Were the brothers in Matthew 13:55 Mary's sons?

[BeyondET]

A dude chick? No, again, I'm a female. So, rather than check to see if my gender is shown, or even ask, you chose just to be lazy and assume I'm a male. Got it.

I'll tell you what, from now on I will just say themselves, so that no one gets their feelings hurt over it

 

[Sigma]

Your avatar and the heading when you post doesn't have anything about your gender. It's not lazy I'm not going to the hassle of looking up everybody's profile who post to see what gender they are that's ridiculous.

You need to be not so offended by such a small thing, don't sweat the small stuff good grief. I'll tell you what, from now on I will just say themselves, so that no one gets their feelings hurt over it

Yea I know you didn't check my profile for gender, nor asked for it, but rather just assumed I'm a male. So, I informed you I'm a female, then you called me a "dude chick" whatever that means, so I had to inform you again that I'm a female. How is my informing you taking offense and feeling hurt?

Post a English Bible translation of the Greek Koine instead of dictionary quotes.

Do you think the Koine Greek words have their definitions and the English translation of those Koine Greek words have their own definitions???

As you said in multiple post it could be considered isn't proof.

Huh? Say again. What you were trying to say didn't come out clear.

 

[BeyondET]

Yea I know you didn't check my profile for gender, nor asked for it, but rather just assumed I'm a male. So, I informed you I'm a female, then you called me a "dude chick" whatever that means, so I had to inform you again that I'm a female. How is my informing you taking offense and feeling hurt?



Do you think the Koine Greek words have their definitions and the English translation of those Koine Greek words have their own definitions??

I left out the "or" between dude and chick I apologize. It bothered you enough to point it out, so I apologize not using a neutral stance as in themselves.

The translators chose the proper wording to illustrate which definition it should be.

Since none have His brothers or sisters as cousins, it's highly likely they all chose the correct definition.

 

[Sigma]

It bothered you enough to point it out...

I came across a post where you referred to me as a male. So, I informed you I'm a female, then you called me a "dude chick" (you clarified in last post you left out "or"), so I informed you again that I'm a female. How was my informing you of my actual gender "taking offense", "feeling hurt", and being "bothered"?

The translators chose the proper wording to illustrate which definition it should be. Since none have His brothers or sisters as cousins, it's highly likely they all chose the correct definition.

So, you do think the Koine Greek words have their definitions and the English translation of those Koine Greek words have their own definitions? Yes or no?

As you said in multiple post it could be considered isn't proof.

Huh? Say again.

 

[BeyondET]

Why does my merely informing you again that I'm a female after you called me "dude chick" mean I was bothered by it?



So, you do think the Koine Greek words have their definitions and the English translation of those Koine Greek words have their own definitions??? Yes or no?

I explained to you that I left out the OR between dude and chick.

You're bothered you can't stop harping about it like right now.

What I said about left out the or went right through one ear and out the other.

What matters is why all the English translations used brother or sister instead of cousins. It's because cousins isn't right translation for the context.

 

[Sigma]

I explain to you that I left out the OR between dude and chick.

You're bothered you can't stop harping about it like right now.

Before you even replied with that I had already edited in "(you clarified in last post you left out "or"). Again, how was my informing you of my actual gender "taking offense", "feeling hurt", and being "bothered"?

What matters is why all the English translations used brother or sister instead of cousins. It's because cousins isn't right translation for the context.

The translating of words from an original language isn't chiefly based on context, but the actual definition of those original words, and their accurate substitute into the new language. The context follows this in order to understand how that particular word and which of its definitions is being used.

The literal English translation of the Koine Greek word "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) is "brother", but just like the English word "brother", "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) has multiple definitions, one of them being "a near kinsman, or relative", and a kinsman/relative can be a sibling, cousin, nephew, uncle, etc. Regarding the New Testament, you err in applying a definition of the English word "brother" to the Koine Greek word "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) that it doesn't share, which is "sibling", at least not directly since "sibling" is a type of kinsman/relative.

When reading a verse where the word "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) is used, and you believe its definition "a near kinsman, or relative" applies, you can't just assume any type of kinsman/relative, e.g., sibling, cousin, nephew, uncle, etc., applies. You have to show why said definition and which type of kinsman/relative applies in it.

 

[Illuminator]

I explained to you that I left out the OR between dude and chick.

You're bothered you can't stop harping about it like right now.

What I said about left out the or went right through one ear and out the other.

What matters is why all the English translations used brother or sister instead of cousins. It's because cousins isn't right translation for the context.

Bill Mounce's Greek Dictionary is written by a respected Protestant scholar that you claim has a Catholic bias. Does Strong's concordance also have a Catholic bias? Sigma keeps flooding you with objective non-Catholic sources generally accepted by everyone and you don't like it. English didn't exist until centuries after the Bible was finalized, so your demand for English translations is absurd. Try citing Webster's dictionary for "brother" and "until", which you haven't done, but repeatedly demand English translations.

 

[BeyondET]

Bill Mounce's Greek Dictionary is written by a respected Protestant scholar that you claim has a Catholic bias. Does Strong's concordance also have a Catholic bias? Sigma keeps flooding you with objective non-Catholic sources generally accepted by everyone and you don't like it. English didn't exist until centuries after the Bible was finalized, so your demand for English translations is absurd. Try citing Webster's dictionary for "brother" and "until", which you haven't done, but repeatedly demand English translations.

I don't have to look in a dictionary.

Here's the most accurate English translation of the original Greek Septuagint. The Lexham English Bible the only one known to directly translate the original Septuagint.

it doesn't use cousin or relative but bother and sisters in verse 55/56. Because the Greek understanding was siblings not cousins or kinsman etc.

And all His sisters means more than two because it would of been just sisters and not all of them.

Matthew 13 LEB;NIV - The Parable of the Sower - On that day - Bible Gateway

The Parable of the Sower - On that day Jesus went out of the house and was sitting by the sea. And large crowds gathered close around him, so that he

www.biblegateway.com

55 Is not this one the son of the carpenter? Is not his mother called Mary and his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 And are not all his sisters with us? From where then did this man get all these things?”

 

[Sigma]

I don't have to look in a dictionary, find ih

Here's the most accurate English translation of the original Greek Septuagint. The Lexham English Bible the only one known to directly translate the original Septuagint.

it doesn't use cousin or relative but bother and sisters in verse 55/56. Because the original concept was siblings not cousins or kinsman etc.

Matthew 13 LEB;NIV - The Parable of the Sower - On that day - Bible Gateway

The Parable of the Sower - On that day Jesus went out of the house and was sitting by the sea. And large crowds gathered close around him, so that he

www.biblegateway.com

55 Is not this one the son of the carpenter? Is not his mother called Mary and his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 And are not all his sisters with us? From where then did this man get all these things?”

The translating of words from an original language isn't chiefly based on context, but the actual definition of those original words, and their accurate substitute into the new language. The context follows this in order to understand how that particular word and which of its definitions is being used.

The literal English translation of the Koine Greek word "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) is "brother", but just like the English word "brother", "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) has multiple definitions, one of them being "a near kinsman, or relative", and a kinsman/relative can be a sibling, cousin, nephew, uncle, etc. Regarding the New Testament, you err in applying a definition of the English word "brother" to the Koine Greek word "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) that it doesn't share, which is "sibling", at least not directly since "sibling" is a type of kinsman/relative.

When reading a verse where the word "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) is used, and you believe its definition "a near kinsman, or relative" applies, you can't just assume any type of kinsman/relative, e.g., sibling, cousin, nephew, uncle, etc., applies. You have to show why said definition and which type of kinsman/relative applies in it.

 

[BeyondET]

When reading a verse where the word "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) is used, and you believe its definition "a near kinsman, or relative" applies, you can't just assume any type of kinsman/relative, e.g., sibling, cousin, nephew, uncle, etc., applies. You have to show why said definition and which type of kinsman/relative applies in it.

And the Lexham English Bible has done that. I don't need other definitions for brothers and sisters. I know what that means and I don't need another language to tell me that.

 

[Sigma]

I don't need other definitions for brothers and sisters. I know what that means...

The literal English translation of the Koine Greek word "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) is "brother", but just like the English word "brother", "ἀδελφός" has multiple definitions, one of them being "a near kinsman, or relative", and a kinsman/relative can be a sibling, cousin, nephew, or uncle, etc.

If you knew that, you wouldn't be erring by applying a definition of the English word "brother" to the Koine Greek word "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) that it doesn't share, which is "sibling", at least not directly since "sibling" is a type of kinsman/relative.

 

[BeyondET]

The literal English translation of the Koine Greek word "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) is "brother", but just like the English word "brother", "ἀδελφός" has multiple definitions, one of them being "a near kinsman, or relative",

and a kinsman/relative can be a sibling, cousin, nephew, or uncle, etc.

If you knew that, you wouldn't be erring by applying a definition of the English word "brother" to the Koine Greek word "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) that it doesn't share, which is "sibling", at least not directly since "sibling" is a type of kinsman/relative.

It can be either sibling,cousin,nephew,uncle etc.

You have to stick with cousin because if you dont your doctrine of a virgin Mary would change that's why you remain bias. And your not willing to consider anything other than cousin for that exact reason.

 

[Illuminator]

It can be either sibling,cousin,nephew,uncle etc.

You have to stick with cousin because if you dont your doctrine of a virgin Mary would change that's why you remain bias. And your not willing to consider anything other than cousin for that exact reason.

The LEB is designed from the beginning to make extensive use of the most up-to-date lexical reference works available. For the Old Testament this is primarily The Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament (HALOT), and for the New Testament this is primarily the third edition of Walter Bauer's A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG). Users can be assured that the LEB as a translation is based on the best scholarly research available. The Hebrew text on which the LEB Old Testament is based is that of Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia. The Greek text on which the LEB New Testament is based is that of The Greek New Testament: SBL Edition (SBLGNT), a new edition produced by Michael W. Holmes in conjunction with the Society of Biblical Literature and Logos Bible Software. In its evaluation of textual variation, the SBLGNT uses modern text-critical methodology along with guidance from the most recently available articles, monographs, and technical commentaries to establish the text of the Greek New Testament.

The LEB lists "brother" 324 times in the NT. I don't see how it could possibly mean biological brothers each time without being absurd. LEB:

• New Testament (324)
• Matthew (31)
• Mark (17)
• Luke (20)
• John (15)
• Acts (56)
• Romans (19)
• 1 Corinthians (35)
• 2 Corinthians (13)
• Galatians (12)
• Ephesians (2)
• Philippians (9)
• Colossians (5)
• 1 Thessalonians (19)
• 2 Thessalonians (8)
• 1 Timothy (3)
• 2 Timothy (1)
• Philemon (4)
• Hebrews (11)
• James (17)
• 1 Peter (2)
• 2 Peter (3)
• 1 John (13)
• 3 John (3)
• Jude (1)
• Revelation (5)

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: brother

www.biblegateway.com

Luke 1:36 – Elizabeth is Mary’s kinswoman. Some Bibles translate kinswoman as “cousin,” but this is an improper translation because in Hebrew and Aramaic, there is no word for “cousin.”

Luke 22:32 – Jesus tells Peter to strengthen his “brethren.” In this case, we clearly see Jesus using “brethren” to refer to the other apostles, not his biological brothers.

Luke 22:32 (LEB)
but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail. And you, when once you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”

Acts 1:12-15 – the gathering of Jesus’ “brothers” amounts to about 120. That is a lot of “brothers.” Brother means kinsmen in Hebrew, or Mary had to be pregnant for 90 consecutive years.

Acts 7:26; 11:1; 13:15,38; 15:3,23,32; 28:17,21 – these are some of many other examples where “brethren” does not mean blood relations.

Rom. 9:3 (LEB)
For I could wish myself to be accursed from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my fellow countrymen according to the flesh,
– Paul uses “brethren” and “my fellow countrymen” interchangeably. “Brothers” of Jesus does not prove Mary had other children.

Gen. 11:26-28 – Lot is Abraham’s nephew (“anepsios”) / Gen. 13:8; 14:14,16 – Lot is still called Abraham’s brother (adelphos”) . This proves that, although a Greek word for cousin is “anepsios,” Scripture also uses “adelphos” to describe a cousin.

Gen. 29:15 – Laban calls Jacob his “brother” even though Jacob is his nephew. Again, this proves that brother means kinsmen or cousin.

Deut. 23:7; 1 Chron. 15:5-18; Jer. 34:9; Neh. 5:7 -“brethren” means kinsmen. Hebrew and Aramaic have no word for “cousin.”

2 Sam. 1:26; 1 Kings 9:13, 20:32 – here we see that “brethren” can even be one who is unrelated (no bloodline), such as a friend.

2 Kings 10:13-14 – King Ahaziah’s 42 “brethren” were really his kinsmen.

1 Chron. 23:21-22 – Eleazar’s daughters married their “brethren” who were really their cousins.

Neh. 4:14; 5:1,5,8,10,14 – these are more examples of “brothers” meaning “cousins” or “kinsmen.”

I think your understanding of the LEB is incorrect.

 

[Sigma]

It can be either sibling,cousin,nephew,uncle etc.

It's good you finally accept that "a near kinsman, or relative" and not directly "sibling", or any other type of kinsman/relative, is one of the actual definitions of the Koine Greek word "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi), or "brother" in English.

Do you believe Jesus's brother James in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and Gal. 19 were the same person?

You have to stick with cousin because if you dont your doctrine of a virgin Mary would change that's why you remain bias. And your not willing to consider anything other than cousin for that exact reason.

Do you consider the same could be said of you?: "You have to stick with sibling because if you don't your doctrine of Mary would change, and that's why you remain bias, and unwilling to consider anything other than sibling for that exact reason". Perhaps you're projecting your fears onto me? And, I've noted before, my proving Jesus's brothers Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were His cousins in itself doesn't prove the perpetual Virginity of Mary, though there are reasons that show She is.

 

[BeyondET]

It's good you finally accept that "a near kinsman, or relative" and not directly "sibling", or any other type of kinsman/relative, is one of the actual definitions of the Koine Greek word "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi), or "brother" in English.

Do you believe Jesus's brother James in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and Gal. 19 were the same person?



Do you consider the same could be said of you?: "You have to stick with sibling because if you don't your doctrine of Mary would change, and that's why you remain bias, and unwilling to consider anything other than sibling for that exact reason". Perhaps you're projecting your fears onto me? And, I've noted before, my proving Jesus's brothers Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were His cousins in itself doesn't prove the perpetual Virginity of Mary, though there are reasons that show She is.

You have to chose cousin and not siblings. Because the always a virgin Mary concept would go right our the window. You can't or refuse to open the window.

 

[Sigma]

You have to chose cousin and not siblings. Because the always a virgin Mary concept would go right our the window. You can't or refuse to open the window.

I don't have to choose cousin, or any other type of kinsman/relative, because, again, my having proven Jesus's brothers Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were His cousins in itself doesn't prove the perpetual Virginity of Mary, though there are reasons that show She is.

Do you believe Jesus's brother James in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and Gal. 19 were the same person?

 

[BeyondET]

but this is an improper translation because in Hebrew and Aramaic, there is no word for “cousin.”

Wrong totally, and that's why your trying to defend the ever virgin Mary concept and resort to false statements and saying there's no Hebrew word for cousin.

 

[Sigma]

Wrong totally, and that's why your trying to defend the ever virgin Mary concept and resort to false statements and saying there's no Hebrew word for cousin.

Those terms “ben dod" בן דוד, meaning “son of uncle", and “bat doda" בת דודה, meaning “daughter of aunt”, are modern Hebrew terms. In ancient Hebrew, there was no word specifically for "cousin", for example.

That's why in the Septuagint—the earliest extant Greek translation of the Old Testament from the original Hebrew—the translators, for example, substituted the Hebrew words "אחים" ('âchiem) in Gen. 13:8 with the Koine Greek equivalent "ἀδελφοί" (sing. ἀδελφός adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) and "אָח" ('âch) in Gen 14:14 with the Koine Greek equivalent "ἀδελφός" (sing. ἀδελφός adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) to show kinship between Abraham and Lot, which lineage shows were that of uncle and nephew: "εἶπεν δὲ Αβραμ τῷ Λωτ Μὴ ἔστω μάχη ἀνὰ μέσον ἐμοῦ καὶ σοῦ καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τῶν ποιμένων μου καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τῶν ποιμένων σου. ὅτι ἄνθρωποι ἀδελφοὶ ἡμεῖς ἐσμεν." (Gen. 13:8) and "ἀκούσας δὲ Αβραμ ὅτι ᾐχμαλώτευται Λωτ ὁ ἀδελφὸς αὐτοῦ, ἠρίθμησεν τοὺς ἰδίους οἰκογενεῖς αὐτοῦ, τριακοσίους δέκα καὶ ὀκτώ, καὶ κατεδίωξεν ὀπίσω αὐτῶν ἕως Δαν." (Gen. 14:14)

The Septuagint translators substituted the Hebrew word "אָח" ('âch) in Gen. 29:15 with the Koine Greek equivalent "ἀδελφός" (sing. ἀδελφός adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) to show kinship between Jacob and Laban, which lineage shows were that of uncle and nephew: "Εἶπε δὲ Λάβαν τῷ ᾿Ιακώβ· ὅτι γὰρ ἀδελφός μου εἶ, οὐ δουλεύσεις μοι δωρεάν· ἀπάγγειλόν μοι, τίς ὁ μισθός σου ἐστί;" (Gen. 29:15

The Septuagint translators substituted the Hebrew word "אחים" ('âchiem) in 1 Chr. 23:21–22 with the Koine Greek equivalent "ἀδελφοί" (sing. ἀδελφός adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) to show it was kin the daughters of Eleazar married, which lineage shows was their cousins: "καὶ ἀπέθανεν Ελεαζαρ, καὶ οὐκ ἦσαν αὐτῷ υἱοὶ ἀλλ᾽ ἢ θυγατέρες, καὶ ἔλαβον αὐτὰς υἱοὶ Κις ἀδελφοὶ αὐτῶν." (1 Chr. 23:22)

The verses you cite from the NT use the Koine Greek words "ἀδελφός" (sing. ἀδελφός adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) and "αδελφαι" (sing. αδελφαι adelphē; pl. αδελφαι adelphai), translated to "brother" and "sister" in English, and these words have multiple definitions, e.g., "fellow-countryman", "disciple/follower", "one of the same faith", and "a near kinsman, or relative", etc. A kinsman/kinswoman/relative can be a sibling, cousin, nephew, niece, uncle, or aunt, etc.

 

[BeyondET]

I don't have to choose cousin, or any other type of kinsman/relative, because, again, my having proven Jesus's brothers Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were His cousins in itself doesn't prove the perpetual Virginity of Mary, though there are reasons that show She is.

Do you believe Jesus's brother James in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and Gal. 19 were the same person?

Anepsios in Greek means cousin and it was never used to describe Jesus brothers or sisters.


According to context, the Greek plural noun ἀδελφοί (adelphoi), from a- ('same') and delphys ('womb'),[1] may mean physical brothers, physical brothers and sisters, figurative brothers, or figurative brothers and sisters.[6] Adelphoi sometimes means more than a blood brother, e.g., Gen 29:12; Rom 9:3 (kinsman); Matt 5:22-23 (neighbor); Mark 6:17-18 (step-brother). In such instances the context must determine the meaning.[7] Adelphoi is distinct from anepsios, meaning cousin, nephew, niece, and this word is never used to describe James and the other siblings of Jesus.[8]

Although neither Hebrew nor Aramaic had a word for "cousin", both customarily spoke of a cousin as a "son of an uncle" (Heb. ben dod; Aram. bar dad)[7] and the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament, never translates either expression as "brother" or "sister".[7]

 

[BeyondET]

Those terms “ben dod" בן דוד, meaning “son of uncle", and “bat doda" בת דודה, meaning “daughter of aunt”, are modern Hebrew terms. In ancient Hebrew, there was no word specifically for "cousin", for example.

Hebrew language lots of times use two words for one meaning.

English doesn't have that thus cousin.