Christian baker and transgender cake lawsuit

[BarneyFife]

No, seriously.

What other course could I possibly take as a believer in Christ?

Even beyond that I was raised to be helpful to anyone I meet who's in need.

Do you actually think you know me well enough to assume that I would do otherwise?

Do you think there's a special DNA sequence that makes anyone who believes sin should be discouraged, and that the bands of wickedness that fasten the children of wrath should be loosened rather than tightened, is automatically triggered by a stupid bumper sticker and would be helpless to summon the compassion required to help a child of wrath (who also just happens to be a fellow child of God) escape freezing to death?

.

 

[Scott Downey]

All are children of God.
All are born by God's will as sinners first.

All are not children of God, no one scripturally is a child of God after they sin willfully and all people will sin.
You are only a child of God when God makes you born again. Only then are you in the family of God.
God does not condemn his children, His family they are made accepted into His beloved as adopted children, refer to Ephesians 2.
Someone who is 'OF GOD' means they are born of the Spirit of God and will not come into judgement but hav passed from death into life.

Only the devil and the devil's children perish in hell as they are 'children of wrath', hell bound sinners who follow after and listen to Satan, and are disobedient to God.

If all are children of God, then why would God bother making anyone 'born again' by His Spirit?
Hell, eternal destruction and the second death as Christ says was made for the Devil and His angels, unbelieving people go there also.

John 5

Life and Judgment Are Through the Son​

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

Ephesians 2
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

 

[Scott Downey]

The Eternally Blessed God chose to bless us with salvation before time began, but not the others.
Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He [a]made us accepted in the Beloved.

1 Peter 1

A Heavenly Inheritance​

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance [b]incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Timothy 2
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher [c]of the Gentiles. 12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

 

[BarneyFife]

All are not children of God, no one scripturally is a child of God after they sin willfully and all people will sin.
You are only a child of God when God makes you born again. Only then are you in the family of God.
God does not condemn his children, His family they are made accepted into His beloved as adopted children, refer to Ephesians 2.
Someone who is 'OF GOD' means they are born of the Spirit of God and will not come into judgement but hav passed from death into life.

Only the devil and the devil's children perish in hell as they are 'children of wrath', hell bound sinners who follow after and listen to Satan, and are disobedient to God.

If all are children of God, then why would God bother making anyone 'born again' by His Spirit?
Hell, eternal destruction and the second death as Christ says was made for the Devil and His angels, unbelieving people go there also.

John 5

Life and Judgment Are Through the Son​

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

Ephesians 2
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

The Eternally Blessed God chose to bless us with salvation before time began, but not the others.
Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He [a]made us accepted in the Beloved.

1 Peter 1

A Heavenly Inheritance​

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance [b]incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Timothy 2
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher [c]of the Gentiles. 12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

There are two senses in which one can be considered a child of God:

1) By birth, through Adam, the son of God​

​

2) By rebirth, through Christ, the Son of God, the second Adam​

It's really not that hard to see this in the Bible.

...unless one is inclined to keep all who have not yet joined themselves with Christ in heavenly places separate, in Hell, so to speak.

.

 

[Scott Downey]

There are two senses in which one can be considered a child of God:

1) By birth, through Adam, the son of God​

​

2) By rebirth, through Christ, the Son of God, the second Adam​

It's really not that hard to see this in the Bible.

...unless one is inclined to keep all who have not yet joined themselves with Christ in heavenly places separate, in Hell, so to speak.

.

Natural birth does not get you to heaven though. God does not condemn His children to hell.
You cannot be both a child of God who is in heaven above and a child of the devil who is from below of the world simultaneously.
Satan was kicked out of heaven for good reasons. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

As Jesus said
22 So the Jews said, “Will He kill Himself, because He says, ‘Where I go you cannot come’?”

23 And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

But as you notice, Jesus was talking not talking to little children who believe in Him.
Matthew 18:3
and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Mark 10:14
But when Jesus saw it, He was greatly displeased and said to them, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God.

1 John 2
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God [a]is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

Either you know Him as a child of God, or you are of the world. Those of the world are not of God, do not know God or Christ and are not saved. They do not keep His commandments AND HIS WORDS; they are not His. God's command is that you repent and believe in His Son.

Acts 17
30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

 

[bluedragon]

Not at all.
I'm a realist.

I walk in the very real saving light of my Lord Christ. I am bathed in his eternal everlasting love and grace in this world where my adversary is lord, and walks too as he seeks souls to devour.

Jesus calls whom he will to be saved. No one finds him unless he, who is my Father, brings them into his grace. And our fold.

I journey among sinners daily. I work with them, and with my brothers and sisters in Christ.

If I walk with false pride thinking I am tasked to love the sinner but hate their sins, I am a liar when I say I journey with my God who is love.

Because he loves to hate those who can know no better than their fallen first nature let's them to be. Dead, to his passion and grace, his truth, because they are born to be separated, by his will, from him first.
Really?

I am a poor light in that darkness if I cast someone away because I judge them for their sins as unworthy of respect when I have chosen to be a servant of and to the public.

I arrive as a tow man to a car with two flats. It is winter, freezing, snowing lightly but with below freezing temperatures approaching . And a blizzard brewing in a matter of hours.

As I pull up to the car I see a bumper sticker that messages a gay pride slogan.And it has a rainbow background.

LOVE IS LOVE.​

Do I change their tires? If only one spare, do I change one and leave them there to face the blizzard? Not knowing if or when another tow company will reach them? What if that company feels the same way?

Yuk, gay sinner women! No way!

And leaves. Or, worse, do I tell them they must repent of their sin before I can help?

We live Christ by example.

Jesus died for sinners.

And we have the nerve to say we won't bake them a cake?

I'll say it again for both of you to understand. The majority of people walk into that bakery to buy a cake. This group walks in to demolish Christianity .....until you understand the motive of the activists ......including some of our trolls .....I suggest you sit down with a Pastor and follow his guidance ......instead of making excuses for the activists ....

 

[BarneyFife]

The parable of the good Samaritan seems an appropriate reminder at this point.

It certainly is.

The Pharisees couldn't even bring themselves to say the word "Samaritan" in answer to Christ's question to them.

Could you say "The conservative Christian" if you saw one help an LGBT child of God in need and Christ asked you who their neighbor was?

I hope so.

.

 

[BarneyFife]

Natural birth does not get you to heaven though. God does not condemn His children to hell.
You cannot be both a child of God who is in heaven above and a child of the devil who is from below of the world simultaneously.
Satan was kicked out of heaven for good reasons. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

As Jesus said
22 So the Jews said, “Will He kill Himself, because He says, ‘Where I go you cannot come’?”

23 And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

But as you notice, Jesus was talking not talking to little children who believe in Him.
Matthew 18:3
and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Mark 10:14
But when Jesus saw it, He was greatly displeased and said to them, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God.

1 John 2
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God [a]is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

Either you know Him as a child of God, or you are of the world. Those of the world are not of God, do not know God or Christ and are not saved. They do not keep His commandments AND HIS WORDS; they are not His. God's command is that you repent and believe in His Son.

Acts 17
30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

...none of which changes the fact that Scripture teaches there are two ways in which a person can be considered a child of God.

And only one of them ensures citizenship in Heaven and requires conversion.

.

 

[BarneyFife]

@TinMan

Found a fellow mindreader, have we? :)

.

 

[bluedragon]

The "Christian baker" has voluntarily entered into (contracted with) Caesar's world of commerce, thus the baker must render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. Money (rather, what money leads to i.e. power) drives that machine. NO ONE buys or sells (i.e. conducts or participates in commerce -- profiteering) without allegiance to the beast.

The takeaway is that no man can serve two masters; thus the baker finds himself in a jam.

Rather, we are to come out from among them and be separate.
[/QUO


Trouble with your argument ....If this was a Dictatorship ......you have an argument. WE Have a Constitution that grants the right to not only follow the religion of our choice to practice it as we are directed .......Ceasar has no dog in the hunt. SCOTUS declared the Baker doesn't have to design a cake for an ACTIVIST. SCOTUS declared that a web site designer doesn't have to design for a gay ACTIVIST group ......

Not doing too good in Debate 101 ......

 

[atpollard]

We are not endorsing sin when we read an electric meter at a home where a Transsexual lives. We're doing our job for our employer, the electric company.

The "Job" of a Priest is to perform wedding ceremonies ... (I trust you can see where this was going).

The issue is BEING FORCED TO DO THINGS AGAINST YOUR WILL. The technical terms for that are SLAVERY and OPPRESSION. It is not a "right to refuse to do your job" (although people do have that right, just as their employer has the right to terminate their employment for refusing to do their job), it is the FREEDOM to follow your conscience and not be compelled to perform actions you believe are wrong.

However, this was a point of LAW and the SCOTUS has already ruled on that Point of Law. Your or my agreement or disagreement is irrelevant. One must amend the Constitution to remove a RIGHT from it. [Good luck with that ... actually, I don't mean it ... I hope you fail to remove any Constitutional Rights].

 

[atpollard]

If a business is refusing service to people just because they are a minority then yes that is bigoted.

Does the baker make cakes depicting violent crimes for anyone? No? Imagine that.


Then maybe you should seek psychiatric help.

From the news article in the OP:

"At Masterpiece Cakeshop, we serve everybody… we just can't express every message that people want us to with our custom cakes," Phillips told Fox News Digital in an interview. ​

... on the remote chance the FACTS mattered.

 

[atpollard]

...none of which changes the fact that Scripture teaches there are two ways in which a person can be considered a child of God.

And only one of them ensures citizenship in Heaven and requires conversion.

.

Before we become "children of God" (salvation), are all not "sons of disobedience" and "children of wrath" (Ephesians 2:1-3)?

[NASB] 1 And you were dead in your offenses and sins, 2 in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest.​

​

[I was just wondering what verse you had in mind for "everyone is a child of God".]

 

[Scott Downey]

...none of which changes the fact that Scripture teaches there are two ways in which a person can be considered a child of God.

And only one of them ensures citizenship in Heaven and requires conversion.

.

John 1
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That[b] was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His [c]own, and His [d]own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the [e]right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Let's quit teaching personal opinions....
ONLY those who are born again, saved, have the RIGHT to be called children of God, scripture clearly is written, it is on you to believe this or not. Assigning the unbelieving to children of God status is calling God a liar.
I have shown this in many different ways in the scripture, and all you are telling me is personal opinions. Logically who should I believe the scripture or what you say.

Come on now, think about what you are saying as it is contrary to scripture.

 

[marks]

If it goes against their conscience, why would I want to force them to do it?

The difference is, is it about the cake, or the agenda?

Much love!

 

[Scott Downey]

If it goes against their conscience, why would I want to force them to do it?

The difference is, is it about the cake, or the agenda?

Much love!

I think they seek out things just like this to draw attention to their agenda of acceptance, in that they want to force Christians and anyone opposed to that LGBTQ+ lifestlye to accept and approve of them and if they dont, make them pay heavy costs.

 

[Scott Downey]

 

[BarneyFife]

Before we become "children of God" (salvation), are all not "sons of disobedience" and "children of wrath" (Ephesians 2:1-3)?

[NASB] 1 And you were dead in your offenses and sins, 2 in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest.​

​

[I was just wondering what verse you had in mind for "everyone is a child of God".]

Hi, and thanks for your very courteous reply.

I confess it's not the kind of thing that can be substantiated with a directly worded proof text.

However, in 1 Corinthians 15, the parallel between carnal and spiritual life in Adam and Christ is not lost on me.

We are all sons of the first Adam whose Father is God in Christ. Truly, it was Christ Himself who formed Adam from the dust of the ground. No one can deny lineage from Adam.

And, to be sure, the distinct title of "sons of God" (if one prefers to hold it up as a thing that is primarily exclusive in nature) in John 1 is indeed not ascribable to the "children of wrath" in Ephesians 2:3.

But to go too far in that direction constitutes a spiritual kinship with the Prodigal Son's disgruntled brother which could ultimately disqualify the very ones who covet the title so dearly.

God is not barring the way to his table by the means of these labels that we are so anxious to keep to ourselves.

Many of those who are so anxious to teach this will tell you that the disciples were unconverted before Pentecost, as are the children of wrath.

But Jesus called them children (Mark 10:24, Luke 5:34, John 13:33, John 21:5), friends, and brothers.

Too many are intent on guarding their various cherished doctrines to make sure they are compatible with each other.

And the Bible is full of descriptions of His loving care for all His creation. It is a study well worth the doing.

Didn't mean for this to turn into a sermon (well, then again, maybe I did, but not directed at any one person).
Sorry.

.

 

[atpollard]

If we refuse to bake a cake because the perspective bakery customer is asking for a cake that glorifies sin, the baker must then refuse children's birthday cakes for a parent customer who is not wearing a wedding ring.

As a Caucasian baker they must refuse service to other races, because we are not to mix with other tribes.

Unless the BAKER just doesn't want people telling him/her what they MUST bake ... that could be the reason they left Eastern Europe e when the Soviet Union fell and moved to America where they were told they would be free from people telling them what they HAD TO DO.

 

[atpollard]

Hi, and thanks for your very courteous reply.

I confess it's not the kind of thing that can be substantiated with a directly worded proof text.

However, in 1 Corinthians 15, the parallel between carnal and spiritual life in Adam and Christ is not lost on me.

We are all sons of the first Adam whose Father is God in Christ. Truly, it was Christ Himself who formed Adam from the dust of the ground. No one can deny lineage from Adam.

And, to be sure, the distinct title of "sons of God" (if one prefers to hold it up as a thing that is primarily exclusive in nature) in John 1 is indeed not ascribable to the "children of wrath" in Ephesians 2:3.

But to go too far in that direction constitutes a spiritual kinship with the Prodigal Son's disgruntled brother which could ultimately disqualify the very ones who covet the title so dearly.

God is not barring the way to his table by the means of these labels that we are so anxious to keep to ourselves.

Many of those who are so anxious to teach this will tell you that the disciples were unconverted before Pentecost, as are the children of wrath.

But Jesus called them children (Mark 10:24, Luke 5:34, John 13:33, John 21:5), friends, and brothers.

Too many are intent on guarding their various cherished doctrines to make sure they are compatible with each other.

And the Bible is full of descriptions of His loving care for all His creation. It is a study well worth the doing.

Didn't mean for this to turn into a sermon (well, then again, maybe I did, but not directed at any one person).
Sorry.

.

OK, ... so it is more of an Imageo Dei sort of thing that grants all mankind a familial relationship (even if we are the prodigal son) right from birth (as children of Adam, the son of God).