Homosexuality: Wrong or Right?

[Arthur81]

Orientation is not the point of this thread. All sinners have orientation to all kinds of sin. Rapists and murderers have orientation. Doesn't make raping and murdering right.

"Orientation" is not some kind of get out of jail free card.

Is a man's orientation to be attracted to and love women a sin? Of course not! It is no more a sin for a man whose orientation is to be attracted to and love another man. NO ONE chooses their sexual orientation, who they by nature are attracted to and love. Since none of us choose our sexual orientation, I wonder who did?

"Who do you think you are to answer God back? Can the pot say to the potter, ‘Why did you make me like this?’? Surely the potter can do what he likes with the clay. Is he not free to make two vessels out of the same lump, one to be treasured, the other for common use?" (Rom 9:20-21 REB)

God did not tell us how the process is that he makes 95-98% of men straight and 2-5% of men gay and I do not know if there is a need to know. It is not chosen nor is it changeable. Only how it is acted out is there human responsibility. The percentages I've given seem to be the closest out of the wide range of percentage claims made. It surely is NOT 10% as the LGBTQ bunch claim. It seems too many young people today can't even decide if they are male or female and only decide this by social and peer pressure by a godless society.

 

[TLHKAJ]

Yes, of course, people choose their orientation.

Because of the fallen world we live in, sin has caused people to be born with hormones out of whack, with no identifiable genitalia, or even genitalia of both sexes. DNA testing is the only way to tell someone's true gender in cases like that. And sometimes, bc of a multitude of issues, a person is attracted to the same sex ....it can happen because of neglect, sexual trauma, or sin passed down and visited upon the children to the third and fourth generation. Satan is very good at tricking people who truly believe they are gay/lesbian. And many who come to Christ will choose celibacy, some have even been healed/delivered of the same sex attraction. I have heard so many testimonies of this very thing.

 

[David in NJ]

Since you are so certain of your belief, I know you must for certain know how to explain why David compared the love of Jonathan to "the love of women" rather than to the love of brother, mother, father or wife? Explain that to us!

Then tell us why Jerome added the fake sense about a mother's love into that verse? Why would he have done that when there is not manuscript evidence for it?

Also, you will then of course explain why some Hebrew-English Interlinear OT Bibles include the gender indicator of "she" so it would read -

"And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan SHE was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul." (1Sam 18:1 KJV)

The other two times the Hebrew qashar is used combined with "she" it is with two females. Many times in the OT qashar is connected with "HE" and it is with males. Now, I know you can explain that away for us, right?

You cannot explain it but you keep repeating a homophobic viewpoint that is unfounded in scripture.

You asked: "Since you are so certain of your belief, I know you must for certain know how to explain why David compared the love of Jonathan to "the love of women" rather than to the love of brother, mother, father or wife? Explain that to us!"

That is a rather easy thing to explain (which i did in my post)

First let us examine what the dynamics were in David & Jonathan's lives.

#1 - Women were not equal to men. They had a clear submissive role and were not in combat, side by side, with David.

#2 - Men form strong bonds in warfare = even deep platonic love for each other that can exceed the love for a mom, dad and wife.

#3 - David clearly separates the sexual love of a woman for the rare and deep platonic love/bond that forms when your life, which was in constant danger, is supported and loved by another man who spiritually bonds with you and your cause/fight.

 

[David in NJ]

Because of the fallen world we live in, sin has caused people to be born with hormones out of whack, with no identifiable genitalia, or even genitalia of both sexes. DNA testing is the only way to tell someone's true gender in cases like that. And sometimes, bc of a multitude of issues, a person is attracted to the same sex ....it can happen because of neglect, sexual trauma, or son passed down and visited upon the children to the third and fourth generation. Satan is very good at tricking people who truly believe they are gay/lesbian. And many who come to Christ will choose celibacy, some have even been healed/delivered of the same sex attraction. I have heard so many testimonies of this very thing.

i am glad you brought this up.

People do not realize how we arrived where we are at today = not realizing the unfortunate implications of satan/sin at the genetic level.

The chemicals that have been dumped in our water system, earth/soil, air and food products have been having profound negative impacts on our physical biological health = 'hormones' and more

 

[TLHKAJ]

i am glad you brought this up.

People do not realize how we arrived where we are at today = not realizing the unfortunate implications of satan/sin at the genetic level.

The chemicals that have been dumped in our water system, earth/soil, air and food products have been having profound negative impacts on our physical biological health = 'hormones' and more

Confusion comes in so many ways. I was born into severe abuse (satanic ritual abuse & MK Ultra) and that involved sexual abuse, traumas, tortures by mostly men, but also women. I was surrounded by abusers all my life and no one was safe.

When I was saved at age 13, I allowed some of my walls down even the tiniest bit and it was a nightmare. My body interpreted any physical closeness or touch as sexual. And I knew I wasn't lesbian. As broken as I was, I always wanted to be a wife and mother and rescue all the abandoned and abused babies in the world (even typing it brings me to tears). But my body didn't know how to interpret a simple hug from a woman in the church. I could have fallen for satan's lies, but God helped me cling to the truth even as a 13 and 14 year old. My body finally learned the difference. It wasn't until I was in my early 30's that I began to have trauma memories flooding back and as I worked through those with the Lord, I understood where the lies were rooted.

 

[TLHKAJ]

You asked: "Since you are so certain of your belief, I know you must for certain know how to explain why David compared the love of Jonathan to "the love of women" rather than to the love of brother, mother, father or wife? Explain that to us!"

That is a rather easy thing to explain (which i did in my post)

First let us examine what the dynamics were in David & Jonathan's lives.

#1 - Women were not equal to men. They had a clear submissive role and were not in combat, side by side, with David.

#2 - Men form strong bonds in warfare = even deep platonic love for each other that can exceed the love for a mom, dad and wife.

#3 - David clearly separates the sexual love of a woman for the rare and deep platonic love/bond that forms when your life, which was in constant danger, is supported and loved by another man who spiritually bonds with you and your cause/fight.

This makes perfect sense to me. I experienced this with my children ....and one in particular - my youngest son. We walked through as close as you can get to hell on earth together on another level. I fought so many years against the cult to protect my children. He was my baby. Then he was diagnosed with glioblastoma at age 15. We became homeless and had no place to go but back to my husband who is not free (from his MK Ultra programming) and very unsafe. We lived literally in the furnace fire, and the lion's den while fighting for his life. You develop a bond in situations like that that cannot be explained or adequately described. You understand each other in ways no one else does, on top of the fact he was my baby and mama's love for their babies is already on another level. Maybe that's a benefit of going through the pain of childbirth.

Anyway, I'm rambling ....but a very strong bond like this has nothing to do with sex or sexual attraction. It doesn't even enter that picture. There's nothing to compare to it.

 

[Taken]

Is a man's orientation to be attracted to and love women a sin? Of course not! It is no more a sin for a man whose orientation is to be attracted to and love another man. NO ONE chooses their sexual orientation, who they by nature are attracted to and love. Since none of us choose our sexual orientation, I wonder who did?

"Who do you think you are to answer God back? Can the pot say to the potter, ‘Why did you make me like this?’? Surely the potter can do what he likes with the clay. Is he not free to make two vessels out of the same lump, one to be treasured, the other for common use?" (Rom 9:20-21 REB)

God did not tell us how the process is that he makes 95-98% of men straight and 2-5% of men gay and I do not know if there is a need to know. It is not chosen nor is it changeable. Only how it is acted out is there human responsibility. The percentages I've given seem to be the closest out of the wide range of percentage claims made. It surely is NOT 10% as the LGBTQ bunch claim. It seems too many young people today can't even decide if they are male or female and only decide this by social and peer pressure by a godless society.

A humans “orientation” Begins with that individuals….Thoughts, Interests, Inclinations
AND desires to ACT, to MIMICK, to FOLLOW, to OVERCOME, to ACCEPT, to REJECT, such Thoughts, Interests, Inclinations…

Any individual CAN View … lying, or cheating, or coveting, or stealing, or murdering, or homosexuality….AS “I was naturally born with such natural thoughts, interests, inclinations…thus I am just naturally being me”…

Carry ON…it’s an individuals Choice…

But Don’t plug your ears to the Good News God Sent His Word JESUS to Speak and Spread around the World to Nations of men….

God Has an Offering for all men, For His Ability, His Power, His Authority, to WHOLLY (body, soul, spirit) RE-MAKE ANY freely willing human man, FROM their Natural “orientation” INTO a Super-natural Being….
Which DOES NOT Include, lying, cheating, stealing, homosexuality….OR sin, OR pain, OR sorrow, OR disease, OR divorce, (separation From God), OR Death!

Not a BIG surprise, SOME men entertain and ACT on their NATURAL “thoughts, interests, inclinations”….AND DISECT what God Approves and Disapproves….
Suicide okay…murder not okay
Lying okay……suicide not okay
Lying okay……theft not okay
Theft okay……cheating not okay
Adult Homosexual behavior okay…kids not ok

God Has Establish a LINE…Individuals can freely choose which side of the LINE to Occupy or straddle the LINE and jump back and forth.

The Lord Gods LINE is Not mysterious….
An individual IS WITH Him or AGAINST Him.
And He defines WHAT it REQUIRES to BE WITH Him…or NOT.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Wrangler]

The Bible indeed condemns certain acts of homosexuality as sin

Uh huh. Certain homosexual acts are God's Will. Gotcha.

 

[TinMan]

Do you consider classism right or wrong?

misdirection is a fallacious argument.

 

[Wrangler]

misdirection is a fallacious argument.

You mean like you misdirecting homosexual acts as morally good or not acts at all?

 

[TinMan]

What verses a person quotes has no bearing on what is right or what is wrong.

remember that the next time you quote a verse

 

[Arthur81]

A humans “orientation” Begins with that individuals….Thoughts, Interests, Inclinations
AND desires to ACT, to MIMICK, to FOLLOW, to OVERCOME, to ACCEPT, to REJECT, such Thoughts, Interests, Inclinations…

Any individual CAN View … lying, or cheating, or coveting, or stealing, or murdering, or homosexuality….AS “I was naturally born with such natural thoughts, interests, inclinations…thus I am just naturally being me”…

Carry ON…it’s an individuals Choice…

But Don’t plug your ears to the Good News God Sent His Word JESUS to Speak and Spread around the World to Nations of men….

God Has an Offering for all men, For His Ability, His Power, His Authority, to WHOLLY (body, soul, spirit) RE-MAKE ANY freely willing human man, FROM their Natural “orientation” INTO a Super-natural Being….
Which DOES NOT Include, lying, cheating, stealing, homosexuality….OR sin, OR pain, OR sorrow, OR disease, OR divorce, (separation From God), OR Death!

Not a BIG surprise, SOME men entertain and ACT on their NATURAL “thoughts, interests, inclinations”….AND DISECT what God Approves and Disapproves….
Suicide okay…murder not okay
Lying okay……suicide not okay
Lying okay……theft not okay
Theft okay……cheating not okay
Adult Homosexual behavior okay…kids not ok

God Has Establish a LINE…Individuals can freely choose which side of the LINE to Occupy or straddle the LINE and jump back and forth.

The Lord Gods LINE is Not mysterious….
An individual IS WITH Him or AGAINST Him.
And He defines WHAT it REQUIRES to BE WITH Him…or NOT.

Glory to God,
Taken

Orientation is not a "temptation", is the part of a person's being, his nature. He had NO part in making the choice. His "temptation" is then how he handles his orientation. Is the gay or straight guy promiscuous, violent, abusive in any way in his relationships.

 

[Arthur81]

Uh huh. Certain homosexual acts are God's Will. Gotcha.

Typical evasion when you can't provide a logical answer

 

[Arthur81]

You asked: "Since you are so certain of your belief, I know you must for certain know how to explain why David compared the love of Jonathan to "the love of women" rather than to the love of brother, mother, father or wife? Explain that to us!"

That is a rather easy thing to explain (which i did in my post)

First let us examine what the dynamics were in David & Jonathan's lives.

#1 - Women were not equal to men. They had a clear submissive role and were not in combat, side by side, with David.

#2 - Men form strong bonds in warfare = even deep platonic love for each other that can exceed the love for a mom, dad and wife.

#3 - David clearly separates the sexual love of a woman for the rare and deep platonic love/bond that forms when your life, which was in constant danger, is supported and loved by another man who spiritually bonds with you and your cause/fight.

You are giving your logic, your human thinking. That means NOTHING! Explain why the points on the scripture I gave do not mean exactly what I explained.

 

[Wrangler]

Typical evasion when you can't provide a logical answer

LOL. I'm not evading one little bit. You are projecting. And there was no question for me to answer, logical or otherwise. I am the one who posed the question.

 

[TinMan]

Orientation is not the point of this thread.

its the entire point of the thread

All sinners have orientation to all kinds of sin. Rapists and murderers have orientation.

and here orientation is irrelevant to the crime.

Doesn't make raping and murdering right.

"Orientation" is not some kind of get out of jail free card.

hate and false witness are never right

Still waiting for you to quote me regarding the lies i've told here.

 

[TinMan]

“Names” of persons have Anciently, Historically and Modernly been given a newborn, by their Parents.

Words used to “describe” another person have Anciently, Historically, Modernly been given BY a Multitude of people IN REFERENCE to another person or group of OTHER persons.

Individual persons, or groups of persons…
Have Anciently, Historically, Modernly…
Accepted their NAMES, and/or Changed their NAMES….
ALSO
Have Anciently, Historically, Modernly…
Accepted “DESCRIPTIVE WORDS” and Rejected Descriptive words being APPLIED to THEM.

Names were given to individuals or adopted by individuals AS a hope FOR, or AS a presence of their “demeanor”.
*** Joy, Gay, Happy, Jesus, Names (for example), Had “expressions” hoped for OR implied regarding their “demeanor”.

*** and Descriptive words given to individuals or adopted by individuals WAS more exclusively a KNOWN “demeanor”…(behavior).

*** Joy, Gay, Happy, / Sad, Dam,/ Christian/…
Names and Descriptions “intertwine”.
Names and Descriptions “MAY have some distortions WHEN being TRANSLATED into OTHER LANGUAGES.”
Names and Descriptions “have different connotations” Per “individual persons own personal view”.

Joy, Gay, Happy…Scripturally has the connotation of content, jubilant.
Sad, Dam….Scripturally has the connotation of discontent.

Suffix’s…such as: TIAN, TION, IAN, CIAN…
Reveal the impression of AGREEMENT, or Following after.

Historically NOT unusual for Known words OF Geographical Locations…FOR the Residents to be Descriptively CALLED by a “derivative” or “variant” OF their residing LOCATION.

Location…Continent Africa, River; Niger, Nation; Nigeria, Residents; Nigerians’…

Location…Continent South America, Explorer and Cardiographer: Italian Amerigo Vespucci;

Location…Outlying islands North of Vespucci’s travels location, Explorer Christopher Columbus: Italian whose adventure was FUNDED by Spain’s monarchy.

Northern geographical location, adopted Names from….Explorers, Cardiographers, Historical Foreign monarchs, Historical foreign named places.
North Lands…America, Columbus, New York, Georgia, Carolinas, Virginia, (for examples).

Africa…it’s Nations, it’s peoples, in about the Niger River, were called durative’s of that geographical area…Niger’s, Nigra’s, Negro’s…

Using “descriptive” terms of that WHICH APPLIED to the People’s discovered from Particular Geographical areas….has a LONG ancient History… REGARDING the most common PHYSICAL FEATURES of such People’s …
** Skin Color, Height, Hair Color, Hair Texture, Eye Color, Eye shape, Lips shape, Nose shape, Ear shapes, Cheek shapes, forehead shape, Head shape, etc.
** As well as “discovery” OF “LANDSCAPES”…and the Peoples’…
“customs”, “rituals”, “foods”, “beliefs”, “inventions”, “gods”, etc.

IF a persons’ Ancient Historical Ancestry is offensive, embarrassing, demeaning, TO THEM….that would be THEIR ISSUE…not mine.

The Lord God Almighty Created and Made and Loves ALL People, and doesn’t give a flip about WHAT “terms People use to Describe the OUTER appearence of a Person.”
God doesn’t CHANGE mens MINDS, nor CHANGE mens LOOKS….
Gods OFFERING IS TO CHANGE a Freely Willing mans HEART!

Glory to God,
Taken

is that a yes?

 

[Taken]

@TLHKAJ

You were without doubt come into (as all humans, without the humans own choice) this world with the worst possible situation of distrust of the very people (parents) that were supposed to be your first trusted teachers and protectors…and they failed miserably.

You are a testament to Gods Saving Grace…despite the horrors and tribulations humans can inflict upon humans….the Inflicted, alone, frightened, hopeless, assaulted….HAVE ONE SAVIOR….and Bless YOU abundantly for seeking and discovering and submitting UNTO the Lord God….which completely separates you from they…As Jesus taught there is an “US” and “THEM”…

Your own historical ordeal, and Compassion for other children experiencing your same ordeal is very noble.

God Bless you Abundantly,
Taken

 

[Wrangler]

orientation is irrelevant to the crime.

Exactly! Yet, you keep pretending orientation is a get out of jail free card for homosexual acts.

Still waiting for you to quote me regarding the lies i've told here.

LOL. Nearly every post you make. Trouble is, you are lying to yourself so think you are not lying to us. This is the nature of the damned; they don't feel shame in their sin but pride.

 

[Arthur81]

The KJV, RV, ASV, YLT & NRSV all agree that arsenokoites is correctly translated by the phrase "abusers of themselves with mankind", or "sodomites". In no way does "homosexuals" fit.

I know that is the correct translations for the following reasons -

No one can show that any other than the Apostle Paul coined the word arsenokoites. Paul created the word by combining arsen which means "male; with koite which means "couch" or "bed". The Greek arsen is of course used many times by Paul. The word koite Paul uses 2 other times, or 3 other times if he wrote Hebrews. So, Paul used the words and he had no reason to look back to Leviticus 18:22 to coin the word. If he had Lev.18:22 in mind, he would have quoted it as he did from Leviticus 6 times if you count Hebrews.

It was not until about 160 AD when arsenokoites is ever found used again, and then it is a context of economic injustices. So, we are left to decide the meaning of the word from how Paul uses it.

If Paul wrote Hebrews we have -
"Let marriage be had in honor among all, and let the bed(koites) be undefiled: for fornicators and adulterers God will judge." (Heb. 13:4 ASV) *Here the meaning is co-habitation, the bed of marital relations. Perfectly moral and proper.

In Romans Paul wrote -
"And not only so; but Rebecca also having conceived(koites) by one, even by our father Isaac—" (Rom 9:10 ASV) *Here the word stands for copulation, conception from man with wife sexual union

So far all is moral, but then Paul uses the word again, in a Vice List and I'll quote 3 translations -
"Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering(koites) and wantonness, not in strife and envying." (Rom 13:13 KJV)
"let us live honorably as in the day, not in reveling and drunkenness, not in debauchery(koites) and licentiousness, not in quarreling and jealousy." (Rom 13:13 NRSV)
"Let us behave with decency as befits the day: no drunken orgies(koites), no debauchery or vice, no quarrels or jealousies!" (Rom 13:13 REB)

So, "chambering", "debauchery" and "orgies"! That gives a pretty good picture of heterosexual sexual sin of extreme promiscuity. There is not reason not to think this is male with female here. So, when Paul adds the Greek for male arsen to the front of this word in a sinful context, we start to get the picture. We can use this etymology since it is Paul who is creating the word. Now, while 1 Cor. 6:9 does not have a structure by which we can get a good picture by word association, Paul did use his coined word in a Vice List that DOES have a way to seek meaning by word association.

"...as knowing this, that law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and unruly, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for abusers of themselves with men (arsenokoites), for menstealers, for liars, for false swearers, and if there be any other thing contrary to the sound doctrine;" (1Tim 1:9-10 ASV)

Here we have sins in categories by which we can get an idea of the meaning of a single word.

A. the lawless and unruly, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane
B. for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers
C. for fornicators, arsenokoites, for menstealers
D. for liars, for false swearers,

By word association we have arsenokoites with and between the sexually immoral, and the violent. So, the 1828 Webster's defining the key words in 1 Cor. 6:9 "abusers" and 1 Tim. "defile" gives us -

"ABU'SER, n. s as z. One who abuses, in speech or behavior; one that deceives; a ravisher; a sodomite. 1 Cor 6."
"RAV'ISHER, n. 1. One that takes by violence. 2. One that forces a woman to his carnal embrace."
"DEFILE, v.t. 5. To corrupt chastity; to debauch; to violate; to tarnish the purity of character by lewdness.
Schechem defiled Dinah. Gen 34."

There you find the meaning of arsenokoites using a phrase as in the KJV, RV & ASV; or the word "sodomite" in the YLT & NRSV

Sodomite is NOT a synonym for homosexual! That according to standard dictionaries and a thesaurus. No matter what the "willingly ignorant" claim.