Homosexuality: Wrong or Right?

[TinMan]

Not from my perspective and worldview. According to my worldview, acts of kindness are common to both sexes and are matters of the will and the heart.

Why? What do you mean? In my view, my kids are indicative of my "orientation." But you seemed to miss the point again. I was exploring the concept of "attraction" because attraction is a major component in the alleged concept of "orientation."

Yep romantic and emotional attraction....you know...love

Define orientation: "a person's identity in relation to the gender or genders to which they are sexually attracted . . ." (Oxford)

emotionally and romantic attracted

Sexual orientation is commonly discussed as if it were solely a characteristic of an individual, like biological sex, gender identity or age. This perspective is incomplete because sexual orientation is defined in terms of relationships with others. People express their sexual orientation through behaviors with others, including such simple actions as holding hands or kissing. Thus, sexual orientation is closely tied to the intimate personal relationships that meet deeply felt needs for love, attachment and intimacy. In addition to sexual behaviors, these bonds include nonsexual physical affection between partners, shared goals and values, mutual support and ongoing commitment. Therefore, sexual orientation is not merely a personal characteristic within an individual. Rather, one’s sexual orientation defines the group of people in which one is likely to find the satisfying and fulfilling romantic relationships that are an essential component of personal identity for many people.

Since sexual attraction is the primary and essential concept associated with sexual orientation, one can not simply ask someone about their orientation. The only way to filter out all the liars is to observe which gender they choose for a mate.

which is why no one can take your claim about your own orientation unless they directly observe you having sex with a woman.

What is "attraction" if not lust, need, pleasure or lust? What is "attraction" if not an expression of preference, liking, fondness, or proclivity? All of these things are matters of the mind, spirit, and heart -- not biologically determined.

We are exploring the concept of attraction. I pointed out that female-female attraction does not necessarily indicate sexual attraction.

But the definition of "orientation" as we saw above, is couched in terms of "gender" rather than sex. The definition relies on an absurd definition of gender which denotes a particular social construct rather than a biological one. In this view, the tacit assumption is that a gay man is not actually attracted to a biological man, he is attracted to a male who identifies as a "woman" as established by current social paradigm. In reality, the gay couple is participating in a LARP, wherein one of the partners mimics a female for the sake of the relationship.

You say a lot of uninformed and nonsensical things....but this one takes the cake.

 

[TinMan]

Your language is too imprecise for this discussion. Your description isn't wrong as far as it goes, but for the sake of my point, I described the process of reproduction, i.e. genetic transmission. A woman can't make a child on her own. Recessive expression depends on the combination of genetic material from both parents, one female and one male.

A woman's ability to get pregnant is not relevant to the issue. Fertility is the predicate to the reproductive act but the exchange of genetic material and the biological mechanism associated with the process are the relevant factors here.

Assuming that orientation is the determining factor for the choice of a mate, then logically, only one orientation results in children.

The orientation gene can't reproduce itself. End of story.

the "orientation gene" (its not a single gene) is passed through the female line kind of like mitochondria. Again basic biology.

 

[TinMan]

I doubt that LGBT children exist. There is no such thing as an LGBT child.

pretending they don't exist won't make them go away.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

There are genetic factors that cause various propensities to evil.

That's the claim that God made some to be sinners and to be evil.... came from the false doctrines of that murderer John Calvin who got it from that pagan Augustine.

God did not put in in to babies when He created them.... no, sin is learned behavior we picked after having been born into the world full of darkness and sin... and we all feel short... not born short.

 

[BarneyFife]

That's the claim that God made some to be sinners and to be evil

No, it's the claim of Scripture that we are all, by nature, the children of wrath (Ephesians 2:3).

.

 

[MatthewG]

I wonder if Pat is in heaven with the Lord. He was a friend of my mothers when she was growing up (61 now today), who was gay with another person both married. Idk if he was a believer or not.

 

[BarneyFife]

I wonder if Pat is in heaven with the Lord. He was a friend of my mothers when she was growing up (61 now today), who was gay with another person both married. Idk if he was a believer or not.

Matthew, I don't know if you have considered this, but comments like this are likely to attract very unkind replies, and not much else. None from me, I assure you but, nevertheless...

.

 

[MatthewG]

Who cares what people think, Barneyfife? I respect you as a human being. Especially on little things like this... He most likely is better of with the Lord than here.

 

[Wrangler]

Does it matter if he did or didn't? Is that going to change your answer?

No but it changes his impertinent question to THE question.

 

[TinMan]

No but it changes his impertinent question to THE question.

So what did 8 year old Raphael do that was so evil it provoked his parents to torture, mutilate and kill him?

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

No, it's the claim of Scripture that we are all, by nature, the children of wrath (Ephesians 2:3).

Yeah, that happened AFTER we were born into this world and we all fell short of God's glory by sinning and became sinners.

Only the false god of calvinism would put evil in to babies when they are created... the True Lord would not do that sin there is no evil in God for him to be able to put evil into anybody.

Ezekiel 18:20
The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father

This means we are not held responsible for Adam's sin... we committed out own sin

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

This did not say we were born sinners... it says we have sinned our own sins, not born in to sin

What we hear enters into our heart​

JOB 34:2-3 (Elihu)
2 Hear my words, O you wise men; and give ear to me, you that have knowledge.
3 For the ear tests words as the mouth tastes meat.

PROVERBS 1:5 (Solomon)
5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain to wise counsels:

PROVERBS 8:33 (Solomon)
33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and do not refuse it.

PROVERBS 18:15 (Solomon)
15 The heart of the prudent gets knowledge; and the ear of the wise seeks knowledge.

PROVERBS 22:17 (Solomon)
17 Bow down your ear, and hear the words of the wise, and apply your heart to knowledge.

PROVERBS 23:12 (Solomon)
12 Apply your heart to instruction, and your ears to the words of knowledge.

PROVERBS 23:19 (Solomon)
19 Hear, my son, and be wise, and guide your heart in the way.

EZEKIEL 3:10
10 Moreover he said to me, Son of man, all my words that I shall speak to you receive in your heart, and hear with your ears.

MATTHEW 13:18-19 (Jesus)
18 Hear therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and catches away that which was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.

MARK 4:14-15 (Jesus)
14 The sower sows the word.
15 And these are they by the wayside, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan comes immediately, and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts.

LUKE 8:11-12 (Jesus)
11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the wayside are those who hear; then comes the Devil, and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

LUKE 8:15 (Jesus)
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

ROMANS 10:17 (Paul)
17 Now faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Note: Our ears are one of our spiritual mouths through which we take in spiritual food into our spiritual heart. All of the above scriptures combine to prove this is true. The information in our heart is then used when we make decisions (Proverbs 16:9; Daniel 1:8; Acts 11:23; 2 Corinthians 9:7).

So whether we make good decisions or bad decisions depends on what we have learned. Unfortunately, because we live in a world which is full of the knowledge of evil we have all been corrupted to a greater or lesser extent. We have all made bad decisions at times and this causes our sin. Therefore we are admonished by the scripture to be careful what we hear and to shut our ears to evil things.

(Mark 4:24) "Take heed what you hear: with what measure you measure, it shall be measured to you:"
(Isaiah 33:15-16) "He who walks righteously, and speaks uprightly; he who despises the gain of oppressions, that shakes his hands from holding of bribes, who stops his ears from hearing of blood, and shuts his eyes from seeing evil; He shall dwell on high: his place of defense shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

I wonder if Pat is in heaven with the Lord. He was a friend of my mothers when she was growing up (61 now today), who was gay with another person both married. Idk if he was a believer or not.

If he never repented from being gay (turned away from it and in not being gay anymore).... and called upon Jesus as his Lord believing in the works Jesus has done in his behalf and confessing Jesus as Lord...

Then no, he is not in Heaven according what what God's Word teaches.

I'm sure there will be some who ignore what God's Word teaches that may say otherwise, but they would be speaking for the devil and not the Lord.

 

[MatthewG]

If he never repented from being gay (turned away from it and in not being gay anymore).... and called upon Jesus as his Lord believing in the works Jesus has done in his behalf and confessing Jesus as Lord...

Then no, he is not in Heaven according what what God's Word teaches.

I'm sure there will be some who ignore what God's Word teaches that may say otherwise, but they would be speaking for the devil and not the Lord.

Perhaps he heard the Spirit and the bride. The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price. What is assured Yahava, will judge people, fairly, rightly, and to me even continues to call out to people by the spirit and the bride, even in the afterlife. In the afterlife, my hope is that Yahava, will allow those who are in the kingdom, to go outside the kingdom and perhaps help those who are still in unbelief. Even if it takes a walking through the lake of fire to get to him, because of him being a consuming fire, in my opinion. Yahava, is a good God, always calling, always desiring to work with us, if one allows it to be so, by their own willingness.

 

[BarneyFife]

Yeah, that happened AFTER we were born into this world and we all fell short of God's glory by sinning and became sinners.

Only the false god of calvinism would put evil in to babies when they are created... the True Lord would not do that sin there is no evil in God for him to be able to put evil into anybody.

Ezekiel 18:20
The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father

This means we are not held responsible for Adam's sin... we committed out own sin

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

This did not say we were born sinners... it says we have sinned our own sins, not born in to sin

What we hear enters into our heart​

JOB 34:2-3 (Elihu)
2 Hear my words, O you wise men; and give ear to me, you that have knowledge.
3 For the ear tests words as the mouth tastes meat.

PROVERBS 1:5 (Solomon)
5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain to wise counsels:

PROVERBS 8:33 (Solomon)
33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and do not refuse it.

PROVERBS 18:15 (Solomon)
15 The heart of the prudent gets knowledge; and the ear of the wise seeks knowledge.

PROVERBS 22:17 (Solomon)
17 Bow down your ear, and hear the words of the wise, and apply your heart to knowledge.

PROVERBS 23:12 (Solomon)
12 Apply your heart to instruction, and your ears to the words of knowledge.

PROVERBS 23:19 (Solomon)
19 Hear, my son, and be wise, and guide your heart in the way.

EZEKIEL 3:10
10 Moreover he said to me, Son of man, all my words that I shall speak to you receive in your heart, and hear with your ears.

MATTHEW 13:18-19 (Jesus)
18 Hear therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and catches away that which was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.

MARK 4:14-15 (Jesus)
14 The sower sows the word.
15 And these are they by the wayside, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan comes immediately, and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts.

LUKE 8:11-12 (Jesus)
11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the wayside are those who hear; then comes the Devil, and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

LUKE 8:15 (Jesus)
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

ROMANS 10:17 (Paul)
17 Now faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Note: Our ears are one of our spiritual mouths through which we take in spiritual food into our spiritual heart. All of the above scriptures combine to prove this is true. The information in our heart is then used when we make decisions (Proverbs 16:9; Daniel 1:8; Acts 11:23; 2 Corinthians 9:7).

So whether we make good decisions or bad decisions depends on what we have learned. Unfortunately, because we live in a world which is full of the knowledge of evil we have all been corrupted to a greater or lesser extent. We have all made bad decisions at times and this causes our sin. Therefore we are admonished by the scripture to be careful what we hear and to shut our ears to evil things.

(Mark 4:24) "Take heed what you hear: with what measure you measure, it shall be measured to you:"
(Isaiah 33:15-16) "He who walks righteously, and speaks uprightly; he who despises the gain of oppressions, that shakes his hands from holding of bribes, who stops his ears from hearing of blood, and shuts his eyes from seeing evil; He shall dwell on high: his place of defense shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be

.

 

[BarneyFife]

so science that produces explanations you can fit your personal bias are "legitimate" but science that shows what you don't like is unsettles fluff latched on to by "activists"

Addicted
sensual
health destroying
indulgence
marginalize
profit driven
(un) wholesome
Damaging

Your personal bias is showing

Being, as I am, a character-building work-in-progress, I wouldn't deny that an idea like neuroplasticity sounds like very good news to me, since it would only serve to further ensure me that my flaws (as well as those of others) needn't go unimproved or even be considered irreversible altogether.

If the prospect of such a thing is objectionable to you, degeneracy is another option, although I can't recommend it.

What I like or don't like is of no consequence. But I am definitely biased against behavior that tends to ruin a soul's likelihood of coming to know Jesus and robbing Him of their companionship, including the kind that relishes condemnation and violent usurpation of God's prerogative to mete out just administration of punishment upon unrepentant sinners.

If you'd like to present some conclusive biological evidence that a person's lifelong preference for gender in intimate companionship is irrevocably fixed at birth, that would be very interesting to see.

LBGT youth are 80 times more likely to be physically abused by their parents AFTER their parents find out they are LGBT.

If the instance was 0.08 or 8000 times as likely, would you be compelled to change your view of the subject of the thread?

and yet here you are dismissing it.

You mean the way you dismissed my very own son's story? He was only confused when he didn't exhibit any symptoms of confusion, right? About 8 years ago, for a month or two, at least, he was truly in touch with who he really is, right? For the other 37 years and, to date, he's just been living in torturous denial, right, TinMan? His mom or I smuggled in some conversion therapy, wasn't that it? If you have trouble remembering, I can post a link for you to read where you implied all of this stuff.

Not that you owe me anything, honestly, but if you want to see an outpouring of compassion for a single second-hand story here and there that's intense enough to overshadow principle, you might at least try to fake some for a first-hand story, yourself.

Hey, I get it. The story's only worth telling if it has the emotionally evocative potential to paint all the holders of the opposing viewpoint as unconscionable monsters. Greek tragedy puts more posteriors in the seats than happily-ever-after tales, I realize. And I understand how postmodern philosophy works.

Who are we kidding here, anyway? I could never give Gabriel's story enough consideration or attention to prevent you from weaponizing words like "dismiss."

The only thing you would accept would be a capitulation to the view that sexual immorality is actually not immoral at all.

I eagerly await your fairness/incredulity/projection-charged reply (just "poking fun").

Or, you could actually address some of my points.

.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

God's Word is Good News... ALL of it, not just bits and pieces !

 

[CadyandZoe]

Does it matter if he did or didn't? Is that going to change your answer?

The question speaks to worldview, which informs us of what we need to say and what we can leave unsaid in this conversation.

 

[CadyandZoe]

pretending they don't exist won't make them go away.

I expected that you might explain how such a thing can exist.

Children are NOT sexual beings. Apart from sexual activity, LGBTQ is meaningless. Therefore, an LGBTQ child is an empty, meaningless concept.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No but it changes his impertinent question to THE question.

What we are witnessing here is the battle of two worldviews. For this reason, your question is not only pertinent, it is significant.

 

[CadyandZoe]

the "orientation gene" (its not a single gene) is passed through the female line kind of like mitochondria. Again basic biology.

The concept of "mother" implies the concept of "father." Mitochondrial traits are inherited from the mother, but a woman doesn't become a mother until she mates with a man. I hate to be so blunt but you are working overtime to use your intelligence to avoid the obvious.