. Hear 2. Believe 3. Repent 4. Confess 5. Be baptized) confession "precedes" baptism and Romans 10:10 reads - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Now how can that be if you still need to be water baptized "afterwards" in order to be saved? You need to think long and hard about this. ;)

It does not have to be repeated in every chapter of the bible. I know you are not that unlearned that you do not know that if it is mentioned at least once it is binding. We must trust and harmonize if we read that confession is required we know that it is even if it is not mentioned in all other places because we were told elsewhere. WE have to use our brains God gave us and you do on all other just reject the baptism passages.

I don't reject baptism passages. I simply put them in their proper place. Subsequent to salvation through faith. The Bible makes it clear that men are saved prior to receiving water baptism. These Gentiles in Acts 10 received the gift of the Holy Spirit and were manifesting the spiritual gift of tongues (which is only for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) after believing the gospel but before receiving water baptism. (Acts 10:44-47) This observation must be balanced, however, by the fact that baptism was not considered an "optional extra" for these Gentiles. It was a command (Acts 10:48) that they were expected to obey. However, it was not obedience to this command that saved them, but their believing in Christ. (Acts 10:43)

Baptism is the expected initial outward response to the gospel, but it is not a part of the gospel itself. (1 Corinthians 1:17; 15:1-4) There are a handful of alleged prooftexts which are often cited to prove that the Bible makes baptism mandatory for salvation. A careful examination of each of these texts in context will show that none of them prove that baptism is absolutely required for salvation, though they do prove that baptism was an assumed initiatory response to the gospel of salvation. In other words, these texts only prove that baptism is regularly associated with conversion and salvation, rather than absolutely required for salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

why do we need one, really, we are told that we have to believe and be baptized.

Why do we need one? Seriously? We have one with repentance (Luke 13:3) and belief (John 3:18) but not baptism. Hmm.. We are not told we have to believe and be baptized in order to be saved in (John 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) Did Jesus forget to mention baptism here? Also, in Mark 16:16 the first clause is clarified with ..but he who does not believe will be condemned. So, "he who believes and is baptized" is general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized.

We are told that baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is for the remission of sin.

You left out repentance here in Acts 2:38. In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

The only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18) *Perfect Harmony*

Why can we not just believe that and trust in Gods word?

Trusting in a biased church doctrine is not trusting in God's word. Scripture must harmonize with the rest of Scripture or else your biased interpretation of your pet verse is wrong. (Luke 24:47; John 3:15,16,18; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18) *Hermeneutics.

Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, (and water baptism? NO Simply faith) we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace (and water baptism? NO Simply faith) in which we stand and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. You would walk around mountains of grace in order to find water.

Why do we need to be told that if we do not believe in baptism and reject his word on it we will not be saved?

I don't reject God's word on baptism and I received water baptism after I placed my faith in Jesus Christ for salvation and was saved. The difference between you and I is that you (at best) trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (for the most part) to save you but you also trust in water baptism to help save you as well. That's not faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. On the other hand, I trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) Praise God!

Was his telling us that we must not efficient? That is really a childish question don't you think. It sounds as a person that just doesn't want to accept the truth of God's word but is trying to find a way around it so as to tickle their itchy ear syndrome.

While I was a teenager, I had temporarily attended the church of Christ. It was a friend who invited me to attend that church. His aunt was a very devout and thoroughly indoctrinated member of the church of Christ. I'll never forget several years later running into my friend's aunt at my friend's daughter's birthday party. Since then, I had received Christ through faith and was now a born-again Christian. I shared this good news with his aunt and the only question that she had for me was, "where do you attend church?" When my answer was not "the church of Christ," she bowed her head in sadness as if to imply that I was still lost because I did not say the church of Christ.

Her husband approached me a little while later and I shared the good news with him that I received Christ through faith and am now a born-again Christian as well and he had the same question for me, "where do you attend church," and when I told him and the answer was not the church of Christ, his eyes glazed over followed by a cheesy legalistic grin on his face and he simply walked away from me and neither of them would speak with me for the rest of the night.

I knew that something was terribly wrong! I could hear them both over in the corner going on and on about "salvation by water baptism" and I could hear them citing Romans 16:16 and claiming from that verse that ONLY their church, "the church of Christ" is the "true church." I quickly came to realize they were both deceived!

 

[mailmandan]

That is what you say. That is not what Jesus said. The "and" in that verse is conjunctive.

Jesus clarified the first clause with ..but he who does not believe will be condemned. Jesus did not say that whoever is not baptized will not be saved. Try reading all of it. Simply citing one half of one verse or an isolated verse taken out of context will lead you to false doctrine.

 

[mailmandan]

He didn't mention amniotic fluid either.

In regard to the word "water" in John 3:5, there are those who would argue that the natural sense of the passage parallels "water" with being born out of a mother’s womb (verse 4) and with "flesh" (verse 6). Simply stated in that case, Jesus told Nicodemus that in order to see the kingdom of God two births are necessary. The first is a physical, flesh birth, accompanied by amniotic "water" and the second is Spirit.

There are also those who would argue that Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14; 7:37-39 and in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing.

If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

Yet there are still others who would argue that "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the miracle of regeneration. (Titus 3:5)

So, to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

 

[Ritajanice]

Jesus clarified the first clause with ..but he who does not believe will be condemned. Jesus did not say that whoever is not baptized will not be saved. Try reading all of it. Simply citing one half of one verse or an isolated verse taken out of context will lead you to false doctrine.

How can you explain to someone who hasn’t been birthed in the Spirit.....they wouldn’t have a clue what you are talking about would they?


If one has been Born of God, when he testifies with our spirit that we are his children, he does that through the Holy Spirit, which is supernatural...if someone who is still carnal, dead in sin...that would be foreign to them..

How could they understand/those words in the Spirit?

They couldn’t...just my way of seeing it.

No one can understand God’s word, if they aren’t Born Again...

A Born Again knows they were birthed in the Spirit...therefore know , they don’t need water to save them....

As God says....” Only a Born Again will SEE the Kingdom of God”.......true!!

Only God can testify with our spirit that we are his children.....he does that all day every day....therefore our faith just keeps getting stronger and stronger.....because those who have been birthed in the Spirit...are the only true children of God.

Born Again by the Spirit of God....you just cannot explain that to the carnal mind,,,it’s stupid and ridiculous to them...which is 100% understandable....as they haven’t been birthed in the Spirit.

 

[mailmandan]

How can you explain to someone who hasn’t been birthed in the Spirit.....they wouldn’t have a clue what you are talking about would they?


If one has been Born of God, when he testifies with our spirit that we are his children, he does that through the Holy Spirit, which is supernatural...if someone who is still carnal, dead in sin...that would be foreign to them..

How could they understand/those words in the Spirit?

They couldn’t...just my way of seeing it.

No one can understand God’s word, if they aren’t Born Again...

A Born Again knows they were birthed in the Spirit...therefore know , they don’t need water to save them....

As God says....” Only a Born Again will SEE the Kingdom of God”.......true!!

Only God can testify with our spirit that we are his children.....he does that all day every day....therefore our faith just keeps getting stronger and stronger.....because those who have been birthed in the Spirit...are the only true children of God.

Born Again by the Spirit of God....you just cannot explain that to the carnal mind,,,it’s stupid and ridiculous to them...which is 100% understandable....as they haven’t been birthed in the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:11 - For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Ritajanice]

1 Corinthians 2:11 - For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Exactly!!...Amen!!!

 

[JBO]

I think he did. John 3:5 refers to amniotic fluid, the water of life.

That is absolutely ridiculous. Nowhere in the Bible, or anywhere else for that matter, is amniotic fluid ever call the water of life. The only place that I find the "water of life" in the NT is in Revelation. And I am pretty certain that none of those cases are referencing amniotic fluid.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That is absolutely ridiculous. Nowhere in the Bible, or anywhere else for that matter, is amniotic fluid ever call the water of life. The only place that I find the "water of life" in the NT is in Revelation. And I am pretty certain that none of those cases are referencing amniotic fluid.

who said it was the water of life

and if it is. Would it not be the word “washing of water by the word” or the live giving spirit “Out of your heart will flow living water, but this he spoke concerning the spirit who would be given to them”

water baptism is a distant fourth at best on what water could mean

 

[JBO]

For all of those who think that water in John 3 is physical birth, you think that one of the two conditions given for being born again is that one must be born physically. That doesn't seem to be a very restrictive condition; in fact, it is not limiting in any sense whatever. That would seem, to me at least, to be something that Jesus would not bother to do. What would be the purpose of doing so?

 

[Ritajanice]

I believe the water of life...which could be none other than the river of life, which flows through our veins, that life is the Spirit of God..

The pure Spirit of God...who births our spirit into his...then we have his life..” SPIRIT “. ..which are his water of everlasting life, you never thirst , if you have his Spirit in you.

Just my thoughts.

Even says so, in God’s word..

John 4:14​

ESVbut whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

 

[JBO]

who said it was the water of life

Reply #720.

 

[Ritajanice]

who said it was the water of life

and if it is. Would it not be the word “washing of water by the word” or the live giving spirit “Out of your heart will flow living water, but this he spoke concerning the spirit who would be given to them”

water baptism is a distant fourth at best on what water could mean

Of course....

Amen!!...only the Spirit can give life.