Homosexuality: Wrong or Right?

[Ghada]

I will be advocating for the side that homosexuality is inherently wrong, and the promotion of such actions and thoughts are evil. Similar or contrasting views are welcome and gladly accepted.

You can't do both.

Let us be in constant search for the truth during our discussion.

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination:

End of search.

 

[Ghada]

So says evil doers. Discrimination is necessary to stay on the right path.

The lexicon of words is hijacked by the morally irrelevant, who have no character.

Discrimination is the judgment necessary to determine right from wrong, that we may do good and live, and not do evil and die.

I would rather hang around a straight arrow with differing beliefs, than a bent arrow with mush for a spine.

For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

 

[Wrangler]

The lexicon of words is hijacked by the morally irrelevant, who have no character.

Discrimination is the judgment necessary to determine right from wrong, that we may do good and live, and not do evil and die.

Exactly!

The end game for all this word play is to get people to lose discernment, not merely of what is a man or a woman but the difference ultimately between right and wrong.

Their tactic is to falsely equate such discernment, such discrimination with prejudice. This explains why there is so much pressure to be "open minded," which necessarily means one has not reached a decision or conclusion. Such is the meaning of judgment. Once the facts are in and one has had time to give it due consideration, it is no longer pre-judging but judgment.

We all know the Bible says something about judgment. ;)

 

[TinMan]

Umm, no conservative Christian or non subscribes to Mein Kampf. That is more in line with your liberal ideology.

well Mein Kampf attributes both crime and poverty in large cities on the presence of foreigners and nonaryans. Specifically their disregard for tradition and authority and how they engage in crime, both theft and violence.

Mein Kampf attributes moral decay to foreigners and nonaryans and homosexuals and their rejection of the traditional family structure.

Mein Kampf criticizes the press as a tool of the liberal elite that produces propaganda and false information to the masses in order to control the people.

Popular opinion cannot be trusted to be reflective of anything but of the views of liberals as they manipulate the poling and methods of gathering popular opinion.

Good aryian citizens need to arm themselves with guns to protect their families and their way of life from foreigners and nonaryans

The educational system corrupts children teaching them immorality.

A nation can only prosper if it adapts Christian values.

It was a mistake to allow foreigners and nonaryians to be given the power to vote as they vote against the interests of a strong government.



Any of this sounding familiar?

 

[TinMan]

Just because same sex couples raise children doesn't make it a healthy environment for the children. It is not healthy, but a harmful and confusing environment for those poor innocent children.

any evidence to back that up?

 

[TinMan]

Can I get an invite to your daughter's or granddaughters wedding to Sam Brinton

View attachment 36743
Or


Rachel/Richard Levin (One of PAs finest) and choses by Biden.

View attachment 36744

Well my daughter is only a few months old but hope when she grows she will be wise enough to judge people on their merits not their appearance.

 

[TinMan]

Did someone give you that advice?
Because I did not advise such nonsense.

did you read your own post?

 

[TinMan]

So says evil doers. Discrimination is necessary to stay on the right path.

Both necessary and the right path

 

[Scott Downey]

There are actually gay churches filled with people heading for Hell.

Not the self same Spirit of God at work in those false believers. Justifying themselves and continuing unrepentant sins shows they do not have the Spirit of God, they follow a false Christ. Jesus warned us there would be many false christs coming. The words of satan sound good sometimes. The words spoken in those places may also seem good, but the spirit behind the words is evil.

 

[Scott Downey]

People who worshipped in vain end up in hell.


Matthew 15:9
And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

 

[Scott Downey]

People who believed in vain end up in hell.

1 Corinthians 15:1-3

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

 

[Scott Downey]

In vain do they worship Christ! This also was a worry of Paul the apostle. That preaching and believing was in vain, as in useless, a waste of time, not resulting in salvation and approval from God, but only condemnation and hell.

1. Galatians 2:2
   And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Galatians 2:21
   I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. Galatians 3:4
   Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
4. Galatians 4:11
   I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
5. Philippians 2:16
   holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain.
6. 1 Thessalonians 3:5
   For this reason, when I could no longer endure it, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter had tempted you, and our labor might be in vain.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

[CadyandZoe]

that is your opinion and not one shared. the genes linked to homosexuality are known to increase fertility in women.

I don't think you meant to say "homosexuality," which is a practice. I think you meant to say that there are genes linked to "orientation" instead. That is, I believe you want to argue that since human beings are born with a particular orientation, it isn't wrong for a person to put that orientation into practice.

I have argued that homosexuality is wrong because it violates the created order. You claim homosexuality does not violate the created order because some people have a genetic disposition toward it and for this reason, those who seek fulfillment and human flourishing should be allowed to express that disposition through practice.

We can find an example of this in everyday life. Some would argue that left-handedness is a genetic trait. Suppose a boy is left-handed. Some fathers believe the boy would lead a better life if he discouraged his son from left-hand dominance and encouraged him toward right-hand dominance. He teaches his son to throw with his right hand, to pitch with his right hand, and to catch right-handed.

A father enrolls his son in Little League where the boy performs exceptionally well and strives to impress his coach. One day, the coach learns that the boy is left-hand dominant and encourages him to pitch left-handed as the team requires a lefty. The boy excels as a left-handed pitcher and gains recognition for his skills. Thus, it is perfectly acceptable and even recommended to allow a left-handed boy to pitch left-handed. And, you might say, just as it is acceptable for a left-hand dominant boy to pitch left-handed, it is also acceptable for a same-sex-oriented person to pair up with the same sex.

I understand the argument, which is why I am able to provisionally accept your premise and make your argument for you.

The following is my rebuttal to the argument I just made (I'm not saying that you made the argument above. I don't want to put words in your mouth.)

Questions:
1. Is it appropriate to allow every genetic disposition to be expressed?
2. Is it ever appropriate to discriminate against those with a particular genetic disposition?

Consider the case of hemophilia. Most people who have hemophilia are born with it. It is almost always inherited (passed down) from a parent to a child.

Is Hemophilia bad?
Hemophilia can result in: Bleeding within joints that can lead to chronic joint disease and pain. Bleeding in the head and sometimes in the brain which can cause long term problems, such as seizures and paralysis. Death can occur if the bleeding cannot be stopped or if it occurs in a vital organ such as the brain. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention

What activities might be dangerous to a hemophiliac?
The National Hemophilia Foundation rates sports, such as football and lacrosse, as high risk. But others, such as swimming, golf and baseball, are rated as low or moderate risk.

Question:
Is it appropriate to allow hemophilia to be expressed?

Answer:
Obviously no. If Hemophilia is allowed to be expressed the patient will bleed to death. Should a parent allow the child to give full expression to his or her genetic disposition? Never.

Question:
Is it ever appropriate to discriminate against those with hemophilia?
Yes, hemophiliacs must be treated differently than other people because treating them the same as other people will possibly lead to death. A parent does wrong to allow a hemophiliac child to play football or lacrosse which are high-risk behaviors.

The larger point here is simple. It does not follow, in each and every case, that a person with a particular genetic disposition should be allowed to give expression to that genetic disposition.

I would argue that the oughtness of a situation does not necessarily depend on biological factors. Even if I agree with the premise that people have a same-sex-orientation gene, I still believe that it is wrong for a person to have same-sex intercourse. Such people who might have such a disposition would do well to remain celibate. And it is morally wrong to practice homosexuality, whether or not someone is genetically predisposed.

 

[Wrangler]

Both necessary and the right path

Do you know that more Blacks enslaved Whites than the other way around?

Pathetic fallacy equating bad behavior with race hatred.

 

[Scott Downey]

Homosexuality is a sexual perversion condemned by God.
God also condemns sin in the flesh of all types of sins, not just homosexuality.
That sin though Paul says is personal, affecting your body. making it especially noteworthy to be avoided.
The body of a believer is God's temple (habitation) and you will not join that body with a harlot or commit sexual perversions of any kind.
God won't allow sin to go unpunished, and since it affects the temple of God inside you, it is said God will destroy whatever destroys that temple.
You will suffer for it and not just in the afterlife.

15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.” 17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body [g]and in your spirit, which are God’s.

2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people.”

1 Corinthians 3:17
16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

 

[Scott Downey]

Romans 8 fits well with this thread.

If you live according to the flesh you will die. But if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

How many of you can concur with that.
Everyone should examine themself to see if they are truly in the faith.

===================================================================


There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who[a] do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be [b]carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the [c]carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies [d]through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Sonship Through the Spirit​

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba,[e] Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

From Suffering to Glory​

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of [f]corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession [g]for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

God’s Everlasting Love​

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:

“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”
37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[CadyandZoe]

racist and homophobic reasonings for their beliefs are pretty much identical.

I'm not sure I agree with your generalization. I wouldn't put racism and homophobia in the same category. But I can see why others might. I hope we can agree, however, that reason is preferable over emotionalism. Essentially, we evaluate the veracity of a truth claim based on the argument itself, not on the character of the person making the argument.

My earlier point was this. An individual makes an argument by giving us his or her reasons why an action or an idea is right or wrong. Either the argument is sound and valid or it isn't. We evaluate the argument according to reason and sound principles. The argument is either true or fallacious.

There are a dozen ways in which an argument may be fallacious. One of these is "ad hominem" (speaking "to the man") attack on the argument, which seeks to discredit the man, rather than dispute his facts or his reasons. You do this often, suggesting that our reasons against homosexuality are based on homophobia or racism. You attack the man (or woman) rather than his ideas.

You compare us to the KKK, White supremacists, and other disfavored groups in an effort to attack our character and to discredit us in an effort to assign guilt by association (not that any of us are associated with such groups but only because of your false accusations are we being associated with such groups.)

Anyone with even a small amount of a capacity to reason can tell you that none of thee things are discrimination.

You don't understand that our society practices age discrimination and for good reason? Hmm. I wonder.

Do you know why gay couples fought for the right to be married? In truth, gay couples were already allowed to be married. What did they want? What did they really want? Gay couples wanted the same social-governmental benefits that straight couples are granted to married people.

In short, the law discriminates against single people in favor of married people. For one, a spouse is allowed to visit the other spouse in the hospital. Until the government officially recognized gay marriage, a gay husband was not allowed to visit his gay wife in the hospital. Not only this but being married affords many other social benefits not afforded to single people: Tax breaks; Social Security benefits, Obtaining credit, Insurance savings, Access to benefits, Individual retirement account contributions, and Sharing costs. I'm certain that I am forgetting other things also.

The government practices all sorts of discrimination.

According to who?

According to gays. What have gays always wanted if not, approval from parents, approval from teachers, approval from society? I'm generalizing of course. But this has always been the case. LGBT people have always wanted to feel comfortable with self-disclosure of their sexual orientation.

Have you heard of "Gay pride"? It's inspired by the phrase "I'm Black and I'm Proud" from the Black Power movement. Essentially, Black pride is a way for Black people to counter the shame and embarrassment that they often feel from non-Black people. It's a way for Black people to encourage and support each other in feeling proud of their heritage. Nowadays, there's a growing trend toward "white shame". This is when people who can't shake off their feelings of shame and embarrassment about their race start to resent those who don't feel the same way.

Gay pride parades are nothing more but nothing less than a public service announcement designed to encourage gay people to shed their embarrassment for being gay. The message is clear, gay people feel embarrassed for being gay, which is why they need to be encouraged to openly and publicly express "gay-ness."

Anyone who is awake can see the clear implications of the messages projected by the movement.

you can think any sick and hateful thing about gays or blacks or Jews or the handicaped. But your right to act on your opinions ends when it interferes with the rights of other people.

Who said anything about saying hateful things or taking hateful action? The only person I know who is talking about that is You.

Normal isn't a virtue. it just indicates a lack of courage.

That is sophistry. We all know what we mean by "normal."

 

[Scott Downey]

Participants in gay pride parades also openly flaunt to all who watch, demonstrate their homosexuality and other sexual perversions, both actual and implied with some clothes on, sometimes a lot of nakedness too. I tend to think also of this verse in Jude about foaming up their shame.

13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever

 

[Scott Downey]

Old and New Apostates​

5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their [c]proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;

7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the [d]vengeance of eternal fire.

 

[TinMan]

Do you know that more Blacks enslaved Whites than the other way around?

Pathetic fallacy equating bad behavior with race hatred.

wow...just when i thought you couldn't stoop any lower, here you are defending lynching.