NEWSFLASH: Abraham was not a Jew. Neither was Isaac. Neither was Jacob.

[PinSeeker]

It can't mean anything until he can quote it correctly, and understand Paul's distinction between "all Israel" (saved Israel), and "of Israel" (unsaved Israel).

Which I have zero confidence that he can.

Hm, well, after reading his posts in various threads, I'm really wondering if he actually thinks about anything he says before he says it, because, to put it mildly, he's absolutely all over the place... totally scattered. :) At any rate, one thing I'm sure of is that the skies are very... colorful... in his world... :)

Grace and peace to you, covenantee.

 

[PinSeeker]

AntiSemitism is certainly spreading throughout world ... a sign of the times.

There is truly nothing new under the sun.

Grace and peace to you, RDB.

 

[Zao is life]

There is truly nothing new under the sun.

Grace and peace to you, RDB.

Antisemitism is not actually a very descriptive word. Those who are anti-Jew, are antiti-Jew.

Those who are pro-gospel truth regarding the identity of Israel and the biblical doctrine of who is of Israel and who is not, will often be falsely accused by the agents of the accuser of the brethren of being anti-Jew, a.k.a "anti-semitic".

Yet many Jewish Christians agree with what I've said in this thread, though there is disagreement among Jewish believers also. So I suppose Jewish believers are also "antisemitic" - those who do not believe that Jews who reject Christ and remain in rejection of Him were ever of Israel, and were broken off and remain broken off from the Olive tree unless and until they repent of their unbelief.

What is truly a blight on anyone's claim to believe in Jesus, is when he or she falsely accuses a Christian of being anti-Jew (a.k.a "antisemitic") just because the person does not support the false notion that Jewish people and the state called Israel are "God's chosen people and nation" at the expense of the one and only true gospel.

The claim to believe in Jesus and the readiness to hurl false accusations against anyone who does believe in Jesus do not go together.

I'm on the side of all Jewish people who are hated merely because they are Jews, and I support their right to defend themselves against groups like Hamas. The antisemitism (Jew hatred) I see disturbs me too.

NOT at the expense of Christ, but for Him. Not at the expense of what is true, but for what is true.

To be honest I question who they believe they're serving, those who falsely accuse someone of being a Jew-hater just because he does not buy their "the Jews remain God's chosen nation anyway, despite their unbelief and regardless of their position in Christ" false doctrine.

Jesus is a Jew by birth. His apostles were all Jews. So were the prophets. I believe HIM, and I believe THEM regarding Israel. How could that make me hate Jews?

Anyway the false accusations of "brothers in Christ" will not make me abandon biblical truth, i.e what Jesus Himself and His apostles taught about Israel.​

 

[PinSeeker]

Antisemitism is not actually a very descriptive word. Those who are anti-Jew, are antiti-Jew.

Those who are pro-gospel truth regarding the identity of Israel and the biblical doctrine of who is of Israel and who is not, will often be falsely accused by the agents of the accuser of the brethren of being anti-Jew, a.k.a "anti-semitic".

Yet many Jewish Christians agree with what I've said in this thread, though there is disagreement among Jewish believers also. So I suppose Jewish believers who do not believe that Jews were never of Israel and were broken off and remain broken off from the Olive tree unless and until they repent of their unbelief, are also "antisemitic".

What is truly a blight on anyone's claim to believe in Jesus, is when he or she falsely accuses a Christian of being anti-Jew (a.k.a "antisemitic") just because the person does not support Jewish people and the state called Israel at the expense of the one and only true gospel.

The claim to believe in Jesus and the readiness to hurl false accusations against anyone who does believe in Jesus do not go together.

I'm on the side of all Jewish people who are hated merely because they are Jews and I support their right to defend themselves against groups like Hamas.

NOT at the expense of Christ, but for Him. Not at the expense of what is true, but for what is true.

To be honest I question who they believe they're serving, those who falsely accuse someone of being a Jew-hater just because he does not buy their "the Jews remain God's chosen nation anyway, despite their unbelief and regardless of their position in Christ" false doctrine.

Jesus is a Jew by birth. His apostles were all Jews. So were the prophets. I believe HIM, and I believe THEM regarding Israel. How could that make me hate Jews?​

I don't really disagree with you here, FotG, but I was actually speaking (from Ecclesiastes, of course) much more generally regarding sin ~ but with a nod to anti-semitism, which is one outward form or expression of racism, as one manifestation of such.

And, frankly, I do think it very possible for Christians to be racist in some form and/or to some degree (even while detesting racism itself), and ~ again frankly ~ are, because they/we, too, are... well, still prone to sin, and thus sinners. Like Paul says, in our human condition, we still do the very things we know we ought not to do, and we don't do the things we know we should do, and in view of that, we long for the day when we will be free from sin.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[covenantee]

I don't really disagree with you here, FotG, but I was actually speaking (from Ecclesiastes, of course) much more generally regarding sin ~ but with a nod to anti-semitism, which is one outward form or expression of racism, as one manifestation of such.

And, frankly, I do think it very possible for Christians to be racist in some form and/or to some degree (even while detesting racism itself), and ~ again frankly ~ are, because they/we, too, are... well, still prone to sin, and thus sinners. Like Paul says, in our human condition, we still do the very things we know we ought not to do, and we don't do the things we know we should do, and in view of that, we long for the day when we will be free from sin.

Grace and peace to you.

Confusion arises and abounds because of the indistinction between race and religion.

Semitic refers to race.

Talmudic refers to religion.

Multitudes of Christians and others who are accused of being antiSemitic are in fact exclusively antiTalmudic; they do not oppose Jews for their race, but rather for the antiChristian religion of practising Jews.

Christians who are themselves guilty of this indistinction would do well to correct it.

 

[PinSeeker]

Confusion arises and abounds because of the indistinction between race and religion.

Semitic refers to race.

Talmudic refers to religion.

Multitudes of Christians and others who are accused of being antiSemitic are in fact exclusively antiTalmudic; they do not oppose Jews for their race, but rather for the antiChristian religion of practising Jews.

Christians who are themselves guilty of this indistinction would do well to correct it.

Again... really ~ no offense intended ~ missing the point I was making. And in view of that point, in a certain sense, you are drawing a contrast where there is no distinction. In... my opinion. :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[covenantee]

Again... really ~ no offense intended ~ missing the point I was making. And in view of that point, in a certain sense, you are drawing a contrast where there is no distinction. In... my opinion. :)

Grace and peace to you.

You addressed race, but not religion.

Are you saying that there is no distinction between the two?

Love and blessings to you, PinSeeker.

 

[PinSeeker]

You addressed race, but not religion.

Okay.

Are you saying that there is no distinction between the two?

No.

Love and blessings to you, PinSeeker.

To you also. Grace and peace.

 

[Timtofly]

It can't mean anything until he can quote it correctly, and understand Paul's distinction between "all Israel" (saved Israel), and "of Israel" (unsaved Israel).

Which I have zero confidence that he can.

All you are saying then is, saved Israel is not unsaved Israel. Sounds redundant.

They were naturally redeemed, as long as they kept their side of the OT Covenant.

Your interpretation is that God condemned them regardless. Many natural branches were condemned for the mere point that God could condemn them.

I have already pointed out that all those who think they are Israel in the last 1900+ years are not redeemed. You seem to think they are as long as certain wording is used. The made up use of "are" and "all".

My simple point is that many that once were of Israel are no longer Israel. Since the Cross, being born of Israel is not natural. Now we are in Christ because of the second birth. The OT was removed as a national economy, and the NT was opened to all of humanity regardless of ethnicity.

 

[covenantee]

All you are saying then is, saved Israel is not unsaved Israel. Sounds redundant.

They were naturally redeemed, as long as they kept their side of the OT Covenant.

Your interpretation is that God condemned them regardless. Many natural branches were condemned for the mere point that God could condemn them.

I have already pointed out that all those who think they are Israel in the last 1900+ years are not redeemed. You seem to think they are as long as certain wording is used. The made up use of "are" and "all".

My simple point is that many that once were of Israel are no longer Israel. Since the Cross being born of Israel is not natural. Now we are in Christ because of the second birth. The OT was removed as a national economy, and the NT was opened to all of humanity regardless of ethnicity.

So far I'm right. You can't quote the verse correctly.

 

[Timtofly]

So far I'm right. You can't quote the verse correctly.

And you cannot prove that accusation.

 

[covenantee]

And you cannot prove that accusation.

And you cannot prove that I'm wrong.

 

[Zao is life]

Confusion arises and abounds because of the indistinction between race and religion.

Semitic refers to race.

Talmudic refers to religion.

Multitudes of Christians and others who are accused of being antiSemitic are in fact exclusively antiTalmudic; they do not oppose Jews for their race, but rather for the antiChristian religion of practising Jews.

Christians who are themselves guilty of this indistinction would do well to correct it.

They also scream and yell and falsely accuse you of "antisemitism" if you say that no people - Jew or Gentile - are God's chosen|elect unless they are IN God's chosen through their faith in God's chosen, who is Christ.

Also if you dare say that the Deliverer came out of Zion and took away sins 2,000 years ago and what Paul is talking about in Romans 11:25-33 has been ongoing since then, and is not talking about something still to come.​

 

[Zao is life]

You addressed race, but not religion.

Are you saying that there is no distinction between the two?

Love and blessings to you, PinSeeker.

@PinSeeker
Sometimes even those who know the difference will veil the fact that they actually do know the difference in order to appease those who are falsely accusing someone of anti-semitism.

Some call it talking out of both sides of the mouth, and it's what non-Muslim nations in the West have been very good at doing with the state called Israel, saying one thing to appease the Palestinians and their supporters in the Muslim world, and another to appease Israel's Jews.

It's a.k.a "Diplomacy" which, in a political sense, is wanting to be friends with those accusers of the Jews of the state called Israel who falsely accuse them, but also to be friends with those who they know are not telling lies.

When I'm being falsely accused of being anti-Jew, I know how the Jews of Israel feel when they are falsely accused.

Personally, I don't believe there is any difference in the eyes of God between those who falsely accuse Jews of all kinds of evil, and those who falsely accuse other Christians of hating Jews because the accusers ignore the difference between race and religion.

And because I'm the one who has repeatedly been falsely accused by many here, I don't see why I should be diplomatic enough NOT to say that I also don't believe there is any difference in the eyes of God between those who talk out of both sides of the mouth to Jews and Palestinians, and those who do so between Christians falsely accusing other Christians, and the Christians being falsely accused.​

 

[Zao is life]

They were naturally redeemed, as long as they kept their side of the OT Covenant.

The OT was removed as a national economy, and the NT was opened to all of humanity regardless of ethnicity.

The more you make it about the removal of the OT covenant of law, the longer you will walk around partially blinded.

They were only ever redeemed by faith in the Word of God.

Up until the death and resurrection of Jesus, of those who did their best to obey the law, some did so because of their faith. They are the redeemed. They would probably have been found among the remnant who were saved at the time of Christ through faith in Christ, were they alive when He came, because their obedience to the law was through their faith in the Word of God.

Those who did not believe but merely went through the motions because the motions were cultural, were not redeemed. This is the sad state of most of today's Jews.

The covenant of law was fulfilled by Christ and abolished in His flesh when He shed His blood for the transgression of the law - a once-for-all sacrifice for sin, but the Abrahamic Covenant was not removed.

Jesus is the inheritor of the promises God made to Abraham, and the fulfillment of them all. So the natural descendants of Abraham who do not believe in Jesus are broken off from the Abrahamic Covenant, but Jews who repent of their unbelief in Christ are grafted back into their own Olive tree (God's calling of Abraham and his seed) again because they are still loved for the sake of their fathers - Abraham, Isaac and Jacob|Israel. The same thing is not said about Gentiles who come to Christ. We have been grafted into the Olive tree, but natural descendants of Abraham who come to Christ are grafted back into their own Olive tree again.

You've taken away God's everlasting promise to Abraham that in his seed (Jesus - a natural descendant of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah and king David according to the flesh) all the nations of the earth will be blessed; and you have made it all about the old covenant of law which was given to Israel 430 years after the promise, even though the law did not annul the promise by being replaced with a new covenant in Christ's blood.​

 

[Zao is life]

And you cannot prove that accusation.

We only have to read the Bible for proof that his accusation is true.

 

[Timtofly]

They were only ever redeemed by faith in the Word of God.

James 2:17-18

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."

 

[covenantee]

James 2:17-18

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."

As usual, you can't read or understand what you read.

FOTG: "They were only ever redeemed by faith in the Word of God."

See that word "redeemed"?

It refers to the salvation experience.

Do you think that salvation is by works, as antiChristianity declares?

If so, what works are those?

 

[Timtofly]

As usual, you can't read or understand what you read.

FOTG: "They were only ever redeemed by faith in the Word of God."

See that word "redeemed"?

It refers to the salvation experience.

Do you think that salvation is by works, as antiChristianity declares?

If so, what works are those?

James said their faith was dead without works. Start a conversation with James, if you think that is wrong.

Why do you think they were put through the Law by God? Was it just to torment them for 1400 years?

 

[Wick Stick]

Wow this thread is alarming.

The original post... isn't wrong. Judah is part of Israel, but not every Israelite is a Jew. That's like saying every dog is a Chihuahua.

I would venture to say that if a person doesn't put a difference between Jews and Israelites, they can't possibly understand the Old Testament. Which probably is going to create problems understanding the New Testament, as well.