A heretical teaching dismantled with the help of Paul the Evangelist.

[Truthnightmare]

Have you noticed Psalm 69:11

I adopted sackcloth as my garment— and became a mockery for them.

And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for they were saying, “He is out of his mind.” Mark 3:21

And his mother and his brothers came, and standing outside they sent to him and called him.Mark 3:31

Yes, includes Mary and her sons! @Sigma

Jesus not only had he become a mockery by the peoples but also in his own family.

F2F

I’m trying to catch up on this thread, it seems people have already made great cases, but the OP is entitled to their belief.

 

[face2face]

I’m trying to catch up on this thread, it seems people have already made great cases, but the OP is entitled to their belief.

Yes, a couple of members like to copy and paste to keep the thread going but the evidence has all been given (and overwhelming). I've tried to get them to be honest about their motives in trying to prove Mary's perpetual virginity, but they resist. I think for them it's about validating their churches dogma without putting their beliefs out there so to speak. It offers no spiritual value whatsoever.

F2F.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Yes, a couple of members like to copy and paste to keep the thread going but the evidence has all been given (and overwhelming). I've tried to get them to be honest about their motives in trying to prove Mary's perpetual virginity, but they resist. I think for them it's about validating their churches dogma without putting their beliefs out there so to speak. It offers no spiritual value whatsoever.

F2F.

I’ve never heard of this type of thinking, but I’m a simple dude. But to believe Mary was a forever virgin is beyond my grasp. Jesus literally said he has brothers, from His mother. But at this point, I hope we can all hold on to Christ, I’m not sure how much more of our wickedness the Father is going to tolerate.

 

[Sigma]

No need to wait…

There is because you haven't attempted to address my evidence here and in the opening post in this thread yet like you said you would.

 

[Truthnightmare]

There is because you haven't attempted to address my evidence here and in the opening post in this thread yet like you said you would.

Everything I’ve seen has been addressed already. And with the added information of Psalms and John 2:12 I don’t see your argument having a let to stand on.

 

[Taken]

This thread is directed at those who claim both the following:

(i) that Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt: 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were Jesus's siblings
(ii) that James of the four in Matt: 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and James in Gal. 1:19 were the same person

I​

A duel Topic of and with express in—depth differences. Much to discuss on a forum, with an effort to keep in context while noting differences in understandings of participants in such a discussion).

(Several Joseph’s, Simon’s, James’, Judas’ are mentioned in Scripture, each having particular roles per particular timeframes and circumstances.)

Laws of Nature.
Brother - same natural biological parents.
Brother - same one natural biological parent.
Brother - same with natural or adoptive parents.

Laws of Legality.
Brother - (with or without signed documents of adoption) offspring (of whomever) raised in the household of another with biological or other adopted children…whether or not the children have an other relationship, such as cousins.

Brethren ~ Clansmen of the same biological family, or non-biological friendships with the same religious or ideological beliefs.

Scripture reveals Jesus had Brothers,
and the same Brothers were his Brethren and expressly reveals they were on an outing outside of their home, yet in their homeland, with and in the care of Jesus’ Legal mother, Mary.

Matt 13:
[54] And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?
[55] Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
[56] And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
[57] And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
[58] And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

Joseph is not named. (Likely having Died), and expressly NOT with Mary and her childdren.
Joseph is implied by his Craft of Carpenter, and implied the (likely deceased) husband of Mary, and (father of) her children (named sons and unnamed daughters that are with her).
Mary’s sons and daughters Are with Mary, in their home-town, Mary having taken her children with her to the synagogue to see IF she could speak with Jesus.
Jesus has just arrived to Mary’s hometown, (from traveling), and Jesus was speaking/preaching in the local Synagogue.

It is obvious, Jesus was NOT an occupant living in Mary’s home with her children.
Jesus was an adult, traveling, ministering, preaching the Gospels to Jews in cities and their Synagogue's.

The Scripture reveals the words, Carpenter’s (Joseph) “son” (Jesus), His “mother” (Mary), His “Brethren”, (Mary’s children);
Indicating the (Brethren) are his Clansmen,
YET they do NOT live in the same city, or vicinity or household, AS DO children and their “brothers”.

Here Paul is revealing his Preaching the Gospel in Galatia, TO all the “Brethren”, “who Are with him”. (Which indicates, Brethren to be Like minded in Belief is WHO are receiving his Preaching AS Believers…yet such men are not indicative of conducting their own lives according to what they profess to Believe.) And Paul is speaking to that issue.

Gal.1​

[1] Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead.
[2] And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:


[3] Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
[4] Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
[5] To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
[6] I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
[7] Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
[8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
[9] As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
[10] For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
[11] But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
[12] For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
[13] For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
[14] And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
[15] But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
[16] To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Paul speaks of where he has been, and doing what.

[17] Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
[18] Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

Paul speaks of going to Jerusalem expressly to see Peter. And While in Jerusalem, Paul saw NO other “apostles”….EXCEPT “James the Lords (Jesus’) “brother”.

[19] But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

This James is expressly called the Lord’s “brother”….Jesus’ “brother”.
(Which reveals this James, was raised in the same household as was Jesus. The household of Joseph and Mary.)

This James is expressly indicated to be an “apostle”.

What is an “apostle”?

1. One of a group made up especially of the 12 disciples chosen by Jesus to preach the gospel.
2. A missionary of the early Christian Church.
3. A leader of the first Christian mission to a country or region.

An “apostle” is one responding to a spiritual calling to Preach the Good News Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The “Apostles”, are often delineated from all others, as they being Expressly the 12 , which Jesus, while bodily alive ON Earth, “they” who Chose, to hear, learn From Him and Preach to the Jews.

James, the brother of Jesus (same legal parents), became a believer, and an important spiritual figure in Jerusalem Preaching the Good News Gospel of Jesus Christ, thus was also a Brethren of other believers, and a minister, evangelizer, and apostle, who is one who believes and preaches.
Yet this James, was NOT one of the 12 (sent out) to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ, to Jews of other locations, outside of Jerusalem.

This James…brother of the Lord, (raised in the same household as Jesus)…This James dubbed aka “James the Just”, reveals, EVEN the household Jesus was raised in DID NOT “by default of same household”, MAKE EVERY household member, A BELIEVER in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
IOW every member of Jesus’ childhood home, Personally themselves were not automatic BELIEVERS. Individually each family member had to come into their own personal BELIEF.

And IF and WHEN an individual DOES come into Confessed Belief, they become MADE Justified to Become MADE recipients of Gods gift of Salvation.

Scripture reveals James, the brother of the Lord, being dubbed; James the Just, is indicative of him being a Believer who was Justified.

And Mary as well, as Scripture reveals she along with others, gathering together “in one accord”…hearing, believing, becoming MADE justified in one belief.

Every human begins their natural life unbelieving, Because, one can not Believe what they have not known of.

The Whole intent and desire of God is for all men to hear and learn ABOUT the Lord God, and willingly choose to follow Him and ultimately, willingly submit their whole life unto Him.

The Earthly parents of Jesus, the Earthly siblings of Jesus, even Jesus’ (prepared body,) and His soul, and His spirit, ie the WHOLE of Him, exampled to Earthly men;
How to submit ones whole life unto the Lord God, and be MADE justified for the Lord God to receive that individual unto Himself, once and forever.
They becoming Gods inheritance!


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Sigma]

I get what you are trying to do and prove, what I dont get is why! Not once have you said "this is the reason why this truth is so important"....not once.

I've provided evidence that proves Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were the sons of Jesus's mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and his wife Mary of Alphaeus (Clopas/Cleophas), and thus Jesus's cousins not His siblings. That's important because it's the Truth. When is Truth not important?

Have you noticed Psalm 69:11

I adopted sackcloth as my garment— and became a mockery for them.

And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for they were saying, “He is out of his mind.” Mark 3:21

And his mother and his brothers came, and standing outside they sent to him and called him.Mark 3:31

Yes, includes Mary and her sons! @Sigma

Jesus not only had he become a mockery by the people but also in his own family!

No wonder he rebuked them as he did

F2F

The Koine Greek word "ἀδελφοί" (sing. ἀδελφός adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi), translated to "brothers" in English, isn't the word "sons," and it has multiple definitions, e.g., "fellow-countryman," "disciple/follower," "one of the same faith," and "a near kinsman, or relative," e.g., sibling, cousin, nephew, uncle, or aunt, etc., and in the plural it regularly refers to men and women.etc.

Furthermore, you believe those brothers in Mk. 3:21;31 to have been Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) from Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, and I've confirmed they were Jesus's kinsmen, as well as proven they were specifically His cousins

Gal 1:9 & Mark 6:3 is more than not considered to the the eldest after Jesus (by Joseph and Mary) —unfortuntely for you there is no hint anywhere in the NT that James and the others mentioned in Mark 6:3 were anything other than full brothers of Jesus.

You or I can twist it either way!

F2F

If they were Jesus's siblings, they wouldn't have been full siblings, but rather half-siblings, as they wouldn't have shared Joseph as a father. However, again, as I said in post #15:

"The flaw in your believing James of the four "siblings" of Jesus in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and apostle James in Gal. 1:19 were the same person is that the latter was one of the Twelve, which means that he could've only been either James of Zebedee or James of Alphaeus, and neither of them were a son of Joseph and Mary.

However, you are right that the James in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and apostle James in Gal. 1:19 were the same person. I've provided evidence which confirms that, as well as evidence that shows he was the apostle James of Alphaeus, and that he and his three siblings were the sons of Jesus's mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and his wife Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Alphaeus), and thus were Jesus's cousins, not siblings.

I have yet to receive an answer from you to my question in post #12 as well.

 

[Sigma]

In Psalm 69, a Psalm with many predictive allusions to the Lord's earthly life (see Note on Title), verse 8 reads, "I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother's children".

The Koine Greek word used in Psalm 69:8 is "υἱός," or "sons" in English, and it has multiple definitions. You're just assuming the definition "son, child" applies in that verse, but an assumption isn't proof.

After the miracle at Cana, which they probably witnessed, we are told that "He went down to Capernaum, He, and His mother, and His brethren, and His disciples" (John 2:12).

In Jn. 2:12, the Koine Greek word used is "ἀδελφοί" (sing. ἀδελφός adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi), translated to "brothers" in English, and it has multiple definitions, e.g., "fellow-countryman," "disciple/follower," "one of the same faith," and "a near kinsman, or relative," e.g., sibling, cousin, nephew, uncle, or aunt, etc., and in the plural it regularly refers to men and women. What evidence do you have, if any, that shows siblings is the type of kinsman/relative, e.g., sibling, cousin, nephew, uncle, etc., that applies here?; and that the brothers here were specifically some or all of Jesus's brothers Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, and which ones?

Everything I’ve seen has been addressed already.

And I've refuted every argument against my evidence. If you think you can refute my evidence take a shot at it.

 

[Truthnightmare]

The Koine Greek word used in Psalm 69:8 is "υἱός," or "sons" in English, and it has multiple definitions. You're just assuming the definition "biological son" applies in that verse, but an assumption isn't evidence.



What evidence do you have, if any, that shows siblings is the type of kinsman/relative, e.g., sibling, cousin, nephew, uncle, etc., that applies here?; and that the brothers here were specifically some or all of Jesus's male brothers named in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, and which ones?



And I've refuted every argument against my evidence. If you think you can refute my evidence take a shot at it.

What evidence do you have, if any, that shows siblings is the type of kinsman/relative, e.g., sibling, cousin, nephew, uncle, etc., that applies here?; and that the brothers here were specifically some or all of Jesus's male brothers named in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, and which ones?

I’m not sure, I’m going to have to do a little more research.. Syke! You wish!

Matthew 13:55
Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

The figure here in regards to and is a Polysyndenton

Po'ly-syn'de-ton; or, Many Ands (Genesis 22:9,11. Joshua 7:24. Luke 14:21). The repetition of the word "and" at the beginning of successive clauses, each independent, important, and emphatic, with no climax at the end (Compare Aysndeton and Luke 14:13).

You also let the following allude you.

Matthew 13:57
57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and his own house.

His “own house. “house” is in relation to his family for its figure is.
Met-o'-ny-my; or, Change of Noun when one name or noun is used instead of another, to which it stands in a certain relation.

1. Of the Cause. When the cause is put for the effect (Genesis 23:8. Luke 16:29).
2. Of the Effect. When the effect is put for the cause producing it (Genesis 25:23. Acts 1:18).
3. Of the Subject. When the subject is put for something pertaining to it (Genesis 41:13. Deutronomy 28:5).
4. Of the Adjunct. When something pertaining to the subject is put for the subject itself (Genesis 28:22. Job 32:7).

Your notions are actually in opposition to the Greek figures of speech.

And the evidence of your errors of classification of the Greek can be found here.

Figures of Speech - Appendix to the Companion Bible

levendwater.org

Better put that popcorn down and pick up the Bible.

 

[Sigma]

Matthew 13:55
Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

The figure here in regards to and is a Polysyndenton

Po'ly-syn'de-ton; or, Many Ands (Genesis 22:9,11. Joshua 7:24. Luke 14:21). The repetition of the word "and" at the beginning of successive clauses, each independent, important, and emphatic, with no climax at the end (Compare Aysndeton and Luke 14:13).

You also let the following allude you.

Matthew 13:57
57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and his own house.

His “own house. “house” is in relation to his family for its figure is.
Met-o'-ny-my; or, Change of Noun when one name or noun is used instead of another, to which it stands in a certain relation.

1. Of the Cause. When the cause is put for the effect (Genesis 23:8. Luke 16:29).
2. Of the Effect. When the effect is put for the cause producing it (Genesis 25:23. Acts 1:18).
3. Of the Subject. When the subject is put for something pertaining to it (Genesis 41:13. Deutronomy 28:5).
4. Of the Adjunct. When something pertaining to the subject is put for the subject itself (Genesis 28:22. Job 32:7).

Your notions are actually in opposition to the Greek figures of speech.

And the evidence of your errors of classification of the Greek can be found here.

Figures of Speech - Appendix to the Companion Bible

levendwater.org

Better put that popcorn down and pick up the Bible.

In Matt. 13:55-56/Mk. 6:3-4, the Koine Greek words used are "ἀδελφοί" (sing. ἀδελφός adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi), translated to "brothers" in English, and "ἀδελφοί" (sing. ἀδελφός adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi), translated to "sisters" in English. We agree the definition "a near kinsman, or relative" that they share applies in Matt. 13:55-56/Mk. 6:3-4, but a kinsman/kinswoman/relative can be a sibling, cousin, nephew, niece, uncle, or aunt, etc.

Therefore, if you claim Jesus, Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were siblings, then you need to provide evidence that shows that type of kinship applies. However, I know you can't, because in my thread Were they Jesus's siblings?, I provided evidence that confirms they were brothers, as in "a near kinsman, or relative," and shows the type of kinship was cousins.

 

[Truthnightmare]

In Matt. 13:55-56/Mk. 6:3-4, the Koine Greek words used are "ἀδελφοί" (sing. ἀδελφός adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi), translated to "brothers" in English, and "ἀδελφοί" (sing. ἀδελφός adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi), translated to "sisters" in English. We agree the definition "a near kinsman, or relative" that they share applies in Matt. 13:55-56/Mk. 6:3-4, but a kinsman/kinswoman/relative can be a sibling, cousin, nephew, niece, uncle, or aunt, etc.

Therefore, if you claim Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were Jesus's siblings, then you need to provide evidence that shows that type of relation applies. However, I know you can't, because in my thread Were they Jesus's siblings?, I provided evidence that confirms Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were Jesus's brothers, as in "a near kinsman, or relative," and shows the type of relation they were to Him was cousins.

You are something else, your knowledge is out of this world, but your understanding is to “square a circle”

The objective is to determine if Jesus had literal brothers/sisters. And if these brothers/sisters came from the womb of Mary.

The first problem you have is you are only referencing two verses. You keep utilizing Matthew 13 and Mark 6.

What about when the Lord is called mary's "firstborn" (Matt. 1:25 and Luke 2:7)

You have based a doctrine off of two scriptures that can mean different things.

But Matt. 1:25 and Luke 2:7) only mean one thing.
Furthermore:
prototokos is used only in these two passages and in Rom. 8:29; Col. 1:15, 18; Heb. 1:6; 11:28; 12:23 (pl.); Rev. 1:5, so that the meaning is easily ascertained. Had He been her only son, the word would have been monogenes, which occurs in Luke 7:12; 8:42; 9:38, of human parentage; and of the Lord, as the only begotten of the Father, in John 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; 1John 4;9. In Heb. 11:17 it is used of Isaac, Abraham's only son according to the promise. ~ EW Bullinger

You assertion has been address by scholars alike…

Again…
Had they been cousins, the term would have been sungenes which is used in Mark 6:4; Luke 1:36, 58; 2:44; 14:12; 21:16; John 18:26; Acts 10:24; Rom. 9:3; 16:7, 11, 21, and is translated "kin", "kinsman" or "kinsfolk", except in Luke 1:36, 58, where it is rendered "cousin". The Scriptures distinguish "kinsman" from "brother"; see Luke 14:12; 21:16. Only in Rom. 9:3 are the two words in apposition, and there "brother" is used in the sense of fellow-Israelite (No. 2). "Brother", therefore, when used in N.T. in any sense other than that of No. 2 or of No. 3, must be restricted to signification No. 1.

Throw that popcorn away and get you some mana.

 

[Stumpmaster]

In Gal. 1:18-19, it's indicated by Paul that James was both an apostle of the Twelve and a family member of Jesus. The reason being that after Paul mentions he had seen the apostle Peter, one of the twelve apostles, in Jerusalem, he continues to say that he didn't see any of the other apostles, except James.

Many followers of Christ were called apostles, not least of these Paul.

 

[Sigma]

Many followers of Christ were called apostles, not least of these Paul.

That doesn't change the fact that Paul was referring to the Twelve in Gal. 1:18-19.

 

[Sigma]

But Matt. 1:25 and Luke 2:7 only mean one thing.

In Matt. 1:20-24, Matthew speaks about the long-awaited messianic prophecy finally coming to fruition, and Joseph accepting as his spouse the virgin who conceived the Savior of mankind by the Holy Spirit. In Matt. 1:25, Matthew reiterates and reinforces that the Savior was truly begotten by the Holy Spirit, and born of the virgin Mary, by referring to a specific period (pre-birth of Jesus) where Joseph didn't have sexual intercourse with Mary that dispels any belief the Savior was conceived by him, not the Holy Spirit, nor born of a virgin. He's not indicating whether Joseph and Mary did or didn't have sexual intercourse post-birth of Jesus.

The word "πρωτότοκος" (prōtotokos), translated to "firstborn" in English, has multiple definitions. See below:

Bill Mounce's Greek Dictionary

Forms of the word
πρωτότοκος, ον
Greek transliteration: prōtotokos
Simplified transliteration: prototokos

Numbers
Strong's number: 4416
GK Number: 4758

Statistics
Frequency in New Testament: 8
Morphology of Biblical Greek Tag: a-3a

Gloss: firstborn (human or animal). In biblical culture, the firstborn had higher status and received a greater share of the inheritance. Jesus Christ, as the firstborn of God, is of supreme status and inherits all things

Definition: first-born, Lk. 2:7; Heb. 11:28; in NT prior in generation, Col. 1:15; a firstborn head of a spiritual family, Rom. 8:29; Heb. 1:6; firstborn, as possessed of the peculiar privilege of spiritual generation, Heb. 12:23

You haven't provided evidence that the definition "eldest" applies in Lk. 2:7.

The first problem you have is you are only referencing two verses. You keep utilizing Matthew 13 and Mark 6.

It's not a problem because those verses are what this topic is about. Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 are called Jesus's siblings and that is what I've proven to be false.

Now, in Matt. 13:55-56/Mk. 6:3-4, the Koine Greek words used are "ἀδελφοί" (sing. ἀδελφός adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi), translated to "brothers" in English, and "ἀδελφοί" (sing. ἀδελφός adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi), translated to "sisters" in English. We agree the definition "a near kinsman, or relative" that they share applies in Matt. 13:55-56/Mk. 6:3-4, but a kinsman/kinswoman/relative can be a sibling, cousin, nephew, niece, uncle, or aunt, etc.

Therefore, if you claim Jesus, Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were siblings, then you need to provide evidence that shows that type of kinship applies. However, I know you can't, because in my thread Were they Jesus's siblings?, I provided evidence that confirms they were brothers, as in "a near kinsman, or relative," and shows the type of kinship was cousins.

Again…
Had they been cousins, the term would have been sungenes...

The Koine Greek word "συγγενής" (syngenēs) isn't the only word that can be used to refer to a cousin. There's also "συγγενίς" (syngenis), "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi), "αδελφαι" (sing. ἀδελφή adelphē; pl. αδελφαι adelphai), and "ἀνεψιός" (anepsios). Therefore, the use of any of those Koine Greek words aptly applies to Jesus's cousins in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, and of those words "ἀδελφοὶ" was used in those verses.

 

[Truthnightmare]

All your shortcomings of your failed notions have been exposed below.
So once again….
According to Matt. 13:55, the Lord had four brothers (i.e. half-brothers, as we say), James, Joses, Simon and Judas. He had at least three sisters also - "and His sisters, are they not all with us?" Had there been but two, the word all would have been both.
The Lord is called mary's "firstborn" (Matt. 1:25 and Luke 2:7), and the natural inference is that Mary had other children. The word prototokos is used only in these two passages and in Rom. 8:29; Col. 1:15, 18; Heb. 1:6; 11:28; 12:23 (pl.); Rev. 1:5, so that the meaning is easily ascertained. Had He been her only son, the word would have been monogenes, which occurs in Luke 7:12; 8:42; 9:38, of human parentage; and of the Lord, as the only begotten of the Father, in John 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; 1John 4;9. In Heb. 11:17 it is used of Isaac, Abraham's only son according to the promise.

In Psalm 69, a Psalm with many predictive allusions to the Lord's earthly life (see Note on Title), verse 8 reads, "I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother's children". The Gospel history records His brethren in association with His mother. After the miracle at Cana, which they probably witnessed, we are told that "He went down to Capernaum, He, and His mother, and His brethren, and His disciples" (John 2:12).

Later on they exhibit a spirit of opposition or jealousy, for while He is speaking to the people, His brethren, accompanied by His mother, sought Him, apparently to hinder His work (Matt. 12:46, 47; Mark 3:31, 32; Luke 8:19, 20). In Mark 3:21 we read, "When His friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on Him; for they said, He is beside Himself". The expression "His friends" (margin "kinsmen") is hoi par autou, "those beside Him ", and it denotes a relationship so close as to identify them with the "brethren" of v. 31. Again (John 7:3-10), they showed lack of sympathy with His work, and the reason is given in v. 5, "For neither did His brethren believe in Him".

They are not seen again till, after His resurrection, they are gathered in the upper room with the apostles, and with His mother and theirs (Acts 1:14). Their unbelief had gone. James had become a servant to the Lord Jesus Christ (James 1:1), through the appearance to him of the risen Savior (1Cor. 15:7), and, shortly, is a "pillar" of the church in Jerusalem (Acts 12:17; 15:13-21; 21:18; Gal. 1:19; 2:9, 12). The other brethren seem to have joined in the witness by itinerating; see 1Cor. 9:5.

The natural meaning of the term "His brethren", in the Scripture record, would never have been challenged, but for the desire, when corruption crept into the churches (Acts 20:29, 30), of raising Mary from the position of "handmaid of the Lord" (Luke 1:38) to the exalted one of Theotokos, mother of God, whence it was an easy step to investing her with divine honors, as being herself a goddess. And thus the way was cleared for identifying her with the great goddess of Paganism, who is the mother of a divine son, and who is yet a virgin, a deity best known by the appellation she bore in Egypt, Isis, the mother of Horus.

So it was put forth that Mary had no children other than the Lord, and that His brethren and sisters were either the children of Joseph by a former wife, or the Lord's cousins, the children of Mary, the wife of Cleophas. Those who maintained the former opinion asserted that Joseph was an old man when he married Mary. Of this there is not the least hint in the Gospel records. If he had older children, the right of the Lord Jesus to the throne of David would be invalidated, for the two genealogies in Matt. 1 and Luke 3 show that the regal rights were united in Joseph and Mary (Ap. 99).

With reference to Jerome's "cousin" theory, it may be stated that the word "brother" is used in Scripture, (1) in the sense of blood-relationship, as children of the same parent or parents; (2) in the wider sense of descent from a common ancestor, e.g. Acts 7:23, 25, where Abraham is the forefather; (3) in a still wider signification of fellow-man (Matt. 7:3-5; 18:15); (4) to express spiritual relationship (Matt. 23:8; 28:10; Acts 9:17; Rom. 8:29; Heb. 2:11). In the passages where His brethren are referred to, viz. Matt. 12:46, 47; 13:55; Mark 3:31; Luke 8:19; John 7:3, 5, 10; Acts 1:14; 1Cor 9:5; Gal. 1:19, only the first meaning can apply.

Had they been cousins, the term would have been sungenes which is used in Mark 6:4; Luke 1:36, 58; 2:44; 14:12; 21:16; John 18:26; Acts 10:24; Rom. 9:3; 16:7, 11, 21, and is translated "kin", "kinsman" or "kinsfolk", except in Luke 1:36, 58, where it is rendered "cousin". The Scriptures distinguish "kinsman" from "brother"; see Luke 14:12; 21:16. Only in Rom. 9:3 are the two words in apposition, and there "brother" is used in the sense of fellow-Israelite (No. 2). "Brother", therefore, when used in N.T. in any sense other than that of No. 2 or of No. 3, must be restricted to signification No. 1.

 

[Sigma]

Post 1 of 2

In Psalm 69, a Psalm with many predictive allusions to the Lord's earthly life (see Note on Title), verse 8 reads, "I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother's children".

In Ps. 69:8, the Koine Greek word used is "υἱός," or "sons" in English, and it has multiple definitions. You assume Ps. 69:8 means Mary of Joseph had other children, but an assumption isn't proof.

The Lord is called mary's "firstborn" (Matt. 1:25 and Luke 2:7), and the natural inference is that Mary had other children.

The word "πρωτότοκος" (prōtotokos), translated to "firstborn" in English, has multiple definitions. You assume the definition "eldest" applies in Lk. 2:7, but an assumption isn't proof.

According to Matt. 13:55, the Lord had four brothers (i.e. half-brothers, as we say), James, Joses, Simon and Judas. He had at least three sisters also - "and His sisters, are they not all with us?" Had there been but two, the word all would have been both.

In Matt. 13:55-56/Mk. 6:3-4, the Koine Greek words used are "ἀδελφοί" (sing. ἀδελφός adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi), translated to "brothers" in English, and "ἀδελφοί" (sing. ἀδελφός adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi), translated to "sisters" in English. We agree the definition "a near kinsman, or relative" that they share applies in Matt. 13:55-56/Mk. 6:3-4, but a kinsman/kinswoman/relative can be a sibling, cousin, nephew, niece, uncle, or aunt, etc.

Therefore, if Jesus, Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were siblings, then you need to provide evidence that shows that type of kinship applies. However, I know you can't, because in my thread Were they Jesus's siblings?, I provided evidence that confirms they were brothers, as in "a near kinsman, or relative," and shows the type of kinship was cousins.

...we are told that "He went down to Capernaum, He, and His mother, and His brethren, and His disciples" (John 2:12)

In Jn. 2:12, the Koine Greek word used is "ἀδελφοί" (sing. ἀδελφός adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi), translated to "brothers" in English, and it has multiple definitions, e.g., "fellow-countryman," "disciple/follower," "one of the same faith," and "a near kinsman, or relative," e.g., sibling, cousin, nephew, uncle, or aunt, etc., and in the plural it regularly refers to men and women.

Therefore, if Jesus's brothers in Jn. 2:12 were Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) from Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, whom you claim were His siblings, then you need to provide evidence that shows that type of kinship applies in Jn. 2:12; and that the brothers here were specifically some or all of Jesus's male brothers named in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, and which ones?

However, I know you can't, because in my thread Were they Jesus's siblings?, I provided evidence that confirms they were brothers, as in "a near kinsman, or relative," and shows the type of kinship was cousins. And, in Jn. 2:12, Jesus's brothers were two of His four cousins, James and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) of Alphaeus, and His disciples were Peter and Andrew, who later became two of His twelve elected apostles, and they accompanied Him and His mother to Capernaum. (The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. I, ch. 51, pp. 160-161)

Later on they exhibit a spirit of opposition or jealousy, for while He is speaking to the people, His brethren, accompanied by His mother, sought Him, apparently to hinder His work (Matt. 12:46, 47; Mark 3:31, 32; Luke 8:19, 20).

In Matt. 12:46-47, Mk. 3:31-32, and Lk. 8:19-20, the Koine Greek word used is "ἀδελφοί" (sing. ἀδελφός adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi), translated to "brothers" in English, and it has multiple definitions, e.g., "fellow-countryman," "disciple/follower," "one of the same faith," and "a near kinsman, or relative," e.g., sibling, cousin, nephew, uncle, or aunt, etc., and in the plural it regularly refers to men and women.

Therefore, if Jesus's brothers in Matt. 12:46-47, Mk. 3:31-32, and Lk. 8:19-20 were Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) from Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, whom you claim were His siblings, then you need to provide evidence that shows that type of kinship applies in Matt. 12:46-47, Mk. 3:31-32, and Lk. 8:19-20; and that the brothers here were specifically some or all of Jesus's male brothers named in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, and which ones?

However, I know you can't, because in my thread Were they Jesus's siblings?, I provided evidence that confirms they were brothers, as in "a near kinsman, or relative," and shows the type of kinship was cousins. And, in Matt. 12:46, Mk. 3:31, and Lk. 8:19, Jesus's brothers who arrived with His mother to speak with Him were two of His four cousins, Joseph and Simon of Alphaeus. (The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. II, ch. 268, pp. 430-436)

Again (John 7:3-10), they showed lack of sympathy with His work, and the reason is given in v. 5, "For neither did His brethren believe in Him".

In Jn. 7:3;5, the Koine Greek word used is "ἀδελφοί" (sing. ἀδελφός adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi), translated to "brothers" in English, and it has multiple definitions, e.g., "fellow-countryman," "disciple/follower," "one of the same faith," and "a near kinsman, or relative," e.g., sibling, cousin, nephew, uncle, or aunt, etc., and in the plural it regularly refers to men and women.

Therefore, if Jesus's brothers in Jn. 7:3;5 were Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) from Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, whom you claim were His siblings, then you need to provide evidence that shows that type of kinship applies in Jn. 7:3;5; and that the brothers here were specifically some or all of Jesus's male brothers named in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, and which ones?

However, I know you can't, because in my thread Were they Jesus's siblings?, I provided evidence that confirms they were brothers, as in "a near kinsman, or relative," and shows the type of kinship was cousins. And, in Jn. 7:3-4, Jesus's brothers speaking were two of His four cousins, Joseph and Simon of Alphaeus, who at that time were unbelievers, though they later came to believe. (The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. IV, ch. 476, pp. 249-253)

 

[Sigma]

Post 2 of 2

They are not seen again till, after His resurrection, they are gathered in the upper room with the apostles, and with His mother and theirs (Acts 1:14).

In Ac. 1:14, the Koine Greek word used is "ἀδελφοί" (sing. ἀδελφός adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi), translated to "brothers" in English, and it has multiple definitions, e.g., "fellow-countryman," "disciple/follower," "one of the same faith," and "a near kinsman, or relative," e.g., sibling, cousin, nephew, uncle, or aunt, etc., and in the plural it regularly refers to men and women.

Therefore, if Jesus's brothers in Ac. 1:14 were Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) from Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, whom you claim were His siblings, then you need to provide evidence that shows that type of kinship applies in Ac. 1:14; and that the brothers here were specifically some or all of Jesus's male brothers named in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, and which ones?

However, I know you can't, because in my thread Were they Jesus's siblings?, I provided evidence that confirms they were brothers, as in "a near kinsman, or relative," and shows the type of kinship was cousins. And, in Ac. 1:14, Jesus's brothers could've only been some of His disciples, not the twelve apostles because of v. 13, nor any siblings because I've shown those claimed to be His siblings were actually His cousins.

The other brethren seem to have joined in the witness by itinerating; see 1Cor. 9:5.

In 1 Cor. 9:5, the Koine Greek word used is "ἀδελφοί" (sing. ἀδελφός adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi), translated to "brothers" in English, and it has multiple definitions, e.g., "fellow-countryman," "disciple/follower," "one of the same faith," and "a near kinsman, or relative," e.g., sibling, cousin, nephew, uncle, or aunt, etc., and in the plural it regularly refers to men and women.

Therefore, if Jesus's brothers in 1 Cor. 9:5 were Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) from Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, whom you claim were His siblings, then you need to provide evidence that shows that type of kinship applies in 1 Cor. 9:5; and that the brothers here were specifically some or all of Jesus's male brothers named in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, and which ones?

However, I know you can't, because in my thread Were they Jesus's siblings?, I provided evidence that confirms they were brothers, as in "a near kinsman, or relative," and shows the type of kinship was cousins. And, in 1 Cor. 9:5, the "brothers of the Lord" were the apostles James and Judas of Alphaeus who were also Jesus's cousins. It's not a problem they were mentioned separately from the rest of the twelve apostles, because notice in the same verse it also says "the rest of the apostles and Cephas". We know the apostle Peter was also called "Cephas," yet he's mentioned separately from the rest of the twelve apostles as well, though still one of them.

James had become a servant to the Lord Jesus Christ (James 1:1), through the appearance to him of the risen Savior (1Cor. 15:7), and, shortly, is a "pillar" of the church in Jerusalem (Acts 12:17; 15:13-21; 21:18; Gal. 1:19; 2:9, 12).

In my thread Were they Jesus's siblings?, the scriptural verses and crossover agreement between all my sources, even if not every surname is listed by each individual source, collectively show that James in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3;apostle James of Alphaeus; James the Less; James the Just; James the bishop of Jerusalem; James "the brother of the Lord;" and the author of the Epistle of James were the same person, and the son of Joseph's brother, Alphaeus, and his wife Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Alpaheus), and thus he and his siblings Simon, Joseph, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were Jesus's cousins.

...(1) in the sense of blood-relationship, as children of the same parent or parents; .... In the passages where His brethren are referred to, viz. Matt. 12:46, 47; 13:55; Mark 3:31; Luke 8:19; John 7:3, 5, 10; Acts 1:14; 1Cor 9:5; Gal. 1:19, only the first meaning can apply.

According to who?

Had they been cousins, the term would have been sungenes...

What makes Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) Jesus's cousins is that they were the sons of His mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, which I've proven.

Additionally, there's multiple words in the Koine Greek language that can be used to refer to a cousin, not only "συγγενής" (syngenēs), such as "συγγενίς" (syngenis), "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi), "αδελφαι" (sing. ἀδελφή adelphē; pl. αδελφαι adelphai), and "ἀνεψιός" (anepsios). Therefore, the use of any of them aptly applies to Jesus's cousins in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, and of these words "ἀδελφοὶ" was used in those verses.


In conclusion, you claim Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were Jesus's siblings, but no matter what other verses you may cite going forward, in my thread Were they Jesus's siblings?, I've provided evidence that proves those four were the sons of Jesus's mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and thus His cousins. You haven't even attempted to refute that evidence, but even if you did attempt, I know you couldn't succeed because the Truth can't be refuted, only accepted or rejected.

 

[Philip James]

try actually thinking about the Lords words - see how he rebukes his mother and his brothers who up until that time had not converted to the true Gospel.

wow, just wow


"My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord;

my spirit rejoices in God my savior.

For he has looked upon his handmaid's lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.

The Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is his name.

His mercy is from age to age to those who fear him.

He has shown might with his arm, dispersed the arrogant of mind and heart.

He has thrown down the rulers from their thrones but lifted up the lowly.

The hungry he has filled with good things; the rich he has sent away empty.

He has helped Israel his servant, remembering his mercy,

according to his promise to our fathers, to Abraham and to his descendants forever."

 

[Stumpmaster]

That doesn't change the fact that Paul was referring to the Twelve in Gal.

There is no fact, only distortion.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Post 2 of 2



In Ac. 1:14, the Koine Greek word used is "ἀδελφοί" (sing. ἀδελφός adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi), translated to "brothers" in English, and it has multiple definitions, e.g., "fellow-countryman," "disciple/follower," "one of the same faith," and "a near kinsman, or relative," e.g., sibling, cousin, nephew, uncle, or aunt, etc., and in the plural it regularly refers to men and women.

Therefore, if you claim Jesus's brothers in Ac. 1:14 were Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) from Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, whom you claim were His siblings, then you need to provide evidence that shows siblings is the type of kinship that applies in Ac. 1:14; and that the brothers here were specifically some or all of Jesus's male brothers named in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, and which ones?

However, I know you can't, because in my thread Were they Jesus's siblings?, I provided evidence that confirms they were brothers, as in "a near kinsman, or relative," and shows the type of kinship was cousins. And, in Ac. 1:14, Jesus's brothers could've only been some of His disciples, not the twelve apostles because of v. 13, nor any siblings because I've shown those claimed to be His siblings were actually His cousins.



In 1 Cor. 9:5, the Koine Greek word used is "ἀδελφοί" (sing. ἀδελφός adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi), translated to "brothers" in English, and it has multiple definitions, e.g., "fellow-countryman," "disciple/follower," "one of the same faith," and "a near kinsman, or relative," e.g., sibling, cousin, nephew, uncle, or aunt, etc., and in the plural it regularly refers to men and women.

Therefore, if you claim Jesus's brothers in 1 Cor. 9:5 were Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) from Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, whom you claim were His siblings, then you need to provide evidence that shows siblings is the type of kinship that applies in 1 Cor. 9:5; and that the brothers here were specifically some or all of Jesus's male brothers named in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, and which ones?

However, I know you can't, because in my thread Were they Jesus's siblings?, I provided evidence that confirms they were brothers, as in "a near kinsman, or relative," and shows the type of kinship was cousins. And, in 1 Cor. 9:5, the "brothers of the Lord" were the apostles James and Judas of Alphaeus who were also Jesus's cousins. It's not a problem they were mentioned separately from the rest of the twelve apostles, because notice in the same verse it also says "the rest of the apostles and Cephas". We know the apostle Peter was also called "Cephas," yet he's mentioned separately from the rest of the twelve apostles as well, though still one of them.



In my thread Were they Jesus's siblings?, the scriptural verses and crossover agreement between all my sources, even if not every surname is listed by each individual source, collectively show that James in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3;apostle James of Alphaeus; James the Less; James the Just; James the bishop of Jerusalem; James "the brother of the Lord;" and the author of the Epistle of James were the same person, and the son of Joseph's brother, Alphaeus, and his wife Mary of Cleophas (Clopas/Alpaheus), and thus he and his siblings Simon, Joseph, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were Jesus's cousins.



According to who?



What makes Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) Jesus's cousins is that they were the sons of His mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, which I've proven.

Additionally, there's multiple words in the Koine Greek language that can be used to refer to a cousin, not only "συγγενής" (syngenēs), such as "συγγενίς" (syngenis), "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi), "αδελφαι" (sing. ἀδελφή adelphē; pl. αδελφαι adelphai), and "ἀνεψιός" (anepsios). Therefore, the use of any of them aptly applies to Jesus's cousins in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, and of these words "ἀδελφοὶ" was used in those verses.


In conclusion, you claim Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were Jesus's siblings, but no matter what other verses you may cite going forward, in my thread Were they Jesus's siblings?, I've provided evidence that proves those four were the sons of Jesus's mother's spouse's brother, Alphaeus, and thus His cousins. You haven't even attempted to refute that evidence, but even if you did attempt, I know you couldn't succeed because the Truth can't be refuted, only accepted or rejected.

You believe you have been enlightened with some private understanding of scripture. What you are presenting is nothing more than a Catholic position trying to make Mary a virgin throughout her life.
Catholics pray to Mary, even though we are told to pray only to the Father. So you must attempt to make Mary something she is not. I grew up Catholic so I know Catholic BS. At this point you are ego driven, not looking for truth but merely trying to make a proclamation of your own prominence. You have been refuted and proven wrong by many members.

A child can understand
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS

Your position is ridiculous, just another person on a forum pretending they have hidden knowledge that others are not privy to.

Just sad!