False Teaching: Mary died a virgin. Biblical Proof Mary had children.

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Rella ~ I am a woman

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Again, I've answered many times in various threads, including this one (post #352), and you disagree with my answer. You don't agree that Matt. 1:25 doesn't indicate whether Joseph and Mary had sexual intercourse after Jesus's birth, but rather you argue the following:

"And he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son..." (Matt. 1:25)
"That little word 'till' implies Joseph certainly did know her after Christ was born."

According to your logic, that same little word "till" implies Michal certainly did have children after she died:
“Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death.” (2 Sam. 6:23)

You told me that's silly, and it is silly logic, and yet you cling to it, because you'd rather abandon reason than admit being wrong on something, especially to Catholics. It's prideful to say the least.
Good Morning Sigma,

Would you like to come to my house for Thanksgiving dinner this year?

I'm just letting everyone know that no desserts will be available till the dinner is eaten.

And I am thanking you in advance because I wont have to make any based on your understanding of the use of the word of the word "till" in Mathew 1:25.

I'll let you know the results of that on 11/24.
 
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Augustin56

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well he left the church.

But only the bible will let us know which body that is..
The Church founded by Christ preceded the New Testament, by a long ways. The New Testament wasn't decided until the late 4th century, by the Church, at the Councils of Rome, Hippo, and Carthage, where they reviewed over 300+ documents, letters, etc. They prayed to the Holy Spirit for guidance and settled on only the 27 that we today call the New Testament.

Jesus didn't create a Bible-reading Church. That would have been very impractical. The vast, vast majority of humanity was illiterate until the last 100 years or so of Christianity. A "bible-reading" approach would have excluded the vast majority of humanity. Jesus created a teaching and preaching Church. He trained the Apostles for three years, and they trained their successors, the bishops, who did likewise.

Your view of the Bible is predecated on personal interpretation of Scripture, which St. Peter warns against in Scripture (2 Peter 1:20-21), and for good reason. How can you get to the fullness of Christ's truth if every man, woman, and child is allowed to personally interpret the Scriptures, coming up with different and contradictory interpretations? Why are there so many thousands of man-made Protestant denominations. Protestantism and this approach didn't begin until the 16th century. You would have to show that Jesus came back (or an angel, as the Mormons proclaim) and "straightened things out" and changed His methodology to personal interpretation of some translation of the Bible.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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The Church founded by Christ preceded the New Testament, by a long ways. The New Testament wasn't decided until the late 4th century, by the Church, at the Councils of Rome, Hippo, and Carthage, where they reviewed over 300+ documents, letters, etc. They prayed to the Holy Spirit for guidance and settled on only the 27 that we today call the New Testament.
Jesus didn't create a Bible-reading Church. That would have been very impractical. The vast, vast majority of humanity was illiterate until the last 100 years or so of Christianity. A "bible-reading" approach would have excluded the vast majority of humanity. Jesus created a teaching and preaching Church. He trained the Apostles for three years, and they trained their successors, the bishops, who did likewise.

Your view of the Bible is predecated on personal interpretation of Scripture, which St. Peter warns against in Scripture (2 Peter 1:20-21), and for good reason. How can you get to the fullness of Christ's truth if every man, woman, and child is allowed to personally interpret the Scriptures, coming up with different and contradictory interpretations? Why are there so many thousands of man-made Protestant denominations. Protestantism and this approach didn't begin until the 16th century. You would have to show that Jesus came back (or an angel, as the Mormons proclaim) and "straightened things out" and changed His methodology to personal interpretation of some translation of the Bible.
Your wrong.

Jesus established it with the apostles.. It did not take almost 5 centuries for hm to complete the church or the word.

The reason many say it is 4th century is because that is when the church was pagan i zed, and stopped being the church Jesus created
 
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Sigma

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Good Morning Sigma,

Would you like to come to my house for Thanksgiving dinner this year?

I'm just letting everyone know that no desserts will be available till after the dinner is eaten.

And I am thanking you in advance because I wont have to make any based on your understanding of the use of the word of the word "till" in Mathew 1:25.

I'll let you know the results of that on 11/24.

The difference is you include the word "after" in "I'm just letting everyone know that no desserts will be available till after the dinner is eaten." The word "after" isn't in Matt. 1:25 and 2 Sam. 6:23, but you interpret those verses as if it is:

"And he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son..." (Matt. 1:25)
"That little word "till" implies Joseph certainly did know her after Christ was born."

Therefore, according to your logic, that same little word "till" implies Michal certainly did have children after she died:
“Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death.” (2 Sam. 6:23)

That logic is silly, and yet you and others cling to it, because you'd rather abandon reason than admit being wrong about this, especially to Catholics. And, that's silly too, because we're not going to make you feel bad for it.
 

David in NJ

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The difference is you include the word "after" in "I'm just letting everyone know that no desserts will be available till after the dinner is eaten." The word "after" isn't in Matt. 1:25 and 2 Sam. 6:23, but you interpret those verses as if it is:

"And he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son..." (Matt. 1:25)
"That little word "till" implies Joseph certainly did know her after Christ was born."

Therefore, according to your logic, that same little word "till" implies Michal certainly did have children after she died:
“Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death.” (2 Sam. 6:23)

That logic is silly, and yet you and others cling to it, because you'd rather abandon reason than admit being wrong about this, especially to Catholics. And, that's silly too, because we're not going to make you feel bad for it.
silly
 

Rella ~ I am a woman

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The Church founded by Christ preceded the New Testament, by a long ways. The New Testament wasn't decided until the late 4th century, by the Church, at the Councils of Rome, Hippo, and Carthage, where they reviewed over 300+ documents, letters, etc. They prayed to the Holy Spirit for guidance and settled on only the 27 that we today call the New Testament.

Jesus didn't create a Bible-reading Church. That would have been very impractical. The vast, vast majority of humanity was illiterate until the last 100 years or so of Christianity. A "bible-reading" approach would have excluded the vast majority of humanity. Jesus created a teaching and preaching Church. He trained the Apostles for three years, and they trained their successors, the bishops, who did likewise.

Your view of the Bible is predecated on personal interpretation of Scripture, which St. Peter warns against in Scripture (2 Peter 1:20-21), and for good reason. How can you get to the fullness of Christ's truth if every man, woman, and child is allowed to personally interpret the Scriptures, coming up with different and contradictory interpretations? Why are there so many thousands of man-made Protestant denominations. Protestantism and this approach didn't begin until the 16th century. You would have to show that Jesus came back (or an angel, as the Mormons proclaim) and "straightened things out" and changed His methodology to personal interpretation of some translation of the Bible.
From my RCC family members I know not even all of them had a copy of their Holy Bible... and the one who recently died at 96, still did not.

They and she relied on what the priests preached on and their interpretations. (You know... many of those upstanding men who gave extra benefits to their alter boys)

And you are going to say that it was not theirs but what ultimately came down from Rome....

For the buck in the RCC stops at the POPE....

And it is your belief that the Catholic church is unified where the Protestants are not....

THEN WHY, if your church was the one that was originally started did the Orthodox split in the Great Schism of 1054.

Have you done a deep dive into this?

Have you discovered why they believe your side is in error in a great many things?

Why for the Schism???
Causes: Ecclesiastical, theological, political, cultural, jurisdictional, and language differences. Result: Permanent separation between the Roman Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, and Russian Orthodox Churches. Recent relations between East and West have improved, but to date, the churches remain divided.

One of the many religious disagreements between the western (Roman) and eastern (Byzantine) branches of the church had to do with whether or not it was acceptable to use unleavened bread for the sacrament of communion.

Seriously?.... yeah, this is certainly a true divider.....

You mention about thousands of man-made Protestant churches.....

How about all the Orthodox that came about when they split from you....

It should also be noted that the Eastern Orthodox Church constitutes a separate tradition from the churches of the so-called Oriental Orthodox Communion, now including the Armenian Apostolic Church, the Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Church, the Eritrean Tewahedo Orthodox Church, the Coptic Orthodox Church, the Syriac Orthodox Partriarchate of Antioch and All the East, and the Malankara Orthodox Church of India.

Especially

From the time of the Council of Chalcedon in 451 to the late 20th century, the Oriental Orthodox churches were out of communion with the Roman Catholic Church and later the Eastern Orthodox Church because of a perceived difference in doctrine regarding the divine and human natures of Jesus.

BUT HERE IS THE BIGGIE:

The Eastern Orthodox Church is opposed to the Roman Catholic doctrine of papal supremacy.

The test of authentic catholicity is adherence to the authority of the Church's Holy Tradition, and then to the witness of Sacred "Scripture", which is itself a product of the Church's aforementioned Holy Tradition. It is not defined by adherence to any particular see. It is the position of the Eastern Orthodox Church that it has never accepted the pope as de jure leader of the entire church. All bishops are equal "as Peter", therefore every church under every bishop (consecrated in apostolic succession) is fully complete (the original meaning of catholic).

HERE IS A BIT OF TRIVIA FOR ALL ( from the above article)

Referring to Ignatius of Antioch,[1] Carlton says

Contrary to popular opinion, the word catholic does not mean "universal"; it means "whole, complete, lacking nothing."

It is the position of Orthodox Christianity that Roman Catholic arguments in support of the teaching have relied on proofs from Fathers that have either been misinterpreted or so taken out of context as to misrepresent their true intent. It is the position of Orthodox Christianity that a closer examination of those supposed supports would have the effect of either not supporting the argument or have the opposite effect of supporting the counter-argument.

OKAY... I will stop with the references.

I only posted these to show that while the RCC church claims to be the original church... for reasons , some of listed here, the Orthodox Spilt... and they also had branches....

This is very like the Protestants.... People are not going to agree. I dont think we are supposed to.

NOW: this is a very interesting read I just came upon.


Read point #3.... just for information.....NOT for discussion
 

Rella ~ I am a woman

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The difference is you include the word "after" in "I'm just letting everyone know that no desserts will be available till after the dinner is eaten." The word "after" isn't in Matt. 1:25 and 2 Sam. 6:23, but you interpret those verses as if it is:

"And he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son..." (Matt. 1:25)
"That little word "till" implies Joseph certainly did know her after Christ was born."

Therefore, according to your logic, that same little word "till" implies Michal certainly did have children after she died:
“Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death.” (2 Sam. 6:23)

That logic is silly, and yet you and others cling to it, because you'd rather abandon reason than admit being wrong about this, especially to Catholics. And, that's silly too, because we're not going to make you feel bad for it

Thank you, thank you, thank you for catching that.

I just edited it to read correctly.
 

Sigma

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Thank you, thank you, thank you for catching that.

I just edited it to read correctly.

The difference is you include the word "after" in "I'm just letting everyone know that no desserts will be available till after the dinner is eaten." The word "after" isn't in Matt. 1:25 and 2 Sam. 6:23, but you and others interpret those verses as if it is:

"And he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son..." (Matt. 1:25)
"That little word "till" implies Joseph certainly did know her after Christ was born."

Therefore, according to your logic,

that same little word "till" implies Michal certainly did have children after she died:
“Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death.” (2 Sam. 6:23)

That logic is silly, and yet you and others cling to it, because you'd rather abandon reason than admit being wrong about this, especially to Catholics. And, that's silly too, because we're not going to make you feel bad for it.

Why do you insert a word to verses that aren't there?
 

Rella ~ I am a woman

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that same little word "till" implies Michal certainly did have children after she died:
“Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death.” (2 Sam. 6:23)
DEPENDING: on the interpreter.

The Bereans say 23And Michal the daughter of Saul had no children to the day of her death.

To the day of her death is also the Hebrew/English interlinear


New Living Translation
So Michal, the daughter of Saul, remained childless throughout her entire life.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
So Saul's daughter Michal was childless her entire life.
 

Rella ~ I am a woman

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As for Matt. 1:25, it doesnt say "till after", so why do you act like it does?
Because I am of the school that says that as written it is confusing.

And you say all the following is wrong... why?

Christian Standard Bible
but did not have sexual relations with her until she gave birth to a son. And he named him Jesus.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
but did not know her intimately until she gave birth to a son. And he named Him Jesus.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And he did not know her sexually until she delivered her firstborn son, and she called his name Yeshua.

Contemporary English Version
But they did not sleep together before her baby was born. Then Joseph named him Jesus.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
He did not have marital relations with her before she gave birth to a son. Joseph named the child Jesus.

Good News Translation
But he had no sexual relations with her before she gave birth to her son. And Joseph named him Jesus.

International Standard Version
He did not have marital relations with her until she had given birth to a son; and he named him Jesus.

Majority Standard Bible
But he had no union with her until she gave birth to her firstborn Son. And he gave Him the name Jesus.

NET Bible
but did not have marital relations with her until she gave birth to a son, whom he named Jesus.

New Revised Standard Version
but had no marital relations with her until she had borne a son; and he named him Jesus.

New Heart English Bible
and had no marital relations with her until she had brought forth a son; and he named him Jesus.

Weymouth New Testament
but did not live with her until she had given birth to a son. The child's name he called JESUS.

World English Bible
and didn’t know her sexually until she had given birth to her firstborn son. He named him Jesus.
 

Sigma

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Because I am of the school that says that as written it is confusing.

And you say all the following is wrong... why?

Christian Standard Bible
but did not have sexual relations with her until she gave birth to a son. And he named him Jesus.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
but did not know her intimately until she gave birth to a son. And he named Him Jesus.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And he did not know her sexually until she delivered her firstborn son, and she called his name Yeshua.

Contemporary English Version
But they did not sleep together before her baby was born. Then Joseph named him Jesus.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
He did not have marital relations with her before she gave birth to a son. Joseph named the child Jesus.

Good News Translation
But he had no sexual relations with her before she gave birth to her son. And Joseph named him Jesus.

International Standard Version
He did not have marital relations with her until she had given birth to a son; and he named him Jesus.

Majority Standard Bible
But he had no union with her until she gave birth to her firstborn Son. And he gave Him the name Jesus.

NET Bible
but did not have marital relations with her until she gave birth to a son, whom he named Jesus.

New Revised Standard Version
but had no marital relations with her until she had borne a son; and he named him Jesus.

New Heart English Bible
and had no marital relations with her until she had brought forth a son; and he named him Jesus.

Weymouth New Testament
but did not live with her until she had given birth to a son. The child's name he called JESUS.

World English Bible
and didn’t know her sexually until she had given birth to her firstborn son. He named him Jesus.

There's no word in the original language Koine Greek, nor in any of those English translations, that use the word "after" after the word "till." So, you shouldn't insert a word into a verse that isn't there, just because you think it's confusing as is. And, it's not confusing anyway, especially if we consider the context of Matt. 1:20-24, where Matthew is speaking about the long-awaited messianic prophecy finally coming to fruition, and Joseph accepting as his spouse the virgin who conceived the Savior of mankind by the Holy Spirit.

In Matt. 1:25, Matthew reiterates and reinforces that the Savior was truly begotten by the Holy Spirit, and born of the Virgin Mary, by stating that Joseph didn't have sexual intercourse with Her prior to Jesus's birth, to dispel any belief he was conceived by him, and not conceived by the Holy Spirit, and not born of a virgin. The author's entire focal point is on the messianic prophecy, not whether or not Joseph finally got to have sex after the Savior was born unto the the world. In other words, it just means Joseph didn't have sexual intercourse with Mary during prior to Jesus's birth, just as in 2 Sam. 6:23 it's saying Michal didn't have other children prior to her death. The word "till" in itself doesn't indicate what occurred or didn't occur after a certain point. The only reason we know Michael didn't have children after her death is because she couldn't have children after her death. There's no detail in Matt. 1:25 to indicate what occurred between Joseph and Mary sexually after Jesus's birth, which isn't surprising, because again their sexual activity, or lack thereof, wasn't Matthew's focal point.
 
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Rella ~ I am a woman

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There's no word in the original language Koine Greek, nor in any of those English translations, that use the word "after" after the word "till." So, you shouldn't insert a word into a verse that isn't there, just because you think it's confusing as is. And, it's not confusing anyway, especially if we consider the context of Matt. 1:20-24, where Matthew is speaking about the long-awaited messianic prophecy finally coming to fruition, and Joseph accepting as his spouse the virgin who conceived the Savior of mankind by the Holy Spirit.

In Matt. 1:25, Matthew reiterates and reinforces that the Savior was truly begotten by the Holy Spirit, and born of the Virgin Mary, by stating that Joseph didn't have sexual intercourse with Her prior to Jesus's birth, to dispel any belief he was conceived by him, and not conceived by the Holy Spirit, and not born of a virgin. The author's entire focal point is on the messianic prophecy, not whether or not Joseph finally got to have sex after the Savior was born unto the the world. In other words, it just means Joseph didn't have sexual intercourse with Mary during prior to Jesus's birth, just as in 2 Sam. 6:23 it's saying Michal didn't have other children prior to her death. The word "till" in itself doesn't indicate what occurred or didn't occur after a certain point. The only reason we know Michael didn't have children after her death is because she couldn't have children after her death. There's no detail in Matt. 1:25 to indicate what occurred between Joseph and Mary sexually after Jesus's birth, which isn't surprising, because again their sexual activity, or lack thereof, wasn't Matthew's focal point.
I am repeating this yet again.....

I DID NOT INSERT THE WORD AFTER except in my Thanksgiving invite to you, which I followed up with a removal of that word.

YOU ARE THE ONE WHO SAYS FROM YOUR QUOTE ...

In Matt. 1:25, Matthew reiterates and reinforces that the Savior was truly begotten by the Holy Spirit, and born of the Virgin Mary, by stating that Joseph didn't have sexual intercourse with Her prior to Jesus's birth, to dispel any belief he was conceived by him, and not conceived by the Holy Spirit, and not born of a virgin. The author's entire focal point is on the messianic prophecy, not whether or not Joseph finally got to have sex after the Savior was born unto the the world. In other words, it just means Joseph didn't have sexual intercourse with Mary during prior to Jesus's birth, just as in 2 Sam. 6:23 it's saying Michal didn't have other children prior to her death. The word "till" in itself doesn't indicate what occurred or didn't occur after a certain point.

THIS IS ALL we have been trying to say. And knowing and admitting this it is wrong to insinuate Mary never knew Joseph and remained a virgin.


NOTHING SAYS THAT AND THE INSISTENCE THAT SHE DID IS JUST AS WRONG AS ADDING A WORD THAT WOULD SAID AFTER....
 

Sigma

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I am repeating this yet again.....

I DID NOT INSERT THE WORD AFTER except in my Thanksgiving invite to you, which I followed up with a removal of that word.

YOU ARE THE ONE WHO SAYS FROM YOUR QUOTE ...

In Matt. 1:25, Matthew reiterates and reinforces that the Savior was truly begotten by the Holy Spirit, and born of the Virgin Mary, by stating that Joseph didn't have sexual intercourse with Her prior to Jesus's birth, to dispel any belief he was conceived by him, and not conceived by the Holy Spirit, and not born of a virgin. The author's entire focal point is on the messianic prophecy, not whether or not Joseph finally got to have sex after the Savior was born unto the the world. In other words, it just means Joseph didn't have sexual intercourse with Mary during prior to Jesus's birth, just as in 2 Sam. 6:23 it's saying Michal didn't have other children prior to her death. The word "till" in itself doesn't indicate what occurred or didn't occur after a certain point.

THIS IS ALL we have been trying to say. And knowing and admitting this it is wrong to insinuate Mary never knew Joseph and remained a virgin.


NOTHING SAYS THAT AND THE INSISTENCE THAT SHE DID IS JUST AS WRONG AS ADDING A WORD THAT WOULD SAID AFTER....

Again, you and others interpret Matt. 1:25 as if it says "till after" but it doesn't, not in the original Koine Greek, nor in English. So, you shouldn't claim Matt. 1:25 indicates Joseph and Mary did have sexual intercourse after Jesus's birth when it doesn't, just as it doesn't indicate they didn't after Jesus's birth. It's for other reasons why we say that we know Mary is a perpetual Virgin.

If you consider the context of Matt. 1:20-24, where Matthew is speaking about the long-awaited messianic prophecy finally coming to fruition, and Joseph accepting as his spouse the virgin who conceived the Savior of mankind by the Holy Spirit. In Matt. 1:25, Matthew reiterates and reinforces that the Savior was truly begotten by the Holy Spirit, and born of the Virgin Mary, by stating that Joseph didn't have sexual intercourse with Her prior to Jesus's birth, to dispel any belief he was conceived by him, and not conceived by the Holy Spirit, and not born of a virgin. The author's entire focal point is on the messianic prophecy, not whether or not Joseph finally got to have sex after the Savior was born unto the the world. In other words, it just means Joseph didn't have sexual intercourse with Mary during prior to Jesus's birth, just as in 2 Sam. 6:23 it's saying Michal didn't have other children prior to her death. The word "till" in itself doesn't indicate what occurred or didn't occur after a certain point. The only reason we know Michael didn't have children after her death is because she couldn't have children after her death. There's no detail in Matt. 1:25 to indicate what occurred between Joseph and Mary sexually after Jesus's birth, which isn't surprising, because again their sexual activity, or lack thereof, wasn't Matthew's focal point.
 

Rella ~ I am a woman

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Again, you and others interpret Matt. 1:25 as if it says "till after" but it doesn't, not in the original Koine Greek, nor in English. So, you shouldn't claim Matt. 1:25 indicates Joseph and Mary did have sexual intercourse after Jesus's birth when it doesn't, just as it doesn't indicate they didn't after Jesus's birth. It's for other reasons why we say that we know Mary is a perpetual Virgin.

If you consider the context of Matt. 1:20-24, where Matthew is speaking about the long-awaited messianic prophecy finally coming to fruition, and Joseph accepting as his spouse the virgin who conceived the Savior of mankind by the Holy Spirit. In Matt. 1:25, Matthew reiterates and reinforces that the Savior was truly begotten by the Holy Spirit, and born of the Virgin Mary, by stating that Joseph didn't have sexual intercourse with Her prior to Jesus's birth, to dispel any belief he was conceived by him, and not conceived by the Holy Spirit, and not born of a virgin. The author's entire focal point is on the messianic prophecy, not whether or not Joseph finally got to have sex after the Savior was born unto the the world. In other words, it just means Joseph didn't have sexual intercourse with Mary during prior to Jesus's birth, just as in 2 Sam. 6:23 it's saying Michal didn't have other children prior to her death. The word "till" in itself doesn't indicate what occurred or didn't occur after a certain point. The only reason we know Michael didn't have children after her death is because she couldn't have children after her death. There's no detail in Matt. 1:25 to indicate what occurred between Joseph and Mary sexually after Jesus's birth, which isn't surprising, because again their sexual activity, or lack thereof, wasn't Matthew's focal point.
I do not care.

My final comment on this subject is I do hope Mary had a handmaiden.
 

Taken

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You should go read actual Catholic teaching.
Yes we are all well aware Catholics have a teaching protocol that all Catholic Teachers teach what the Church has determined is acceptable.

No doubt there are words and actions that serve duel purposes.

Bowing, Praying to, are express acts reserved for Worship and Requests unto the Lord God.
And the Statutes…expressly Not to Gods liking.

So in respect of WHAT God said and approved …

We turn to His Word…
1)
Lev 26:
[1] Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

2)
Isa 56:
[7] Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

3)
Matt 6:
[6] But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

4)
James 5:
[16] Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Gods House………a House of Prayer
No Statues…No bowing Down to Statues.
Pray……TO God the Father.
Pray……To the Father FOR others.
Pray ……TO the Father IN Jesus’ Name.

Lev 26:
[2] Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

It is very disturbing to SEE, statues of what is “supposedly” a likeness of Mary in Gods House of Prayer, being bowed down to, prayed to, kissed, trinkets offered to the statue, and in competition with the Reverence of Gods sanctuary. Even such a statue being elevated and paraded about the aisles of Gods sanctuary. Parishioners being specifically taught to PRAY TO Mary, for her intercession to speak to God on their behalf.

God GAVE mankind direction to PRAY TO Him. And gave mankind intercessory Name of His Son, in Keeping Reverent the Reverence of Gods sanctuary…WITHOUT bowing to statues.


John 16:
[16] Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

It’s a curious thing, Catholics are taught to place statues (supposedly of Mary’s likeness) in what is presumed (a building erected and dedicated to God as a House of Prayer unto God), bow dow to such statues (supposedly likenesses of Mary) pray TO her, to be an intercessory TO God, rather than Gods Son Jesus.
And further…the Rosary, counting beads of repetitive saying specific TO MARY, when a notice or admission of known wronging doing Is revealed…Again, Why is Mary being included in a prayer TO God?

Why is Jesus Not sufficient for intercession of an individuals Prayer TO God?
Why the Statues in direct Contrast to Gods Word?

Curious questions…
How does a Catholic respond?

TY
Glory to God,
Taken
 

David in NJ

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I do not care.

My final comment on this subject is I do hope Mary had a handmaiden.
@Sigma says: "In other words, it just means Joseph didn't have sexual intercourse with Mary during prior to Jesus's birth, just as in 2 Sam. 6:23 it's saying Michal didn't have other children prior to her death. The word "till" in itself doesn't indicate what occurred or didn't occur after a certain point."

VERY SILLY kindergarten material
 
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Rella ~ I am a woman

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QUESTION

Is the perpetual virginity of Mary biblical?


ANSWER

It is the official position of the Roman Catholic Church that Jesus’ mother Mary remained a virgin for her entire life. Is this concept biblical? Before we look at specific Scriptures, it is important to understand why the Roman Catholic Church believes in the perpetual virginity of Mary. The Roman Catholic Church views Mary as "the Mother of God" and "Queen of Heaven." Catholics believe Mary to have an exalted place in Heaven, with the closest access to Jesus and God the Father. Such a concept is nowhere taught in Scripture. Further, even if Mary did occupy such an exalted position, her having sexual intercourse would not have prevented her from gaining such a position. Sex in marriage is not sinful. Mary would have in no way defiled herself by having sexual relations with Joseph her husband. The entire concept of the perpetual virginity of Mary is based on an unbiblical teaching, Mary as Queen of Heaven, and on an unbiblical understanding of sex.

So, what does the Bible say about the perpetual virginity of Mary? Using the New American Bible, which is a Catholic translation, we can see that the perpetual virginity of Mary is not taught in the Bible. Matthew 1:25 NAB tells us, "He had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus." He, Joseph, did not have sexual relations with her, Mary, UNTIL after she bore a son, Jesus." The meaning of this Scripture is abundantly clear. Joseph and Mary did not have sexual relations until after Jesus was born. Matthew 13:55-56 NAB declares, "Is He not the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother named Mary and his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas? Are not His sisters all with us?" Catholics claim, correctly, that the Greek terms for "brothers" and "sisters" in these verses could also refer to male and female relatives, not necessarily literal brothers and sisters. However, the intended meaning is clear, they thought Jesus to be Joseph’s son, the son of Mary, and the brother of James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas, and the brother of the unnamed and unnumbered sisters. Father, mother, brother, sister. It is straining the meaning of the text to interpret “brothers” and “sisters” as "cousins" or "relatives" with the mentioning of Jesus’ mother and father.

Matthew 12:46 NAB tells us, "While He was still speaking to the crowds, His mother and His brothers appeared outside, wishing to speak with Him." See also Mark 3:31-34; Luke 8:19-21; John 2:12; and Acts 1:14. All mention Jesus’ mother with His brothers. If they were His cousins, or the sons of Joseph from a previous marriage, why were they mentioned with Mary so often? The idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary cannot be drawn from Scripture. It must be forced on Scripture, in contradiction to what the Scriptures clearly state.
 
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Cassandra

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  • God is not pleased with the worship of the queen of heaven .(Why do they call Mary the queen of heaven)

    • Jeremiah 7:16-20
      “Therefore do not pray for this people, nor lift up a cry or prayer for them, nor make intercession to Me; for I will not hear you. Do you not see what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger. Do they provoke Me to anger?” says the LORD. “Do they not provoke themselves, to the shame of their own faces?” Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: “Behold, My anger and My fury will be poured out on this place—on man and on beast, on the trees of the field and on the fruit of the ground. And it will burn and not be quenched.
  • Jeremiah 44:17-25
    But we will certainly do whatever has gone out of our own mouth, to burn incense to the queen of heaven and pour out drink offerings to her, as we have done, we and our fathers, our kings and our princes, in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. For then we had plenty of food, were well-off, and saw no trouble. But since we stopped burning incense to the queen of heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have lacked everything and have been consumed by the sword and by famine.” The women also said,“And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, did we make cakes for her, to worship her, and pour out drink offerings to her without our husbands’ permission?” Then Jeremiah spoke to all the people—the men, the women, and all the people who had given him that answer—saying: “The incense that you burned in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem, you and your fathers, your kings and your princes, and the people of the land, did not the LORD remember them, and did it not come into His mind? So the LORD could no longer bear it, because of the evil of your doings and because of the abominations which you committed. Therefore your land is a desolation, an astonishment, a curse, and without an inhabitant, as it is this day. Because you have burned incense and because you have sinned against the LORD, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD or walked in His law, in His statutes or in His testimonies, therefore this calamity has happened to you, as at this day.” Moreover Jeremiah said to all the people and to all the women, “Hear the word of the LORD, all Judah who are in the land of Egypt! Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saying: ‘You and your wives have spoken with your mouths and fulfilled with your hands, saying, “We will surely keep our vows that we have made, to burn incense to the queen of heaven and pour out drink offerings to her.” You will surely keep your vows and perform your vows!’
 
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