Homosexuality: Wrong or Right?

[Cassandra]

I always think that the reason this stuff shows up in threads from time to time (We have more around here ) is that it can make ourselves feel better pointing fingers at others and condemning them.
Makes our sins (which are just as bad--a sin is a sin) look a little less..uh..sinful. We are not them are we?

 

[TLHKAJ]

(Remember that David loved Jonathan).

You are twisting this verse to mean something it doesn't mean. The words translated "love" in this verse and simply means love and covers all sorts of love, but does not indicate any one in particular. It is even used to describe Isaac loving Essau his son, and the savory meat that Isaac loved. It is used in describing Jacob's love for his son Isaac. And in some verses, it is used in relation to a man loving a woman, or a woman loving a man. It's like we use the word "love" today. I can say I love my children as my own soul because I would give my life foe them. I could say I love my friends ....or I love my husband. I use the same word, but it's all different types of love. There is not one indication of sexual love between David and Jonathan. Not one. In fact, David is known for the sin of adultery .....with a woman.

 

[TLHKAJ]

I would call it homo-adoration. In no way is it an attempt to redefine sexual union.

That is your made-up word. It isn't found in scripture.

 

[TLHKAJ]

Affection for the same sex.

You need to be consistent and follow scriptural meanings. Affection doesn't mean the same thing as love. In scripture, the word "affection" appears once in the OT.

1 Chronicles 29:3
[3]Moreover, because I have set my affection to the house of my God, I have of mine own proper good, of gold and silver, which I have given to the house of my God, over and above all that I have prepared for the holy house,

The word translated "affection" is this:

Hebrew: רצה
Transliteration: râtsâh
Pronunciation: raw-tsaw'
Definition: A primitive root; to be pleased with; specifically to satisfy a debt: - (be) accept ({-able}) {accomplish} set {affection} {approve} consent {with} delight ({self}) {enjoy} ({be} have a) favour ({-able}) {like} {observe} {pardon} ({be} {have} take) please ({-ure}) reconcile self.
KJV Usage: accept (22x), please (6x), pleasure (6x), delight (5x), enjoy (4x), favourable (3x), acceptable (1x), accomplish (1x), affection (1x), approve (1x), misc (7x).
Occurs: 57
In verses: 55

And yet, it is used 56 other times in the OT. It means to take pleasure or joy in something...to accept, to please, to delight...also to approve or reconcile. And this word is not used in relation to David and Jonathan.

 

[Arthur81]

FREEWILL to choose ones own WILL is Right.

* Gods WILL is that ALL men WILL Believe IN Him.
^ THAT SHALL be accomplished.

* Gods DESIRE is that ALL men WILL Believe IN Him, AGREE with His Word, AGREE with His TEACHING and COMMIT to Him…AND thus Be “by God” Forgiven…
BEFORE they BODILY DIE…
^ THAT SHALL NOT be accomplished.

* The WHOLE world has gone bonkers…
~ People repeatedly SEATING Corrupt men in positions of Power, for a trade off of False Promises of “theft and they shall receive the booty”.
~ People releasing their children out into the world (WITHOUT a godly Foundation, WITHOUT the TRUTH), and THEN supporting their children’s corrupt taught (BY the world) ideas…fearing the LOSS of their child, IF they don’t support and or tolerate their Corrupt ideas and acts.

It is A FALSE teaching (by word or example), that God LOVING ALL of His Creations…
Means God SHALL ACCEPT ALL of His Creations IN His Kingdom.

Fact is: EVERY “action” HAS A consequence;
(Positive and Negative).

If a PERSON “falters”, and they SEEK Gods Forgiveness, He is Faithful TO Forgive them.

Faltering IS rejecting to STAND WITH the Lord God…which INCLUDES STANDING WITH, others WHO STAND AGAINST the Lord God.

A PERSON IS: an ALIVE BODY (with His BLOOD, which is a body’s Life) AND a LIVING SOUL, IN his body.

While ALL shall BELIEVE, Bow and Worship the Lord God ON their JUDGEMENT DAY…
Forgiveness SHALL NOT BE Given to a mans Body, VOID of His own LIFE (BLOOD), which is exactly what occurs when a BODY Dies, the Life, the Blood of that BODY Dies.

The believing, the bending, the bowing, the worshiping ON Judgement Day, OCCURS BECAUSE, ON Judgement DAY, ALL Living souls return to their body’s.
Their BODY’s Rise up…Some IN a new BODY, Some IN their Corrupt Body.

Remember…ALL SOULS Belong to God.
Remember…ALL Life IN a SOUL Belongs to God.

FREEWILL choosing belongs to the body’s, hearts, minds of (BLOOD) ALIVE natural born persons.

Choosing, Supporting, Advocating, Promoting, Tolerating, Accepting, that WHICH is an Abomination unto God…
SHALL Be recorded IN Gods Books of Evidence…
AND SHALL BE a Determining Factor ON their own Judgement…
IF “they” Be entered INTO or rejected FROM entering Gods Kingdom.

2 Tim
[1] I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead (saved and unsaved) at his appearing and his kingdom;
[2] Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
[3] For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

As we SEE this day. ^^

[4] And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
[5] But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Remember…NOT DOING, BUT even ADVOCATING, Supporting…has a Negative Consequence.

Romans 1:
1 ~ 31 And specifically….
Romans 1:
[32] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Evil angels, Wicked men, ARE seeking, the weak, the children in droves to devour them with Corruption….and Wayward Parents are a mix of Supporting them, Complaining about them, but Leaving them IN that situation….and a very FEW are Protecting their Children BY TEACHING them Gods Offering and Options, or BY REMOVING them FROM drowning IN the cesspool.

UNFORGIVEN (ie Not MADE righteous)…Homosexuals…murderers…liars…cheats…thieves…etc. Rejectors to Stand WITH God….SHALL Be REJECTED FROM entrance into His KINGDOM….

1 Cor 6:
[9] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
[10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

AND BTW….Gods Kingdom, Presently IN Heaven…SHALL one day INCLUDE ALL of the FACE of the EARTH.

IF a man IS NOT INCLUDED, in entrance IN Gods Kingdom….One Guess Where his Habitat/Estate SHALL be…!

Glory to God,
Taken

Dear Taken, you wrote the following -

"UNFORGIVEN (ie Not MADE righteous)…Homosexuals…murderers…liars…cheats…thieves…etc. Rejectors to Stand WITH God….SHALL Be REJECTED FROM entrance into His KINGDOM….

1 Cor 6:
[9] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
[10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

You put "nor effeminate" in bold so it seems you believe that means "homosexual". Can you produce any reputable English Dictionary that even comes close to defining "effeminate" as homosexual, or as sexual conduct of any king: homo-, bi- or hetero-?

The Greek translated effeminate is malakos, and if you check the other places in the NT where that word is used, you find the following -

"But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft/malakos raiment? behold, they that wear soft/malakos clothing are in kings' houses." (Matt 11:8 KJV) * I nothing there hinting at sexual conduct

"But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft/malakos raiment? Behold, they which are gorgeously apparelled, and live delicately, are in kings' courts." (Luke 7:25 KJV) *Again, nothing about sexual conduct here

These 3 verses are the places the word is found in the NT. The word malakos was used in the Septuagint in Pro. 25:15 for H7390; and Pro. 26:22 for H3859 in the following -

"By long forbearing is a prince persuaded, and a soft/malakos tongue breaketh the bone." (Prov 25:15 KJV)

"The words of a talebearer are as wounds/malakos, and they go down into the innermost parts of the belly." (Prov 26:22 KJV)

A word study in the Greek NT and the Septuagint does not even hint that it is sexual conduct.

The claim is made that μαλακός malakos is used to mean a "Catamite", a boy/male prostitute. There is a Greek-English Lexicon of Classical Greek online and in its long list, you do not find "Catamite" as a meaning of malakos.

μαλακός - Ancient Greek (LSJ)

lsj.gr

This same Classical Greek Lexicon does have the specific Greek for "catamite" and it is NOT malakos.

κίναιδος - Ancient Greek (LSJ)

lsj.gr

Heinrich Meyer, a 19th century Lutheran Greek scholar says on this word -
"μαλακοί ] effeminates , commonly understood as qui muliebria patiuntur , but with no sufficient evidence from the usage of the language (the passages in Wetstein and Kypke, even Dion. Hal. vii. 2, do not prove the point); moreover, such catamites ( molles ) were called πόρνοι or κίναιδοι . One does not see, moreover, why precisely this sin should be mentioned twice over in different aspects. Rather therefore: effeminate luxurious livers . Comp Aristotle, Eth. vii. 7 : μαλακὸς καὶ τρυφῶν , Xen. Mem. ii. 1, 20, also μαλακῶς , iii. 11. 10 : τρυφὴ δὲ καὶ μαλθακία , Plato, Rep. p. 590 B."

1 Corinthians 6 - Meyer's Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

1 Corinthians 6, Meyer's Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament, Meyer's New Testament Commentary provides critical insights through original text analysis, essential for Christian comprehension.

www.studylight.org

From the Expositors Greek Testament by Sir William Robertson Nicoll (1851-1923)
"μαλακοί , soft, voluptuous , appears in this connexion to signify general addiction to sins of the flesh; lexical ground is wanting for the sense of pathici , suggested to some interpreters by the following word and by the use of molles in Latin."

1 Corinthians 6 - The Expositor's Greek Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

1 Corinthians 6, The Expositor's Greek Testament, The Expositor's Greek Testament provides Christians deep insights via deep Greek analysis and historical context, enriching biblical understanding.

www.studylight.org

For centuries malakos has meant "effeminate", "self-indulgent" and "voluptuous" ... I can find no reason to adopt what appear to be the modern biases of men. There has been no better manuscripts found to make the change. I do not think these modern scholars know the classics better than men of the past. I'll stay with the KJV, RV, ASV & YLT.

Before condemning someone to hell for being in a gay relationship, they better be a sure and certain about the translation used!

 

[TLHKAJ]

The act of homosexuality is described in the verses below. Plainly, scripture says a man should not lay down with another man in the same way a man would lay down with a woman. It is defilement and an abomination.

It is in the list with child sacrifice, incest, taking someone else's wife, bestiality, and other acts of lewdness.

Leviticus 18:22-30
[22]Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
[23]Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.
[24]Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
[25]And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.
[26]Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
[27](For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;
[28]That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.
[29]For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.
[30]Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God.

 

[Arthur81]

The act of homosexuality is described in the verses below. Plainly, scripture says a man should not lay down with another man in the same way a man would lay down with a woman. It is defilement and an abomination.

It is in the list with child sacrifice, incest, taking someone else's wife, bestiality, and other acts of lewdness.

Leviticus 18:22-30
[22]Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
[23]Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.
[24]Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
[25]And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.
[26]Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
[27](For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;
[28]That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.
[29]For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.
[30]Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God.

What did Moses tell the Israelites about the Law, the Old Covenant?

"And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?" (Deut 4:8 KJV)

The Law of Moses was given to Israel, not the Gentile nations. Then when reading Leviticus, check the last verse of the book -

"These are the commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai." (Lev 27:34 KJV)

If there is any command in Leviticus for the New Covenant believer, it is quoted for us in the New Covenant -

"Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD." (Lev 19:18 KJV)

That is not a command for us just because it is in the Bible, it is a command for New Covenant believers because it is quoted exactly for us in the New Covenant.

To claim Paul had Lev. 18:22(LXX) in mind when he coined the word arsenokoites is a very weak argument for two reasons. One, Paul quotes from Leviticus several times, so if he wanted to duplicate Lev. 18:22, he would have quoted it. Two, the Greek Septuagint uses the Greek word agape for the love/rape of Tamar by Amnon in 2 Sam. 13:10! Better be careful trying to say Paul was using LXX language.

Lev. 18:22 is about the idolatrous male cult prostitutes, not simply a male lying sexually with another male. The Chapter is about religious rituals, with the Hebrew chuqqah used in v3 and to ebah used in v22. Both are about religious rites.

 

[Taken]

For centuries malakos has meant "effeminate", "self-indulgent" and "voluptuous" ... I can find no reason to adopt what appear to be the modern biases of men. There has been no better manuscripts found to make the change. I do not think these modern scholars know the classics better than men of the past. I'll stay with the KJV, RV, ASV & YLT.

Before condemning someone to hell for being in a gay relationship, they better be a sure and certain about the translation used!

Thank you for your effort and post.

Word “meanings” change as “societies” change and “accept” what was the meaning to mean the “complete” opposite.

Nearly one hundred years ago EFFEMINATE meant:

EFFEM'INATE, adjective [Latin effoeminatus, from effoeminor, to grow or make womanish, from foemina, a woman. See Woman.]
1. Having the qualities of the female sex; soft or delicate to an unmanly degree; tender; womanish; voluptuous.
The king, by his voluptuous life and mean marriage, became effeminate and less sensible of honor.
2. Womanish; weak; resembling the practice or qualities of the sex; as an effeminatepeace; an effeminate life.
3. Womanlike, tender, in a sense not reproachful.
EFFEM'INATE, verb transitive To make womanish; to unman; to weaken; as to effeminate children.
EFFEM'INATE, verb intransitive To grow womanish or weak; to melt into weakness.
In a slothful peace courage will effeminate
(Source: the renown Noah Webster’s 1828 English Dictionary)

You used the “word GAY” to denote a homosexual.


GAY, adjective

1. Merry; airy; jovial; sportive; frolicksome. It denotes more life and animation than cheerful.

Belinda smiled, and all the world was gay

2. Fine; showy; as a gay dress.

3. Inflamed or merry with liquor; intoxicated; a vulgar use of the word in America.

GAY, noun An ornament. [Not used.]
( Source, Again Webster’s 1828 Dictionary.)

A long time favorite Christmas song….
Deck the Halls, has been sung in American Churches for over 100 years, INCLUDING the portion of the lyrics …. Let us don our GAY apparel. That has no implication or encouragement for men to dress up in Woman’s garments, but rather all donning Festive clothing.

GAY has lost its jubilant, festive meaning to expressly mean involved in homosexual activities, by participation, support thereof or as you did to accept it’s meaning changed by society.

AND BTW, I neither said nor implied Damning one to hell is something I assumed authority to effect.

Gods Word is the TRUTH. Every man has FREEWILL to believe and accept His TRUTH…OR NOT.
Consequences are NOT the SAME for those who FREELY CHOOSE Gods Word and Way and those who FREELY CHOOSE to NOT accept Gods Word and Way.
Christ Jesus IS the Judge.
Judging IS according to the Evidence in Gods books and records.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[TLHKAJ]

What did Moses tell the Israelites about the Law, the Old Covenant?

"And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?" (Deut 4:8 KJV)

The Law of Moses was given to Israel, not the Gentile nations. Then when reading Leviticus, check the last verse of the book -

"These are the commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai." (Lev 27:34 KJV)

If there is any command in Leviticus for the New Covenant believer, it is quoted for us in the New Covenant -

"Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD." (Lev 19:18 KJV)

That is not a command for us just because it is in the Bible, it is a command for New Covenant believers because it is quoted exactly for us in the New Covenant.

To claim Paul had Lev. 18:22(LXX) in mind when he coined the word arsenokoites is a very weak argument for two reasons. One, Paul quotes from Leviticus several times, so if he wanted to duplicate Lev. 18:22, he would have quoted it. Two, the Greek Septuagint uses the Greek word agape for the love/rape of Tamar by Amnon in 2 Sam. 13:10! Better be careful trying to say Paul was using LXX language.

Lev. 18:22 is about the idolatrous male cult prostitutes, not simply a male lying sexually with another male. The Chapter is about religious rituals, with the Hebrew chuqqah used in v3 and to ebah used in v22. Both are about religious rites.

So then by your logic, incest and child sacrifice are also approved by God for Gentile believers. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Wrangler]

(Remember that David loved Jonathan).

I would call it homo-adoration. In no way is it an attempt to redefine sexual union.

You got some kind of fetish going on there.

We are required to love one another, man and woman. Love one another does not mean have sex with every fellow you meet, man or woman! Love does not mean sex. You obviously know that.

 

[Taken]

You got some kind of fetish going on there.

We are required to love one another, man and woman. Love one another does not mean have sex with every fellow you meet, man or woman! Love does not mean sex. You obviously know that.

Agree. And would clarify Loving another and Being IN Love with another are two different things.

Loving another IS an expression of Desiring Good will toward and for another.

IN Love with another HAS the same application of Loving another, but further INCLUDES bodily sexual desires.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[TinMan]

We are dealing with the element of function and disfunction. Engaging in homosexuality is a disfunction; it is a distortion of the intent of human sexuality as is pedophilia and bestiality.

it is sad, misguided and downright hateful to compare a minority to people who sexually abuse children.

 

[TinMan]

There are actually gay churches filled with people heading for Hell.

there are a lot of straight churches filled with people heading for hell

 

[TinMan]

The act of homosexuality is described in the verses below. Plainly, scripture says a man should not lay down with another man in the same way a man would lay down with a woman. It is defilement and an abomination.

It is in the list with child sacrifice, incest, taking someone else's wife, bestiality, and other acts of lewdness.

Leviticus 18:22-30
[22]Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
[23]Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.
[24]Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
[25]And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.
[26]Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
[27](For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;
[28]That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.
[29]For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.
[30]Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God.

Do you follow all the laws of Leviticus? I doubt it.

 

[TinMan]

Thank you for your effort and post.

Word “meanings” change as “societies” change and “accept” what was the meaning to mean the “complete” opposite.

Nearly one hundred years ago EFFEMINATE meant:

EFFEM'INATE, adjective [Latin effoeminatus, from effoeminor, to grow or make womanish, from foemina, a woman. See Woman.]
1. Having the qualities of the female sex; soft or delicate to an unmanly degree; tender; womanish; voluptuous.
The king, by his voluptuous life and mean marriage, became effeminate and less sensible of honor.
2. Womanish; weak; resembling the practice or qualities of the sex; as an effeminatepeace; an effeminate life.
3. Womanlike, tender, in a sense not reproachful.
EFFEM'INATE, verb transitive To make womanish; to unman; to weaken; as to effeminate children.
EFFEM'INATE, verb intransitive To grow womanish or weak; to melt into weakness.
In a slothful peace courage will effeminate
(Source: the renown Noah Webster’s 1828 English Dictionary)

You used the “word GAY” to denote a homosexual.


GAY, adjective

1. Merry; airy; jovial; sportive; frolicksome. It denotes more life and animation than cheerful.

Belinda smiled, and all the world was gay

2. Fine; showy; as a gay dress.

3. Inflamed or merry with liquor; intoxicated; a vulgar use of the word in America.

GAY, noun An ornament. [Not used.]
( Source, Again Webster’s 1828 Dictionary.)

A long time favorite Christmas song….
Deck the Halls, has been sung in American Churches for over 100 years, INCLUDING the portion of the lyrics …. Let us don our GAY apparel. That has no implication or encouragement for men to dress up in Woman’s garments, but rather all donning Festive clothing.

GAY has lost its jubilant, festive meaning to expressly mean involved in homosexual activities, by participation, support thereof or as you did to accept it’s meaning changed by society.

AND BTW, I neither said nor implied Damning one to hell is something I assumed authority to effect.

Gods Word is the TRUTH. Every man has FREEWILL to believe and accept His TRUTH…OR NOT.
Consequences are NOT the SAME for those who FREELY CHOOSE Gods Word and Way and those who FREELY CHOOSE to NOT accept Gods Word and Way.
Christ Jesus IS the Judge.
Judging IS according to the Evidence in Gods books and records.

Glory to God,
Taken

and before that gay meant a man who frequents brothels. Teh meanings of words change over time. It is dangerous to assign modern meanings to ancient words.

 

[TinMan]

I will be advocating for the side that homosexuality is inherently wrong, and the promotion of such actions and thoughts are evil. Similar or contrasting views are welcome and gladly accepted. Let us be in constant search for the truth during our discussion.

One might as well be asking Blue Eyes: Wrong or Right?

 

[Wrangler]

it is sad, misguided and downright hateful to compare a minority to people who sexually abuse children.

Huh? Those who sexually abuse children are that minority!

 

[Arthur81]

So then by your logic, incest and child sacrifice are also approved by God for Gentile believers. Thanks for clarifying.

I based my belief on the direct, explicit statements of scripture about the Law of Moses not my logic. Child sacrifice is murder. Inbreeding as humanity spread, and became less perfect as it was in Eden, would be producing noticeable deformities and birth defects which common knowledge would regulate. It was not a problem for Cain or the immediate children and again Noah's grandchildren would 'commit' incest. It is interesting there is nothing forbidding incest until the Law of Moses. I doubt all cultures, nations or jurisdictions define incest the same in this day. Then we know that Jesus abolished the law at the cross: Eph. 2:15; Col. 2:14; Heb. 8:13; 2 Cor. 3:7-11. Gentiles were never under the law -

"When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them" (Rom 2:14-15 NRSV)

If you have a problem with what the scriptures state, go to the Almighty about it. Don't try to blame it on my logic!

 

[Arthur81]

I will be advocating for the side that homosexuality is inherently wrong, and the promotion of such actions and thoughts are evil. Similar or contrasting views are welcome and gladly accepted. Let us be in constant search for the truth during our discussion.

Pooh Bear, you say "homosexuality is inherently wrong", but does that not prove the fact that since homosexual orientation is found in some people's nature, it is not wrong?

From the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary -

"inherent (in somebody/something) that is a basic or permanent part of somebody/something and that cannot be removed"

inherent adjective - Definition, pictures, pronunciation and usage notes | Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary at OxfordLearnersDictionaries.com

Definition of inherent adjective in Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary. Meaning, pronunciation, picture, example sentences, grammar, usage notes, synonyms and more.

www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com

No one chooses who they are attracted to and love, is just who they are. Many things of human beings today are not a mirror image of God's original creation, but are they all wrong, sinful? No one ever chooses their sexual orientation, and to insist it is a choice is just flat out ignorance, and denying our common human experience. So, for the male of homosexual orientation, it is inherently his nature as God made him. If anything is wrong, it is the homophobic culture he has to deal with in life. If you doubt God made the homosexual, read these two verses -

"Who do you think you are to answer God back? Can the pot say to the potter, ‘Why did you make me like this?’? Surely the potter can do what he likes with the clay. Is he not free to make two vessels out of the same lump, one to be treasured, the other for common use?" (Rom 9:20-21 REB)

It seems that trying to be ex-gay is to answer God back, challenging Him.

 

[Arthur81]

Thank you for your effort and post.

Word “meanings” change as “societies” change and “accept” what was the meaning to mean the “complete” opposite.

Nearly one hundred years ago EFFEMINATE meant:

EFFEM'INATE, adjective [Latin effoeminatus, from effoeminor, to grow or make womanish, from foemina, a woman. See Woman.]
1. Having the qualities of the female sex; soft or delicate to an unmanly degree; tender; womanish; voluptuous.
The king, by his voluptuous life and mean marriage, became effeminate and less sensible of honor.
2. Womanish; weak; resembling the practice or qualities of the sex; as an effeminatepeace; an effeminate life.
3. Womanlike, tender, in a sense not reproachful.
EFFEM'INATE, verb transitive To make womanish; to unman; to weaken; as to effeminate children.
EFFEM'INATE, verb intransitive To grow womanish or weak; to melt into weakness.
In a slothful peace courage will effeminate
(Source: the renown Noah Webster’s 1828 English Dictionary)

You used the “word GAY” to denote a homosexual.


GAY, adjective

1. Merry; airy; jovial; sportive; frolicksome. It denotes more life and animation than cheerful.

Belinda smiled, and all the world was gay

2. Fine; showy; as a gay dress.

3. Inflamed or merry with liquor; intoxicated; a vulgar use of the word in America.

GAY, noun An ornament. [Not used.]
( Source, Again Webster’s 1828 Dictionary.)

A long time favorite Christmas song….
Deck the Halls, has been sung in American Churches for over 100 years, INCLUDING the portion of the lyrics …. Let us don our GAY apparel. That has no implication or encouragement for men to dress up in Woman’s garments, but rather all donning Festive clothing.

GAY has lost its jubilant, festive meaning to expressly mean involved in homosexual activities, by participation, support thereof or as you did to accept it’s meaning changed by society.

AND BTW, I neither said nor implied Damning one to hell is something I assumed authority to effect.

Gods Word is the TRUTH. Every man has FREEWILL to believe and accept His TRUTH…OR NOT.
Consequences are NOT the SAME for those who FREELY CHOOSE Gods Word and Way and those who FREELY CHOOSE to NOT accept Gods Word and Way.
Christ Jesus IS the Judge.
Judging IS according to the Evidence in Gods books and records.

Glory to God,
Taken

Yes, the meaning of words do change over time, and that is why you use the 1828 Webster's English Dictionary which is closer to the language of the KJV. Let's try it out on a couple of verses and see how we come out with it.

"EFFEM'INATE, a. [L. effoeminatus, from effoeminor, to grow or make womanish, from foemina, a woman. See Woman.]
1. Having the qualities of the female sex; soft or delicate to an unmanly degree; tender; womanish; voluptuous.
The king, by his voluptuous life and mean marriage, became effeminate, and less sensible of honor.
2. Womanish; weak; resembling the practice or qualities of the sex; as an effeminate peace; an effeminate life.
3. Womanlike, tender, in a sense not reproachful.
EFFEM'INATE, v.t. To make womanish; to unman; to weaken; as to effeminate children.
EFFEM'INATE, v.i. To grow womanish or weak; to melt into weakness.
In a slothful peace courage will effeminate."

I do not see a meaning of passive homosexual there or any sexual meaning of any type homo-, bi- or hetero-

Let's see how much "effeminate" has changed since 1828 by looking at today's Merriam-Webster -

"effeminate adjective
1 : having feminine qualities untypical of a man : not manly in appearance or manner
2 : marked by an unbecoming delicacy or overrefinement
effeminate art
an effeminate civilization

effeminate noun
: an effeminate person"

An effeminate person has not become a passive homosexual, have they? Since we are talking definitions, let's try two more. The word "abuser" is key in the KJV rendering of arsenokoites in 1 Cor.6:9 "defile" is the word in 1 Tim. 1:10 - Let's see how the 1828 Webster's defines those words.

"ABU'SER, n. s as z. One who abuses, in speech or behavior; one that deceives; a ravisher; a sodomite. 1 Cor 6."
"RAV'ISHER, n. 1. One that takes by violence. 2. One that forces a woman to his carnal embrace. 3. One that transports with delight.
"DEFILE, v.t. 5. To corrupt chastity; to debauch; to violate; to tarnish the purity of character by lewdness. Schechem defiled Dinah. Gen 34.
*Schechem raped Dinah

Since the 1828 Webster's gave us synonyms and one it gave is "sodomite", let's look at a respected current thesaurus on "sodomite" -

Roget's International Thesaurus, Eighth Edition, Revised and Updated 2022

"homosexual" is found in 75.14 but "sodomite" is found in section 75.16 and here is the word surrounded by close synonyms -

"pervert, perve, deviant, deviate, sex pervert, sex fiend, sex criminal, sex psychopath, sex addict; sick puppy; sodomist, sodomite, sob, bugger; pederast;"

It is clear "sodomite" and "homosexual" are NOT synonyms! The sodomite today is pretty much the same as in the 1828 Webster's