A Question for Jehovah's Witnesses

[face2face]

It's sad when bad witnesses have to resort to denying there is often more than one sense to a word meaning.

Just yesterday in a meeting, the presentation was called "concrete proposals" but had nothing to do with concrete. It must be a mystical thing, right?

Well, seeing you "have a go" is "as good as it's going to get" I believe on this one Wrangler.

So, you are right, the word "slanderous" as its rightly translated in those passages speaks to one who is a false accuser, so using this word in relation to a Deacons wife is correct and to apply the word "devil" would not fit the context.

Lets have a look at another example. @Aunty Jane

In Hebrews 2:14 the word devil is used there to represent "sin in the flesh" or should we say the word "devil is synonymous with sin". In other words Wrangler, sin falsely accusers us before God because our nature has a bias toward sin. Those who live in the fear of death, which is what sin produces, have been freed from this fear in Christ.

(as a side note Wrangler, consider Matt 4:1-11 - Jesus tempted of the devil!...what was Jesus actually being tempted to do, and what was its source? Paul using the word devil to be synonymous with sin and Jesus being tempted of his nature to sin, is one and the same thing!

So the meaning of Devil in 1 Timothy 3:11 is actually the same as the meaning in Hebrews 2:14 - just the context is different. One relates to a negative characteristic of the flesh while the other to the negative attribute of sin which leads a person to death. You can also look up Heb 9:26, Romans 5:21 and Romans 6:23...also worth looking at Rom 7:17,18.

So let's assume for a minute you reluctantly acknowledge the above as true. What about the use of the word Devil in a more compelling context?

John 6:70

70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” Jn 6:69–70.

How is the Lord using this word?

Was Judas a false accuser? Yes!
Did Judas slander his Lord? Yes!
Is Jesus actually saying Judas is a supernatural evil being who dwells in fire? No!

I'm sure the point is made clear!

Okay, what about an even more compelling use of the word devil?

"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour." 1 Peter 5:8

This is a cracker Wrangler - firstly...did you notice the translators used "adversary" and not "satan?"

"your satan the devil"

Lets translate it this way...

"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the false accuser (or slanderer) , as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour." 1 Peter 5:8

Why use the metaphor of a Lion?
Clearly you don't believe a supernatural evil being is actually walking around devouring people?
Do you have weapons to stop such a creature?

I know right! It's foolishness to believe in that nonsense.

Who is Peter referring to then if not a supernatural being?

Does the literal Lion represent something more sinister? Paul had a similar encounter with a roaring lion in 2 Timothy 4:17, but this lion was not a fallen angel, but Caesar's tribunal, (Read 2 Tim 4:16-17) from which Paul was delivered at the first trial. Maybe you are seeing a wise Apostle teaching his fellow servants to be on guard from those who would throw you to the Lions! How many Christians were fed to the Lions? So the adversary and false accuser here is most likely the Roman authorities ...also read 2 Timothy 3:11-13

If you have an example of the word devil or satan you would like explained feel free to post it -

In the Masters service.

F2F

 

[tigger 2]

Reply to post #300:

Just because most translators are trinitarians and naturally prefer this translation does not mean that it is the only honest translation.

See my study of this truth:

Hebrews 1:8 - “Thy Throne, O God”

 

[Jack]

Reply to post #300:

Just because most translators are trinitarians and naturally prefer this translation does not mean that it is the only honest translation.

See my study of this truth:

Hebrews 1:8 - “Thy Throne, O God”

I don't know of even one English translation that doesn't clearly declare that Jesus is God and Hell fire is everlasting. Even the JW bible.

 

[marks]

Let's try again, "to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;"

Hebrews 1:5-8 KJV
5) For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6) And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8) But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

There is an obvious contrasting between the Son and angels in this passage. To the angels He says this, but to the Son He says that.

Much love!

 

[face2face]

@Jack #296 Jack...go on Jacky boy give it a go! No avoidance tactics here please...only a willingness to be confronted with cold hard facts!

You put the twist on verse 8 now lets see what you can do with verse 9!

While you're there try and think how it's possible Jesus could be called God but not actually be God - I know right, your mind is in overload - I can bring verse 8&9 beautifully together because I know Christ did not pre-exist and he certainly is not deity.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Reply to post #300:

Just because most translators are trinitarians and naturally prefer this translation does not mean that it is the only honest translation.

See my study of this truth:

Hebrews 1:8 - “Thy Throne, O God”

Yep Psalm 45 is the key!
Also see Exod. 7:1; Psa. 82:6 cmp John 10:34; Exod. 22:9, 28 all relevant to explain Heb 1:8...but verse 9 is the final word!

 

[Aunty Jane]

There is much to learn Jane, and I've tried to show you many things, but you hold to your JW doctrines with a fierce grip, something to be admired really, but you will need to let them go if you want to know the real truth on this subject.

I will never believe the twisted nonsense that you post here. You are apparently a “Lone Ranger” when it comes to Bible interpretation.....who else believes as you do? If someone was interested to know more about your brotherhood, where would you send them? To yourself? Are you the faithful slave in Matt 24:45?

Still holding to that old chestnut I see...nothing has changed?

And you still avoid answering me. If you have no physical brotherhood with whom you meet regularly and who hold all beliefs in common, (Heb 10:24-25; 1 Cor 1:10) then you do not have the truth, no matter how strongly you “believe” in what you say.

This should be good...fact is, many false accusers live and its probable you have been one in your life! I'm not sure what you mean by "sinless" flesh as sin is not in the flesh as a physical entity Jane...it takes place in the mind - hence Paul calling it the carnal mind in Romans 8:7 - Christ had the same mind though never gave it voice or action but crucified it on the tree.

When David said....” I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.” (Psalm 51:5)
This is an indication that he believed that sin was in the flesh, not just the mind....

Why did Paul say......
“I find, then, this law in my case: When I wish to do what is right, what is bad is present with me. 22 I really delight in the law of God according to the man I am within, 23 but I see in my body another law warring against the law of my mind and leading me captive to sin’s law that is in my body. 24 Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from the body undergoing this death? 25 Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So, then, with my mind I myself am a slave to God’s law, but with my flesh to sin’s law.”

Where is your argument supported from scripture? You quote Paul very selectively, whilst accusing others of doing the same.

As I predicted, Jane took us to Revelation to prove the existence of a supernatural agent of evil. An incredibly symbolic chapter where every symbol requires unpacking.

Last time I looked, Revelation was part of the Bible....a most important part. All of scripture comes to its culmination in the future events foretold in Revelation.....a portal into the end of Satan’s rule over unbelieving mankind, and the institution of God’s kingdom over redeemed mankind, taking us back to God’s original purpose in Eden.

Out of interest, do you believe this is the literal image of actual events taking place in this prophecy? Be nice to know my time here has value.

I’m sorry to have to tell you this, but your time here has been pretty much wasted IMO. You post nothing that is remotely close to what the Bible teaches.....it’s all your own ideas, presented as if it was gospel truth...it might be truth to you....but to who else?
The Christian brotherhood in this time of the end is global, not local.....in every nation, true Christians must subscribe to the same truth. Jesus did not promote division....the devil takes care of that......using those he can influence to promote a counterfeit “Christianity”. (Matt 13:36-43) To fall for the lie that he does not exist is indeed a victory for God’s adversary.

So who is the devil using to take as many down with him as he can? We will all know that soon enough.....

 

[face2face]

So why do all you JW's avoid John 20 like plague? Oh that's right, you think angels did the creating!

Col 1 By Jesus all things were created.

Jesus is God!

Angels, Jesus and the Saints are all God's willing servants Jack...don't you know this? It just happens that "all things" were created with the Son in mind. What's wrong with that?

 

[face2face]

I will never believe the twisted nonsense that you post here. You are apparently a “Lone Ranger” when it comes to Bible interpretation.....who else believes as you do? If someone was interested to know more about your brotherhood, where would you send them? To yourself? Are you the faithful slave in Matt 24:45?

Keep flogging that horse Jane...it doesnt put you in a good light that you fall on your community as the sole source of truth! A terrible shock coming!

When David said....” I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.” (Psalm 51:5)
This is an indication that he believed that sin was in the flesh, not just the mind....

So if you cut your arm off Jane are you less sinful?

Why did Paul say......
“I find, then, this law in my case: When I wish to do what is right, what is bad is present with me. 22 I really delight in the law of God according to the man I am within, 23 but I see in my body another law warring against the law of my mind and leading me captive to sin’s law that is in my body. 24 Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from the body undergoing this death? 25 Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So, then, with my mind I myself am a slave to God’s law, but with my flesh to sin’s law.”

Where is your argument supported from scripture? You quote Paul very selectively, whilst accusing others of doing the same.

What was the law working in Paul's members? Would you see Gal 5:17 "desires of the flesh" In Romans 8 This is called "the law of sin and
death" (Romans 8:2)

It is the urges of the flesh "lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and the pride of life" given voice yeah?

Its a physical direction governed by the will of the flesh in the circumstances of life. Unless countered by the law of the Spirit (again in the mind!), these "members" cause all kinds of ungodly behavior (Col 3:5-7) as Christ taught defilement comes from the heart (mind) of man!

I've known a few believers over the years who believe in the physical indwelling of sin in the flesh, but its not a Bible truth.

Last time I looked, Revelation was part of the Bible....a most important part.

It is!
Though its your only source of support for your false doctrine which puts you "shaky" ground - having no origin story and a silent OT just hurts!

All of scripture comes to its culmination in the future events foretold in Revelation.....a portal into the end of Satan’s rule over unbelieving mankind, and the institution of God’s kingdom over redeemed mankind, taking us back to God’s original purpose in Eden.

No Scripture Jane!

I’m sorry to have to tell you this, but your time here has been pretty much wasted IMO. You post nothing that is remotely close to what the Bible teaches.....it’s all your own ideas, presented as if it was gospel truth...it might be truth to you....but to who else?

I sense that keenly - your blindness and inability to expound the chapters and verse you lean on is evident.

Is the Heaven in Rev 12:1 the sames as the battle you think takes place in Heaven in verse 7?

Such an easy question to answer but like many who hold wrong teaching they get twisted up in knots and all you see is error.

The Christian brotherhood in this time of the end is global, not local.....in every nation, true Christians must subscribe to the same truth. Jesus did not promote division....the devil takes care of that......using those he can influence to promote a counterfeit “Christianity”. (Matt 13:36-43) To fall for the lie that he does not exist is indeed a victory for God’s adversary.

So who is the devil using to take as many down with him as he can? We will all know that soon enough.....

Must admit, this reply is not to your usually standard Jane...I've been reading a lot of your posts over the past 12 months and this is weak - I think its as though you have run out of air...false doctrine is like that...you can only go so far before you run out of what keeps it alive. Its dead and you drag it around with you - its a stench really.

BTW He brought a sword and its just been used on your devil teaching and found to be wanting!

As I've said to Wrangler if you have any proof texts you think holds the key to your super natural being I'm here to open that Word and show you truth.

Take care
F2F

 

[Aunty Jane]

Hebrews 1:5-8 KJV
5) For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6) And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8) But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

There is an obvious contrasting between the Son and angels in this passage. To the angels He says this, but to the Son He says Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.”

One more verse and we have the answer to this often repeated scripture......
“Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.”

The very next verse says....
“9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.”

Do you see that the one addressed has a God who “anointed him with gladness” above his “fellows”.
Read it again.....How can the one addressed BE God if he has a God who anointed him “above his fellows”.
Who can anoint God above his “fellows”? Who can be God’s “fellows”?

Verse 8 would more correctly be rendered...
“But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.”

You all see only what you want to see.....but if you bothered to do some study outside of your theology, you would see a whole other story......not the one fed to the masses as a ‘counterfeit’ sown by the great deceiver.
He has you worshipping the wrong “god”. (Exodus 20:3) The Father is the one who authorises his son to do whatever he has commissioned him to do......before Jesus departed this earth he commissioned his disciples to preach and make more disciples. (Matt 28:18-20)
“Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.”
If Jesus was God why did he need his Father’s authorisation in order to carry out his assignment? You cannot give “all authority” to one who already has it.

 

[face2face]

@Aunty Jane

Also, your use of Psalm 51:5 to try and prove David's flesh had sin in it as though sin is a physical presence wasn't a good use of the text Jane.

There is an irony in that verse you know...Is David putting himself in the place of the unnamed child, indeed "conceived" in the adulterous sin of David and Bathsheba?

Anyways, David knew that all men and women sin and it is no different to his parents - wages of sin is death and its that law which works in us until we die.

Enjoy
F2F

 

[face2face]

One more verse and we have the answer to this often repeated scripture......
“Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.”

The very next verse says....
“9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.”

Do you see that the one addressed has a God who “anointed him with gladness” above his “fellows”.
Read it again.....How can the one addressed BE God if he has a God who anointed him “above his fellows”.
Who can anoint God above his “fellows”? Who can be God’s “fellows”?

Verse 8 would more correctly be rendered...
“But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.”

You all see only what you want to see.....but if you bothered to do some study outside of your theology, you would see a whole other story......not the one fed to the masses as a ‘counterfeit’ sown by the great deceiver.
He has you worshipping the wrong “god”. (Exodus 20:3) The Father is the one who authorises his son to do whatever he has commissioned him to do......before Jesus departed this earth he commissioned his disciples to preach and make more disciples. (Matt 28:18-20)
“Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.”
If Jesus was God why did he need his Father’s authorisation in order to carry out his assignment? You cannot give “all authority” to one who already has it.

It perplexes me that you can "almost" rightly divide this text, but you dont apply the same mindset with other subjects?
I wonder what they call that?

 

[Jack]

@Jack #296 Jack...go on Jacky boy give it a go! No avoidance tactics here please...only a willingness to be confronted with cold hard facts!

You put the twist on verse 8 now lets see what you can do with verse 9!

No twist, just a quote that JW's HATE!

While you're there try and think how it's possible Jesus could be called God but not actually be God - I know right, your mind is in overload - I can bring verse 8&9 beautifully together because I know Christ did not pre-exist and he certainly is not deity.

F2F

Jesus is God. I never denied it. ONLY God / Jesus is called "Mighty God" and "the first and the last" in the Bible, even the JW bible! Nobody else!

Jesus is God!

 

[Jack]

Angels, Jesus and the Saints are all God's willing servants Jack...don't you know this? It just happens that "all things" were created with the Son in mind. What's wrong with that?

No Scripture? Of course not.

 

[face2face]

No twist, just a quote that JW's HATE!

Jesus is God. I never denied it. ONLY God / Jesus is called "Mighty God" and "the first and the last" in the Bible, even the JW bible! Nobody else!

Jesus is God!

Com'on Jack you can take on Verse 9 - give it a go.
F2F

 

[face2face]

No Scripture? Of course not.

What Scripture do you want Jack?
Would Revelation 13:8 help you to see that truth?

 

[marks]

No twist, just a quote that JW's HATE!

Jesus is God. I never denied it. ONLY God / Jesus is called "Mighty God" and "the first and the last" in the Bible, even the JW bible! Nobody else!

Jesus is God!

Revelation 5:13 KJV
And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

The same worship given to the Father is also given to the Son.

Much love!

 

[Jack]

Com'on Jack you can take on Verse 9 - give it a go.
F2F

Already did. God called His Son "God".

 

[Jack]

What Scripture do you want Jack?
Would Revelation 13:8 help you to see that truth?

Try the ones that call God / Jesus "Mighty God" and "the first and the last". NOBODY else in the Bible!

 

[face2face]

@Jack the longer you avoid those questions them more you lose credibility in this discussion.

You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.”

Why dont you try and ask questions of the text:

Does God have a God?
Does God have companions?

F2F