False Teaching: Mary died a virgin. Biblical Proof Mary had children.

[Sigma]

"Betrothal in most eras of Bible history involved two families in a formal contract, and that contract was as binding as marriage itself. Betrothal then was more of a business transaction between two families than a personal, romantic choice. Dowry or bride price agreements were included, so that a broken engagement required repayment of the dowry. After betrothal, all that remained were three matters: the wedding celebration, the bride’s move into the groom’s house, and the consummation of the marriage."

Post #155 is correct, accurate and scriptural truth.

In Israel, also at the time of Joseph and Mary, a marriage comprised of two phases: the engagement and the wedding. The rite of the engagement, by which the marriage was essentially established, implied that the young couple should be blessed by a priest while holding each other's right hand; a legal contract was made in regard to property and rights. During this first phase they did not live together. The wedding was the solemn accomplishment of the contract and the couple began to live together. This shows sexual intercourse wasn't what consummated a marriage.

Therefore, in Matt. 1:18 where it says, "When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child, of the Holy Ghost" the meaning is Mary conceived Jesus "before Her and Joseph began to live together", not "before Her and Joseph began to have sexual intercourse". Therefore, Matt. 1:18 can't be used as proof they had or didn't have sexual relations during their marriage. However, other sources show they mutually decided to be chaste in their marriage.

 

[David in NJ]

In Israel, also at the time of Joseph and Mary, a marriage comprised of two phases: the engagement and the wedding. The rite of the engagement, by which the marriage was essentially established, implied that the young couple should be blessed by a priest while holding each other's right hand; a legal contract was made in regard to property and rights. During this first phase they did not live together. The wedding was the solemn accomplishment of the contract and the couple began to live together. This shows sexual intercourse wasn't what consummated the marriage.

So, in Matt. 1:18 where it says "When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child, of the Holy Ghost" the meaning is Mary conceived Jesus "before Her and Joseph began to live together", not "before they began to have sexual intercourse". Therefore, Matt. 1:18 can't be used as proof they had or didn't have sexual relations during their marriage. However, other sources show they mutually decided to be chaste in their marriage.

espousal

ĭ-spou′zəl, -səl

noun​

1. A betrothal.

After betrothal/espousal, all that remained were three matters: the wedding celebration, the bride’s move into the groom’s house, and the consummation of the marriage/God given holy sexual union."

 

[Sigma]

espousal

ĭ-spou′zəl, -səl

noun​

1. A betrothal.

After betrothal/espousal, all that remained were three matters: the wedding celebration, the bride’s move into the groom’s house, and the consummation of the marriage/God given holy sexual union."

In Israel, also at the time of Joseph and Mary, sexual intercourse isn't what consummated a marriage, but rather a marriage comprised of two phases: the engagement and the wedding. The rite of the engagement, by which the marriage was essentially established, implied that the young couple should be blessed by a priest while holding each other's right hand; a legal contract was made in regard to property and rights. During this first phase they did not live together. The wedding was the solemn accomplishment of the contract and the couple began to live together.

Therefore, in Matt. 1:18 where it says, "When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child, of the Holy Ghost" the meaning is Mary conceived Jesus "before Her and Joseph began to live together", not "before Her and Joseph began to have sexual intercourse". Therefore, Matt. 1:18 can't be used as proof they had or didn't have sexual relations during their marriage. However, other sources show they mutually decided to be chaste in their marriage.

 

[amigo de christo]

espousal

ĭ-spou′zəl, -səl

noun​

1. A betrothal.

After betrothal/espousal, all that remained were three matters: the wedding celebration, the bride’s move into the groom’s house, and the consummation of the marriage/God given holy sexual union."

yep . The consumation of marriage for mary and jospeh came AFTER JESUS was born . But it did come .

 

[Sigma]

yep . The consumation of marriage for mary and jospeh came AFTER JESUS was born . But it did come .

In Israel, also at the time of Joseph and Mary, sexual intercourse isn't what consummated a marriage, but rather a marriage comprised of two phases: the engagement and the wedding. The rite of the engagement, by which the marriage was essentially established, implied that the young couple should be blessed by a priest while holding each other's right hand; a legal contract was made in regard to property and rights. During this first phase they did not live together. The wedding was the solemn accomplishment of the contract and the couple began to live together.

Therefore, in Matt. 1:18 where it says, "When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child, of the Holy Ghost" the meaning is Mary conceived Jesus "before Her and Joseph began to live together", not "before Her and Joseph began to have sexual intercourse". Therefore, Matt. 1:18 can't be used as proof they had or didn't have sexual relations during their marriage. However, other sources show they mutually decided to be chaste in their marriage.

 

[amigo de christo]

In Israel, also at the time of Joseph and Mary, sexual intercourse isn't what consummated a marriage, but rather a marriage comprised of two phases: the engagement and the wedding. The rite of the engagement, by which the marriage was essentially established, implied that the young couple should be blessed by a priest while holding each other's right hand; a legal contract was made in regard to property and rights. During this first phase they did not live together. The wedding was the solemn accomplishment of the contract and the couple began to live together.

Therefore, in Matt. 1:18 where it says, "When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child, of the Holy Ghost" the meaning is Mary conceived Jesus "before Her and Joseph began to live together", not "before they began to have sexual intercourse". Therefore, Matt. 1:18 can't be used as proof they had or didn't have sexual relations during their marriage. However, other sources show they mutually decided to be chaste in their marriage.

As far as other sources showing them to have agreed to be mutually chaste in their marriage . THAT COMES FROM THE RCC .
I already know mary was a virgin who had not known any man and that CHRIST was concieved not by a man
but by the HOLY GHOST . And no intercourse ever once occured DURING her pregnancy either .
BUT after , well my advice is DONT HEED THE RCC on the perptual state of her virginity . Her and jospeh had other kids together .
Lets keep it real . Mary and Joseph having intercourse and other children IN NO WAY DISHONORS MARY one bit .
But what really concerns me greatly is not this idea of perpetual virginity . Though i dont believe it .
What concerns me greatly is the blasphemy i see occuring when certain folks pray , PRAY TO HER and the saints
CAUSE THAT , IS BLASPHEMOUS . TO the CORE its blasphemous and it ought not to be done .
THAT is what terrifies me for those who do such a thing . AND IT aint the only thing the RCC teaches that truly terrifies me
for thier souls either . Time to flee that place and have no unity with it . Rather do all
you can to help the catholics who are stuck in the delusion of her chambers . IF WE LOVE THEM WE WARN THEM
to COME YE OUT FROM AMONGST that place .

 

[Sigma]

What concerns me greatly is the blasphemy i see occuring when certain folks pray , PRAY TO HER and the saints

We do not pray to Jesus's Mother and the saints the way we pray to God. We're asking for their intercession, the way we ask our brothers and sisters for prayers.

 

[Sigma]

AND IT aint the only thing the RCC teaches that truly terrifies me for thier souls either .

What saddens me is how ignorant and misguided you and many others are on Catholicism.

 

[amigo de christo]

We do not pray to Jesus's Mother and the saints the way we pray to God. We're asking for their intercession, the way we ask our brothers and sisters for prayers.

OH MARY , thou who art , YES YOU DO PRAY TO HER . Come on man . man you just made me sound like joe biden .
But come on man . KEEP it real . You all do pray to HER and to the saints .
Rather odd them saints and that mary , WHILE ON EARTH seemed to PRAY ONLY TO GOD .
THEY never prayed to angels or etc . You can rest assured that since we will judge the world
even angels , THAT THE RCC and all who followed it WILLL BE JUDGED by even peter , even mary herself
on that day FOR teaching lies .

 

[Sigma]

OH MARY , thou who art , YES YOU DO PRAY TO HER . Come on man . man you just made me sound like joe biden .
But come on man . KEEP it real . You all do pray to HER and to the saints .

We do not pray to Jesus's Mother and the saints the way we pray to God. We're asking for their intercession, the way we, including you, ask our brothers and sisters for prayers. Why would I lie about that? Do you want to continue telling me what we Catholics are doing, despite our objections, because you want to believe we pray to others like we do to God?

 

[Sigma]

@amigo de christo, would you want me to continually tell you what you believe or do as a protestant, even after you express your objections, and explain why you don't do this or that?

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

If Joseph and Mary were "approved" to have sexual relations, then why was Mary surprised by Gabriels announcement that she would give birth to the son of God?

Help!!!!!

When would Mary and Joseph be approved to have sexual relations? On their first date or on the first day that the customs of the culture of that time? It does not matter because Gabriel got to her before it happened.

If Mary and Joseph were betrothed... and Gabriel came and told her she would be giving birth to the son of God
and she was surprised.... Not bec ause she was talking to an angel, but because in her own words....Luke 1:34
"Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”"

18 Now the birth of Jesus [r]Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been [s]betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. Mathew 1:18

And later when Joseph was concerned about Mary being with child.... I do not think I have to repeat that do I.

When you were engaged to your husband and thinking about your wedding night.... if a messenger, in the for of an angel or even word came to you through a dream that you would be birthing the son of God....would you be surprised.... if you and your intended had not been together and she was old enough to know how babies are made.....

I really need help understanding your meaning....

Thank you

 

[Cassandra]

. Come on man . man you just made me sound like joe biden .

What a crap thing to say esp in a theological argument. Not surprised. Ya try to come off as Godloving and religious, but you just couldn't resist. Are we supposed to laugh? I thought you were discussing something important.

 

[David in NJ]

What saddens me is how ignorant and misguided you and many others are on Catholicism.

All catholics will be eternally saddened when they find out that they believed many lies from the Vatican/RCC.

 

[Sigma]

All catholics will be eternally saddened when they find out that they believed many lies from the Vatican/RCC.

You're only speaking like that because of your misconceptions about Catholicism. One of the things you and I agree on though is Jesus's Mother is not a god and neither of us treat Her as one.

 

[Taken]

While I agree that Mary and Joseph likely consummated their marriage AFTER Jesus was born, the word "til" cannot be used to definitively proclaim that the situation

Disagree.

[Matthew 12:20 KJV] "A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory."

Does Matthew 12:20 mean that AFTER God sends forth judgement unto victory, that THEN A bruised reed WILL break, and smoking flax MUST BE quenched? Does it just mean that the "bruising" and "quenching" will not happen BEFORE "judgement" with no indication one way or the other about what happens after?

I believe there IS scriptural testimony…
FORETOLD…ALREADY OCCURRED…
Jesus’ Body Shall Be Bruised…
* Gen 3:15
Jesus’ Body Shall Not suffer broken bones…
* Psalm 34:20
* John 19:36
Jesus’ Body Did Not suffer broken bones…
* John 19:33

FORETOLD…SHALL BE:
Human men (standing WITH and IN ) Christ Jesus, SHALL BE HEALED by (Because of) His (Jesus’) wounds”.
1 Pet 2:24

FORETOLD…SHALL BE
Human men SHALL “Suffer” tribulations, ie. hardships AND “bodily wounding”…by the encouragement OF Satan’s Temptations AND the ACTS of human men acting on Satan’s Temptations).
* a study of multiple Scriptures.

* Matt 12: Foreshadowing human men’s plight of influence OF Satan, As Long As Mankind and Satan Occupy this World….ALSO, the Saving Grace of God revealing A NEW Testimony FOR human men TO Become SAVED FROM “division and separation” FROM God, BEFORE THEIR PHYSICAL DEATH…..By, Through, Of….the Power of God; ie Christ the Lord Jesus.

* Matt: 12: (and other Scriptures expounding);
Gods Power SUPERSEDES Satan’s power.
Satan SHALL BE Crushed.
* Rom 16:20

BEFORE God’s Creation and Making of Angels, of Mankind…God Himself ALREADY KNEW what Angels and Mankind WOULD FREELY “CHOOSE”….and ALREADY Prepared… A Consequence For Angels AND Mankind’s “CHOICES”…(be their choices…good or evil…good or wicked).

The “RESULTS” of Angels and Mankind’s choices AFFECT “THEM” in during their “ALIVE” present state of “being”.

The “FINAL RESULTS” of Angels and Mankind’s choices “SHALL AFFECT THEM”…
“ETERNALLY”….AFTER Gods (future, YET to come)…“JUDGEMENTS”….
“WHICH” Shall be Based on EVIDENCE, “recorded IN Gods Books of Records, KEPT IN Heaven.
“TILL”…Yet to be manifested.

Glory to God, Just, Faithful and True,
Taken

 

[Taken]

False Teaching: Mary died a virgin. Biblical Proof Mary had children.​

OP ^

AGREE.

Mary and Joseph were married.

Nothing whatsoever scripturally teaches or slightly indicates…
* THAT…Mary Dishonored Gods teaching…
For Husbands and wives to Multiply.
* THAT….Mary Dishonored Gods teaching…
For Wives to submit to their Husbands.
* THAT….Joseph Dishonored Gods teaching..
To “WAIT” To “consummate” his marriage TO Mary….” ‘TILL’ AFTER the NATURAL BIRTH of the SUPERNATURAL BABE IN her Womb”.
* THAT….Joesph Dishonored Gods teaching
To “Live with”, “Care for”, his WIFE (Mary), AND Call the BABE born of his Wife Mary…JESUS.

Human nature is inquisitive seeking Knowledge AND seeking Understanding OF the knowledge….EVEN TO THE POINT…of substituting Mindful Psychic Guesswork FOR FACTS….then presenting Mindful Psychic Guesswork AS FACTS.

Considering the FACT…Anciently AND Historically…the MAJORITY of men and woman World Wide WERE “illiterate”… <—> Unable to READ or WRITE, and VERY LITTLE interest, or OPPORTUNITY to Have Access, or to Own “WRITTEN” books, manuscripts, documents or the likes thereof. Very FEW could even manage to WRITE or recognize their own WRITTEN “Name”!

Nothing IN Scripture indicates or suggests Joseph was previously married (for some 40 years) to another woman and had children with her (before she supposedly died) AND that he was nearing the age of 90 years old and married a young maiden (of an age about 12-14 years old) …

REALLY…??
Nah! Nothing which Scripture teaches.

A HOAX out of the psychic MINDS of men…..“Appointed to TEACH ILLITERATE men EAGER to Hear Word of God”….But WITHOUT the means to VERIFY what they heard.

Some present World Nations of the People at Large are STILL drowning IN “illiteracy”.
The World Wide “push” FOR EDUCATION…
“Sounds GOOD” on the “surface”.

The Scriptural POINT of EDUCATION, was ALWAYS FOR an individual to VERIFY what he is Taught BY HEARING About the Lord God, TO THEN BE VERIFIED by that individual ACCORDING TO Scripture.

This Modern world Today, instead TEACHES,
Psychology, Mindful Guesswork Education IS paramount, steady and trustworthy. Gag!

Yes - Joseph and Mary were Wedded in Marriage.
Yes - Joseph was instructed to WAIT to consummate their Marriage UNTIL AFTER the birth of Jesus.
Yes - Joseph complied and WAITED.
Yes - Joseph and Mary were Faithful, Multiplied and produced Offspring.

No ~ Long drawn out express details of Mary and Joseph Having Sexual Intercourse WAS Neither revealed IN Scripture or Necessary! They were married, faithful and multiplied!

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[David in NJ]

You're only speaking like that because of your misconceptions about Catholicism. One of the things you and I agree on though is Jesus's Mother is not a god and neither of us treat Her as one.

People around the world pray to many different gods, whatever they may be.

When you pray to Mary you are elevating her thru "veneration" to goddess status and worship, thus the statues made in her supposed likeness along with pagan repetitious praying.

The rosary beads are of pagan origin, just as the LORD Jesus said; "Do not pray repetitiously as the pagans do"

Statues of Mary are of pagan origin and forbidden by God.

Therefore you violate three direct commandments of God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Please, all of you who contend that Mary did indeed remain a virgin until her death... AND had no more children explain what is meant by Luke 2:7 ... as recorded in the many assorted translations below.
I had to cut the back parts of the verses as I was exceeding the size accepted of 10,000 characters

THE FIRST 6 LINKS BELOW ARE FROM 6 DIFFERENT CATHOLIC SOURCES AND TRANSLATIONS INTO ENGLISH... INCLUDING #6 THE VATICAN ENGLISH TRANSLATION

Perhaps it is just me but I always had thought that if there was a first there would have been at least a second?

Following these is one posted commentary.

https://www.

catholic.org/bible/book.php?id=49&bible_chapter=2
7 and she gave birth to a son, her first-born.

https://bible.

usccb.org/bible United States Conference of Catholic Bishops
7and she gave birth to her firstborn son.*

https://mycatholic.life/bible/
7 and she gave birth to her firstborn son.

Bible Hub: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages

Online Bible Study Suite. Topical, Greek and Hebrew study tools, plus concordances, commentaries, sermons and devotionals.

biblehub.com

/catholic/
7She gave birth to her first son,

BibleGateway.com - 232 online Bibles in 74 languages, in text and audio format.

www.biblegateway.com

New-Revised-Standard-Version-Catholic-Edition-NRSVCE-Bible
7 And she gave birth to her firstborn son

https://www

.vatican.va/archive/bible/index.htm
7 and she gave birth to her firstborn son. 3

Greek English Interlinear :Luke 2 Interlinear Bible
And she brought forth the son of her the firstborn

New International Version
and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son.

New Living Translation
She gave birth to her firstborn son.

English Standard Version
And she gave birth to her firstborn son

Berean Standard Bible
And she gave birth to her firstborn, a Son.

Berean Literal Bible
And she brought forth her firstborn son,

King James Bible
And she brought forth her firstborn son,

New King James Version
And she brought forth her firstborn Son,

New American Standard Bible
And she gave birth to her firstborn son;

NASB 1995
And she gave birth to her firstborn son;

NASB 1977
And she gave birth to her first-born son;

Legacy Standard Bible
And she gave birth to her firstborn son;

Amplified Bible
and she gave birth to her Son, her firstborn;

Christian Standard Bible
Then she gave birth to her firstborn son,

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Then she gave birth to her firstborn Son,

American Standard Version
And she brought forth her firstborn son;

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And she brought forth her firstborn Son

Contemporary English Version
she gave birth to her first-born son.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And she brought forth her firstborn son,

English Revised Version
And she brought forth her firstborn son;

GOD'S WORD® Translation
She gave birth to her firstborn son.

Good News Translation
She gave birth to her first son,

International Standard Version
and she gave birth to her first child, a son.

Literal Standard Version
and she brought forth her Son—the firstborn,

Majority Standard Bible
And she gave birth to her firstborn, a Son.

New American Bible
and she gave birth to her firstborn son.

NET Bible
And she gave birth to her firstborn son

New Revised Standard Version
And she gave birth to her firstborn son

New Heart English Bible
And she gave birth to her firstborn son,

Webster's Bible Translation
And she brought forth her first-born son,

Weymouth New Testament
and she gave birth to her first-born son,

World English Bible
She gave birth to her firstborn son.

Young's Literal Translation
and she brought forth her son -- the first-born,

Here is a biblical commentary with it's link links.
There are more to be provided but I was afraid the 10,000 character limit would not permit them.

What does Matthew 1:25 mean? | BibleRef.com

but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he named Him Jesus. - What is the meaning of Matthew 1:25?

www.bibleref.com

What does Matthew 1:25 mean?​

This verse completes a statement begun in the previous verse, which highlights Joseph's remarkable faith (Matthew 1:24). While Luke's telling of the birth of Jesus focuses on Mary's experience, Matthew considers the events from Joseph's perspective.

An honorable and God-fearing man in that culture could have quietly ended this betrothal with a clear conscience. He was not obligated to follow through on his commitment to marry a woman found to be pregnant by another man. Joseph, though, decided he was obligated after being told the real story of what was going on by an angel of the Lord in a dream (Matthew 1:19–21). Mary, still a virgin, carried "God with us," the Savior (Matthew 1:22–23).

Joseph obeyed God, likely at the cost of his own reputation—rumors about Jesus' birth seem to have persisted during His ministry (John 8:19; 8:41–42). He also waived his legal rights to avoid responsibility for Mary or her child. Instead of divorcing her or even waiting for the time of betrothal to end, Joseph immediately took Mary home to live with him. Not only would this minimize any scandal, it allowed Joseph to begin his work of providing for his pregnant wife and the child Messiah.

Matthew makes clear in this verse, though, that Joseph did not have sex with Mary until after Jesus was born. The text uses the biblical euphemism for sex "know." Joseph "knew her not." Matthew also does not suggest that Joseph never had sex with Mary, as some traditions teach. They experienced regular marital relations after the birth of Jesus and had several children together in the natural way (Matthew 13:55–57; Mark 3:31–32).

Joseph also showed that he heard and understood God's command through the angel in his dream by naming the baby Jesus. Jesus is derived from the same Hebrew name from which we get "Joshua," and means "Yahweh saves." Yahweh is a Hebrew name for God.

 

[amigo de christo]

You're only speaking like that because of your misconceptions about Catholicism. One of the things you and I agree on though is Jesus's Mother is not a god and neither of us treat Her as one.

You pray to her , So yes you do . Pray to GOD in JESUS name . HE IS GOD . pray not to angels , to saints
or to any other . Pray TO GOD .