You would bow before a king out of reverence and honor, not because you view them as a god. In the same way, we bow to Jesus's Mother out of reverence and honor, not because we view her as a god. And, when we pray before Mary we're asking for Her intercession, the way we ask our brothers and sisters for prayers.
False Teaching: Mary died a virgin. Biblical Proof Mary had children.
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You would bow before a king out of reverence and honor, not because you view them as a god. In the same way, we bow to Jesus's Mother out of reverence and honor, not because we view her as a god. And, when we pray before Mary we're asking for Her intercession, the way we ask our brothers and sisters for prayers.
Not according to Catholics. We can't make you understand what veneration, reverence, and honor means and looks like.
David in NJ
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This is where you are wrong yet again for i FULLY understand.
@David in NJ was conceived by married Catholics Len & Mary and David was FULLY baptized a catholic and FULLY confirmed a catholic particpating in the Eucharist and Confession as well as many of the Catholic rituals.
Taking part in Catholic activities has no bearing on your ability to recognize and understand the difference between viewing someone as a god and viewing someone worthy of veneration. The Catholic Church teaches there's only one God and we do not recognize Mary as God. So, if you were truly brought up in Catholicism, then you'd know that.
David in NJ
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Catholic veneration of Mary is worship of Mary = i KNOW
Now is the Time for you to turn away from idols and religion and surrender your complete heart/mind/soul unto JESUS.
We don't view Her as a god, so we don't worship Her as one. If you were truly brought up in Catholicism, then you'd know that.
David in NJ
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i spent my years in Catholic school, Catholic church, praying to Mary, receiving the eucharist and so on.
i FULLY know what it means to pray to Mary, as i did for many years.
As a catholic to you i urge you to turn away from the idolatry of catholicism and surrender your life to CHRIST that you may receive His Forgiveness and the Holy Spirit of Truth.
And despite you not being a Catholic anymore, and me still being a Catholic, we agree Mary is not a god, and thus neither of us treat Her as one. :]
David in NJ
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Mary cannot help you, neither does she hear yours or anyone's prayers.
Please read the Book of Hebrews as it perfectly applies to catholics as well.
Receive the only Peace that can only be found in the LORD Jesus Christ.
David in NJ
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I understand you currently believe that, but I think despite that disagreement, it's more important we agree Mary is not a god, and thus neither of us treat Her as one. :]
Good night, brother
Marymog
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Seriously....What man taught you that? Jesus didn't...that is unless you are suggesting that He is visiting you and talking to you
Marymog
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Protestant defined: a member of any of several church denominations denying the universal authority of the Pope and affirming the Reformation principles of justification by faith alone, the priesthood of all believers, and the primacy of the Bible as the only source of revealed truth
Soooo you accept the "universal authority of the Pope"?
Marymog
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If Joseph and Mary were "approved" to have sexual relations, then why was Mary surprised by Gabriels announcement that she would give birth to the son of God?
David in NJ
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GOOD Question
At that moment in the time of Joseph and Mary, they were "betrothed" and the official ceremonial wedding did not yet take place.
Matthew 1:18-22
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly. But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
NOTICE it says "before they came together"
FACT = the scripture declares that Joseph and Mary came together after Jesus was born
You believe that Matt. 1:25 plainly states that Joseph and Mary didn't have intercourse and more children until after Mary gave birth to Jesus, but it doesn't; rather, it states they didn't have intercourse "until she brought forth her firstborn son." The word "until" has multiple definitions, not only the one you're inferring by your insertion of the word "after." For the sake of argument, say the word "until" was used to mean Joseph and Mary had intercourse after Jesus's birth, that in itself wouldn't prove Mary bore more children because, for example, having vaginal intercourse doesn't lead to procreation for some men and women. Sometimes the woman is barren or the man is sterile, etc. Food for thought since you use Matt. 1:25 as proof Joseph and Mary had children together.
Furthermore, your interpretation that the gospel writer, after writing about the long-anticipated messianic prophecy coming to fruition, basically threw in the tidbit, "After the birth of the Savior, Joseph had intercourse with Mary and 6+ more kids," at the end is quite random. It also isn't in line with the context of Matt. 1:20-25: "But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared to him in his sleep, saying: Joseph, son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus. For he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done that it might be fulfilled that which the Lord spoke by the prophet, saying: Behold, a virgin shall be with child and bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. And Joseph, rising up from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and took to him his wife. And he knew her not until she brought forth her firstborn son, and he called his name Jesus."
The context of Matt. 1:25 is Joseph's accepting as his spouse the virgin who conceived the Savior of mankind by the Holy Spirit. The gospel writer concludes the passage by stating that Joseph didn't have intercourse with Mary until Jesus's birth, to dispel any belief that he was the father. In other words, since the gospel writer's intent at the end was to show what Joseph didn't do until a certain point, so as to dispel any belief that Jesus was conceived by him, and not begotten by the Holy Spirit, they stated he remained chaste until Jesus's birth. Why would implying Joseph had or didn't have intercourse with Mary after Jesus's birth be relevant, when it's only about Jesus's paternal origin? It's not relevant, which is another reason why the definition of "until" that you're applying doesn't fit here, but rather "up to the time that," because it informs us what Joseph didn't do until a certain point, not what occurred after that point. The importance of Matt. 1:20-25 is that it primarily pertains to the messianic prophecy, not the sexual relationship, or lack thereof, between Joseph and Mary.
The word "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) has multiple definitions, e.g., "fellow-countryman", "disciple/follower", "one of the same faith", and "kinsman", e.g., sibling, cousin, nephew, or uncle, etc. The apostle Paul is referring to apostle James of Alphaeus, who was also Jesus's brother as in kinsman, specifically His cousin, which I showed to be the case in this thread of mine.
I didn't say the context doesn't, I said the word "ἀδελφοὶ" in itself doesn't indicate which of its definitions applies to it in Jn. 7:3;5. And, again, the word "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) has multiple definitions, e.g., "fellow-countryman", "disciple/follower", "one of the same faith", and "kinsman", e.g., sibling, cousin, nephew, or uncle, etc.
We agree the definition "kinsman" applies to the brothers in Jn. 7:3;5, but a kinsman could be a sibling, cousin, nephew, or uncle, etc. We disagree on the type of kinship that applies. You say the type of kinship that applies is siblings, but you need to show it does. How are you going to do that using the books that make up the Bible? They each lack the information you need.
The scriptural information we have from Jesus of that scene in the book The Poem of the Man-God shows His brothers in Jn. 7:3;5 were two of His kinsmen, specifically two of His four cousins, Joseph and Simon of Alphaeus, who at that time were unbelievers, though they later came to believe (The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. IV, ch. 476, pp. 249-253).
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Marymog
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Hey David,
A little bit of research shows that what you have been taught is wrong. Mary and Joseph were legally married when they were betrothed, and they were free to have sexual relations. But they didn't and they didn't plan on it. The best indicator that they did not plan on having sex is when Mary asked the angel HOW she was going to have a child since she did not know man. If she had plans to have sex with Joseph she would have assumed that Joseph was going to be the father. Kapish?
What Does Betroth Mean? Bible Definition and References Betrothal - Holman Bible Dictionary -
Notice how the passage you quote says "Joseph her husband" and "Mary your wife"????????
At no point EVER does Scripture EVER say that Joseph and Mary had other children. It's simply not there. That is why this debate has been raging for many years.
In Israel, also at the time of Joseph and Mary, a marriage comprised of two phases: the engagement and the wedding. The rite of the engagement, by which the marriage was essentially established, implied that the young couple should be blessed by a priest while holding each other's right hand; a legal contract was made in regard to property and rights. During this first phase they did not live together. The wedding was the solemn accomplishment of the contract and the couple began to live together. So, in Matt. 1:18 where it says "When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child, of the Holy Ghost" the meaning is Mary conceived Jesus before Her and Joseph began to live together, which doesn't prove they had sexual relations after doing so.
David in NJ
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"Betrothal in most eras of Bible history involved two families in a formal contract, and that contract was as binding as marriage itself. Betrothal then was more of a business transaction between two families than a personal, romantic choice. Dowry or bride price agreements were included, so that a broken engagement required repayment of the dowry. After betrothal, all that remained were three matters: the wedding celebration, the bride’s move into the groom’s house, and the consummation of the marriage."
Post #155 is correct, accurate and scriptural truth.
David in NJ
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During Jesus time day on earth the engagement is called "betrothed"
What proves they had sexual union after Jesus was born is God's Holy Marriage Commandment to Joseph and Mary.
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